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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: Icelander]
    #19202149 - 11/28/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I completely agree that atheists are lacking in imagination.




Just because we aren't imagining a god doesn't mean we don't use our imagination.




The problem with the religious and imagination imo is they often have an overactive imagination and whatever they do imagine they imagine to be correct based solely on how comfortable it makes them feel. They lack courage imo.




Every problem with the ego, is naturally going to exist in religion because religion attempts to give us a path beyond ego. How could it possibly do that without every form of ego's neuroticism being expressed somewhere in religion?

But in regards to having an over active imagination, I want to point you to the orthodox church. Rather than having an over active imagination, the orthodox fathers teach us that we are to reject everything that stems from the imagination. Only in this way, can we become truly in tune with ourselves free from preconcieved notions about what we are and what should be. The orthodox fathers teach us to repeat the Jesus prayer uncreasingly and reject any thoughts or images that enter our minds (even a vision of Christ himself) as unsatisfactory. In this way, we create space within ourselves so that the Light from the Inner Christ may enter. Somehow I get the feeling that this is a little different from the "Christianity" in which you were raised.

Rather than lacking courage, you must be exceptionally courage to traverse this path, to enter through the narrow gate that leadeth to life. There is nothing courageous about clinging to ego. That is stupidity.


Edited by Deviate (11/28/13 07:05 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19202188 - 11/28/13 07:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
No, trapped in an essentially materialistic world-view, the materialist often embraces a 19th century version of scientific positivism. Despite the most profound discoveries of 21st century quantum physics which has learned that observation of quanta has an effect on its paradoxical wave-particle manifestations, and hence that consciousness is part of the gestalt of experimentation, atheists feel safe in 'the box' of their unimaginative little world views.




Actually, no.  Observation collapses the wave function not because the observer is conscious, but rather because any act of observation necessarily involves interacting with the thing being observed.  A video camera observing a cat necessarily collapses the cat's wave function because for the observation to take place, photons have to bounce off the cat and return to the camera lens, and the bouncing of photons off the cat necessarily interferes with the cat.  No consciousness needed.  :shrug:

I see New Age proponents try to use this fallacious misunderstanding of quantum mechanics all the time, but if you actually read the physics you'll see that nothing even mentions consciousness.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19202202 - 11/28/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Much if not most religion seems to be based on the 'Feeling Function,' which reflects the multitude's general bias in life, as well as a general lack of critical thinking. That is why constitutionally, I could never get into any of that Bhakti Yoga, Krishna Consciousness, or for that  matter, Christian hymn-singing/praising stuff. Forgetaboudit. Religion for me has always been about peeling away movement, sensations, feeling, thoughts, and finally the 'I' thought until bare attention alone remains. But this is the 'Intuitive Function' that remains after the 'Thinking Function' has done its reductive work of 'peeling.' One Intuits Emptiness/Fullness, the Void/Pleroma, it is not Sensed, Felt, or Thought.





To each their own but that is exactly what Bhakti/hymn singing does. It takes your attention off your small ego self and places it on the all pervading divine presence in which there is no separate "I".  By my personality, I also had great difficulty with devotional type things and that is why the eastern advaita vedenta teachings attracted me so much. But a closer look at these teachings reveals that Bhakti is the same thing thing as self inquiry. Once I realized that, i was able to reap the benefits of hymn singing because I realized the difference was only in my mind.

Hymn signing and other devotional practices can be invaluable if you ever find yourself stuck in a place where you are unable to control your mind's wandering through other means. It's all well and good to talk about peeling away movement, thoughts,feelings and sensations, but what if your mind is too scattered to actually do any of that? It sounds like you have not had to deal with that difficulty, but I did and I would have been lost without Bhakti.


Edited by Deviate (11/28/13 07:17 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: Deviate]
    #19202250 - 11/28/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
I completely agree that atheists are lacking in imagination.




Just because we aren't imagining a god doesn't mean we don't use our imagination.




The problem with the religious and imagination imo is they often have an overactive imagination and whatever they do imagine they imagine to be correct based solely on how comfortable it makes them feel. They lack courage imo.




Every problem with the ego, is naturally going to exist in religion because religion attempts to give us a path beyond ego. How could it possibly do that without every form of ego's neuroticism being expressed somewhere in religion?

But in regards to having an over active imagination, I want to point you to the orthodox church. Rather than having an over active imagination, the orthodox fathers teach us that we are to reject everything that stems from the imagination. Only in this way, can we become truly in tune with ourselves free from preconcieved notions about what we are and what should be. The orthodox fathers teach us to repeat the Jesus prayer uncreasingly and reject any thoughts or images that enter our minds (even a vision of Christ himself) as unsatisfactory. In this way, we create space within ourselves so that the Light from the Inner Christ may enter. Somehow I get the feeling that this is a little different from the "Christianity" in which you were raised.

Rather than lacking courage, you must be exceptionally courage to traverse this path, to enter through the narrow gate that leadeth to life. There is nothing courageous about clinging to ego. That is stupidity.




Well believers gonna believe.  Go for it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: Deviate]
    #19202368 - 11/28/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's a matter of typology, not judgement. You're either one of the Feeling types, or more usually balanced close to the Feeling-Thinking midline. I'm not denigrating Bhakti as an approach, it simply doesn't work for me typologically from an MBTI shame, or from a Gurdjieffian scheme, where I am a "King of Heats" and am primarily focused on the Intellectual part of the Emotional Center. So, I am an empathetic sort, but I immediately relate such feeling states through intellection and verbal/written communication. I was once asked by a female adolescent counsel, "Do you ever cry WITH your students?," and I had to say "No." I had to follow up with intellection, saying something to the effect that 'If someone is drowning, you don't want to jump into the water with them, but remain on solid ground and reach out to them.' I used to mess around with a girl, a disturbed girl who was known for her BJs in 3 NJ counties. She once asked me "You don't like strong emotions do you?" She was correct. I'd rather cultivate apatheia, ataraxia.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19202419 - 11/28/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Thanks for your interest Deviate, but you'll have to use the search function provided on this site (a nice app). I've been posting here since 1999, and I honestly can't remember posts specifically on atheists. Atheism is an odd term. I'm not a 'theist,' strictly speaking, but neither are Buddhists, yet Buddhists do recognize Nirvana as a transcendental condition that one enters into consciously. Atheists seem to be materialists who focus on the impossibility of an Eternal condition that one recognizes in mystical experience or at the point of death. Whereas mystical experience can impart a glimpse of such an Eternal condition, the atheist-materialist can only rely on reason and its relationship with sensory data, plus his belief in the purely reductionistic view that consciousness is 'produced by' the nervous system. Thus, with the degradation of the nervous system, consciousness ceases to exist. Of course even the non-ordinary forms of consciousness like out-of-the-body experiences usually do not occur to atheists, or else their faith in reason and the senses would be shaken to its roots. No, trapped in an essentially materialistic world-view, the materialist often embraces a 19th century version of scientific positivism. Despite the most profound discoveries of 21st century quantum physics which has learned that observation of quanta has an effect on its paradoxical wave-particle manifestations, and hence that consciousness is part of the gestalt of experimentation, atheists feel safe in 'the box' of their unimaginative little world views. They don't even see that yesteryear's science-fiction imagination (e.g., Jules Verne) could actually manifest in space-time at another point. Whether such appearances are precognitive or causal in some Rupert Sheldrakian 'morphic' sensibility,"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy," as The bard said in Act I, scene 5 of Hamlet.





I used the search function and found exactly what I was looking for. This is what you posted in a different thread:

Quote:

Atheists are trapped in the lowest 'sphere' of existence - the Kabbalistic Malkuth, to use a model that I appreciate. We have this sphere in common with the sensory data-rational minded atheist, but some people have access to other spheres of human beinghood. Atheists are comprised of the same spheres, but fight to remain in the earthly sphere. Transcendence of human consciousness and all that implies is denied. Sometimes it happens (it happened to me), that a scientific materialist has his world-view exploded by an Experience that is so life-changing, with so many possibilities that need interpreting, that he leaves the field of physical science to explore the heights and depths of consciousness. In my case, I left pre-medical studies for philosophy, then theology and then psychology. I was transformed in the course of my studies.

Whether they are Biblical scriptures or those belonging to other faiths, atheists fail to grasp them as records of human experience portrayed in the subtleties of myth, metaphor, midrash and metaphysics [prior to physics]. They are materialistic reductionists "by-and-large" (as my high school sociology teacher used to say) who can only find a reason-bound rationalization - which is a defense mechanism, not a logic that translates the intention of scripture-writers - to explain away ancient writings. They may insist that they are the writings of pre-scientific people (which they are of course) which is not self-explanatory, that they are a primitive form of cultural wish-fulfillment (all of a sudden using psychoanalytic ideas for their own agenda), beliefs constructed from scratch to allay fear of the unknown - death in particular (without being the least bit aware of universal, archetypal, transpersonal experiences that are at the bottom of such writings). Atheists might attribute the creation of an intelligently designed universe to their own 'unconscious god ' - sufficient time and mathematical probability (given enough time, chance reactions will result in the building blocks of biological life and mutation will eventuate in an Einstein, a Linda Brava, or our communication over these computers).

Now, the de-mythologization of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky type god NEEDS to be done, but the solution to the death-of-God in this context is done no good by atheism which is equally ridiculous to the belief in the Guy-in-the-Sky. The Intelligence behind MY creation is certainly not less than I am, and assuredly so far beyond my meager understanding as to utterly transcend any human's ability to comprehend it. Pity the poor atheist who believes in his own ability to understand and explain his 'god' as time and probability. How painfully absurd. Look at the fate of the false prophet of American Atheism Madelyn Murray-O'Hare: murdered, dismembered, burned and buried in her own property - by her own son. How Old Testament like, no?




I have struggled to articulate what you said so eloquently in the above post for quite some time.


Edited by Deviate (11/28/13 08:07 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: Deviate]
    #19202667 - 11/28/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey Markos I have been reading your old posts, I have a question for you regarding miracles. In a post from a couple of years ago you say:

"
Miracles are midrash, not historicity. The empty tomb narratives of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were later writings on the resurrection (another good example), which the earliest Christian writer, Paul, NEVER said was some physical resusitation of a dead body."

Now, I definitely agree with you that the Bible is midrash and many of the miracles described in the Bible are not literal occurrences but symbolic descriptions of spiritual transformations and events. However, you seem to take an attitude that is distinctly anti-miracle and I want to point out that this is not the understanding of the early church fathers, nor later saints and sages. For example, Ramana Maharshi affirmed that what we call miracles were possible and had occurred, he even said that in the cases of some sages their bodies disappeared while they still lived (this would explain the "assumption" of Mary, Enoch and Elijah into heaven).

So if miracles are merely symbolic, why is it that sages like Ramama Maharshi, even Buddha, stated that miracles were actual historical events? Surely they were speaking from their own experience and not some misunderstanding of ancient scriptures.


Edited by Deviate (11/28/13 09:28 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: Deviate]
    #19202832 - 11/28/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The short of it is, that these beings are talking to 'children.' In other words, they single out specific events, but my position is more far out than specific miracles. My position is that what are being pointed to as unique events are actually the way things work all the time. The disappearance of one's physical body, may be little more than "glitches in the [metaphysical] matrix." Such isolated events are supposed to happen on a grand scale with the 'rapture.' I think the writings as well as the oral traditions are supposed to give us cautious clues about how it all is, but the utter unreality of our world of form is so discontinuous with what our senses tell us that to lay a trip on disciples saying that it's all a massive illusion, attempting to strip away the 'unreality' of the world, would easily be countered by the most violent and cruel opponents, as the Romans did. 'Miracles' are more like secrets that would be expected to be believed by a choice few - those who would view them more as what is possible rather than what is true for all of us all the time. The thing about miracles is that they are not controlled by human egos. They are glimpses orchestrated by grace. Those who witness them are said to have been blessed in Christian terms, but again, there is constantly the mask of individual experiences, and individuality behind which is the One Reality.

By the same token, most Christians understand the 'I AM' statements of Jesus in John to refer to Jesus alone. But I think that the words are being uttered by the Logos, or Christ as the archetype of EVERY human being. My own highest and holiest moment showed me that beyond the ego, Mark, was pure Identity - a wordless, effulgence of "Unbearable Compassion" that was self-aware, and what I think is the meaning behind those 'I AM' sayings. So, what appears to be particular in this genre of stories, may be the most general, metaphysically speaking. It is ALL miracle. The Pleroma [Fullness] of Gnostic Heaven is Infinite Light, not Infinite space, punctuated by stars. Miracles are like specific stars, but if it's ALL miracle, it is beyond the normal human being to grok. It is ALL light. Mircea Eliade called these rends in normal space-time "The Sacred," and of it he says there is a "superabundance of Reality." Miracles are like looking at the stars from our comfortable back yard. The Reality behind the windows of miracle is like "set the controls for the heart of the Sun."


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/28/13 11:04 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19204092 - 11/29/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
'Miracles' are more like secrets that would be expected to be believed by a choice few - those who would view them more as what is possible rather than what is true for all of us all the time. The thing about miracles is that they are not controlled by human egos. They are glimpses orchestrated by grace.



"When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."

Unless used in a purely symbolic / metaphysical sense, "miracle" -- and what the term represents -- is perhaps the most disempowering concept ever devised and employed by humankind. 

As could be expected, the term originates in institutional religion -- an institution whose primary function is to disempower people by making them subservient to imaginary forces and deities.  Once you have disempowered a people and made them subservient, it's easy to get them to hand over cash and other goods to you.

"Miracle" should be understood in a poetic / symbolic / metaphysical sense only.  Just like "Santa Claus."

There is no literal "Santa Claus."  There are no literal "miracles."  There is no literal "resurrection of the dead."

All in my opinion, of course.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: all this beauty]
    #19204533 - 11/29/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, I see. Santa Claus is metaphysical.

Metaphysics has nothing to do with the politics, church politics included, of men. Metaphysics is That which exists ontologically prior to physics. Physics was a development out of a Mystery. It is the Mystery that is the object of religion.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19204735 - 11/29/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Any response to my post replying to your misconception of quantum mechanics?  (IMO)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19204758 - 11/29/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The short of it is, that these beings are talking to 'children.' In other words, they single out specific events, but my position is more far out than specific miracles. My position is that what are being pointed to as unique events are actually the way things work all the time. The disappearance of one's physical body, may be little more than "glitches in the [metaphysical] matrix." Such isolated events are supposed to happen on a grand scale with the 'rapture.' I think the writings as well as the oral traditions are supposed to give us cautious clues about how it all is, but the utter unreality of our world of form is so discontinuous with what our senses tell us that to lay a trip on disciples saying that it's all a massive illusion, attempting to strip away the 'unreality' of the world, would easily be countered by the most violent and cruel opponents, as the Romans did. 'Miracles' are more like secrets that would be expected to be believed by a choice few - those who would view them more as what is possible rather than what is true for all of us all the time. The thing about miracles is that they are not controlled by human egos. They are glimpses orchestrated by grace. Those who witness them are said to have been blessed in Christian terms, but again, there is constantly the mask of individual experiences, and individuality behind which is the One Reality.

By the same token, most Christians understand the 'I AM' statements of Jesus in John to refer to Jesus alone. But I think that the words are being uttered by the Logos, or Christ as the archetype of EVERY human being. My own highest and holiest moment showed me that beyond the ego, Mark, was pure Identity - a wordless, effulgence of "Unbearable Compassion" that was self-aware, and what I think is the meaning behind those 'I AM' sayings. So, what appears to be particular in this genre of stories, may be the most general, metaphysically speaking. It is ALL miracle. The Pleroma [Fullness] of Gnostic Heaven is Infinite Light, not Infinite space, punctuated by stars. Miracles are like specific stars, but if it's ALL miracle, it is beyond the normal human being to grok. It is ALL light. Mircea Eliade called these rends in normal space-time "The Sacred," and of it he says there is a "superabundance of Reality." Miracles are like looking at the stars from our comfortable back yard. The Reality behind the windows of miracle is like "set the controls for the heart of the Sun."




Thanks. This is sort of what I suspected. Ramana Maharshi explained it by saying that what we consider miracles are no more miraculous than what we witness every day, the only reason people think day to daty events are not miraculous is because they happen frequently.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19204876 - 11/29/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Oh, I see. Santa Claus is metaphysical.



Santa Claus is a symbolic and poetic representation of our respect for, and valuing of, childhood innocence. 

Children don't necessarily know this, but adults do.

Jesus Christ is a symbolic and poetic representation of our most basic metaphysical urges and insights.  His life, death, and resurrection constitute a near-perfect representation of mystical truth.

Children don't necessarily know this, but adults do.


Edited by all this beauty (11/29/13 03:39 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: deCypher]
    #19205623 - 11/29/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Any response to my post replying to your misconception of quantum mechanics?  (IMO)




Didn't see it. I should have elaborated. You are a apparently physical reductionist. I was thinking more than writing, and I was thinking about quantum entanglement and phenomena that suggest that simultaneity occurs in nature on the micro level of neurons, and on the macro level of insect beavers, e.g., bees. With simultaneity, things "like to happen together" as some Chinese philosophers have said. Until we can put people much much further apart in space-time, it will theoretically  be easier to quantify results of simultaneity. It violates normal causality based on the speed of light. Even when rare instances of simultaneity have been noted on two distant parts of the Earth, there seems to be an absence of even the tiny time-lag that physics agrees is constant. BTW, I do not subscribe to "New Age" anything, and your accusation is just an attempt at condescension from the presumably superior stance of physical science. Incidentally, I have training in science and subscribe to the scientific method when replicable experiments can be devised. Rare, paranormal or parapsychological phenomena such as telepathy experienced simultaneously by two subjects cannot be replicated, ostensibly because the subjective ego is not the organizing agent behind such phenomena. The Taoist Tao, or the Jung Self is a transcendental function that transcends the human being as well as space-time itself. This s a non-physical reality that nevertheless is 'woven' with the 'threads' of the 'fabric' of space-time.

One of the principles that I recognize is "Synchronicity: A Non-Causal Connecting Principle" that was outlined by C.G. Jung, and which drew conceptually on the Chinese system of the I Ching, the mathematics of which exceeds my grasp. It did not exceed the grasp of physicist Wolfgang Pauli, who worked with Jung to develop a theory which seems to be a different kind of Grand Unified Theory in that it took the Psyche as the other 'side' of space-time. Just as work is being done on Dark Energy and Dark Matter, work on the Psychic infrastructure of space-time would account for simultaneity and psychic anomalies. The Psyche is real, but its reality is of a different order than space-time. It seems to be timeless as well as unextended in space-time, hence it transcends space-time. This notion can also dovetail with David Bohm's Implicate-Explicate Order, wherein the 'enfolded' or Implicate Order (the Psyche) is a deeper and more fundamental reality than space-time (Explicate Order), which are not the dominant forces governing relationships in the universe. Consideration of this is not possible if one considers consciousness or self-consciousness to be an epiphenomenon of mechanical processes. So, I'll not take any more time here other to say that there seems to be "transcendental" influences that cannot be reduced to physics, and physics at the quantum level can and does manifest non-causal ordering with paired electrons at great distance from one another. Just as Freud attempted, unsuccessfully, to reduce the psyche to laws of thermodynamics, those physicists who cannot see their own models as merely 'provisional' will be surpassed by new paradigms when they can be amply demonstrated.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: deCypher]
    #19205802 - 11/29/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
No, trapped in an essentially materialistic world-view, the materialist often embraces a 19th century version of scientific positivism. Despite the most profound discoveries of 21st century quantum physics which has learned that observation of quanta has an effect on its paradoxical wave-particle manifestations, and hence that consciousness is part of the gestalt of experimentation, atheists feel safe in 'the box' of their unimaginative little world views.




Actually, no.  Observation collapses the wave function not because the observer is conscious, but rather because any act of observation necessarily involves interacting with the thing being observed.  A video camera observing a cat necessarily collapses the cat's wave function because for the observation to take place, photons have to bounce off the cat and return to the camera lens, and the bouncing of photons off the cat necessarily interferes with the cat.  No consciousness needed.  :shrug:

.




I believe the term collapsing wave function pertains specifically to fixing the wave as a particle for more calculable measurement.  Until a wave is collapsed to a particle it can't be specified, especially in more expansive energy states. The experiment is not damaged by observation. This is an analogy not a true physical component.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19206866 - 11/29/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Any response to my post replying to your misconception of quantum mechanics?  (IMO)




Didn't see it. I should have elaborated. You are a apparently physical reductionist. I was thinking more than writing, and I was thinking about quantum entanglement and phenomena that suggest that simultaneity occurs in nature on the micro level of neurons, and on the macro level of insect beavers, e.g., bees. With simultaneity, things "like to happen together" as some Chinese philosophers have said. Until we can put people much much further apart in space-time, it will theoretically  be easier to quantify results of simultaneity. It violates normal causality based on the speed of light. Even when rare instances of simultaneity have been noted on two distant parts of the Earth, there seems to be an absence of even the tiny time-lag that physics agrees is constant. BTW, I do not subscribe to "New Age" anything, and your accusation is just an attempt at condescension from the presumably superior stance of physical science. Incidentally, I have training in science and subscribe to the scientific method when replicable experiments can be devised. Rare, paranormal or parapsychological phenomena such as telepathy experienced simultaneously by two subjects cannot be replicated, ostensibly because the subjective ego is not the organizing agent behind such phenomena. The Taoist Tao, or the Jung Self is a transcendental function that transcends the human being as well as space-time itself. This s a non-physical reality that nevertheless is 'woven' with the 'threads' of the 'fabric' of space-time.

One of the principles that I recognize is "Synchronicity: A Non-Causal Connecting Principle" that was outlined by C.G. Jung, and which drew conceptually on the Chinese system of the I Ching, the mathematics of which exceeds my grasp. It did not exceed the grasp of physicist Wolfgang Pauli, who worked with Jung to develop a theory which seems to be a different kind of Grand Unified Theory in that it took the Psyche as the other 'side' of space-time. Just as work is being done on Dark Energy and Dark Matter, work on the Psychic infrastructure of space-time would account for simultaneity and psychic anomalies. The Psyche is real, but its reality is of a different order than space-time. It seems to be timeless as well as unextended in space-time, hence it transcends space-time. This notion can also dovetail with David Bohm's Implicate-Explicate Order, wherein the 'enfolded' or Implicate Order (the Psyche) is a deeper and more fundamental reality than space-time (Explicate Order), which are not the dominant forces governing relationships in the universe. Consideration of this is not possible if one considers consciousness or self-consciousness to be an epiphenomenon of mechanical processes. So, I'll not take any more time here other to say that there seems to be "transcendental" influences that cannot be reduced to physics, and physics at the quantum level can and does manifest non-causal ordering with paired electrons at great distance from one another. Just as Freud attempted, unsuccessfully, to reduce the psyche to laws of thermodynamics, those physicists who cannot see their own models as merely 'provisional' will be surpassed by new paradigms when they can be amply demonstrated.




Wow, you explain things so much better than I ever could. It's almost frustrating to have ideas in my head, which just sound like confused dribble if I attempt to put them into words and yet you are able to speak eloquently about them. It's too bad your ideas can't get out to a larger audience. I mean, do you realize how dumb and ignorant the average person is compared to you?


Edited by Deviate (11/29/13 11:09 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19208185 - 11/30/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Any response to my post replying to your misconception of quantum mechanics?  (IMO)




Didn't see it. I should have elaborated. You are a apparently physical reductionist. I was thinking more than writing, and I was thinking about quantum entanglement and phenomena that suggest that simultaneity occurs in nature on the micro level of neurons, and on the macro level of insect beavers, e.g., bees. With simultaneity, things "like to happen together" as some Chinese philosophers have said. Until we can put people much much further apart in space-time, it will theoretically  be easier to quantify results of simultaneity. It violates normal causality based on the speed of light. Even when rare instances of simultaneity have been noted on two distant parts of the Earth, there seems to be an absence of even the tiny time-lag that physics agrees is constant. BTW, I do not subscribe to "New Age" anything, and your accusation is just an attempt at condescension from the presumably superior stance of physical science. Incidentally, I have training in science and subscribe to the scientific method when replicable experiments can be devised. Rare, paranormal or parapsychological phenomena such as telepathy experienced simultaneously by two subjects cannot be replicated, ostensibly because the subjective ego is not the organizing agent behind such phenomena. The Taoist Tao, or the Jung Self is a transcendental function that transcends the human being as well as space-time itself. This s a non-physical reality that nevertheless is 'woven' with the 'threads' of the 'fabric' of space-time.

One of the principles that I recognize is "Synchronicity: A Non-Causal Connecting Principle" that was outlined by C.G. Jung, and which drew conceptually on the Chinese system of the I Ching, the mathematics of which exceeds my grasp. It did not exceed the grasp of physicist Wolfgang Pauli, who worked with Jung to develop a theory which seems to be a different kind of Grand Unified Theory in that it took the Psyche as the other 'side' of space-time. Just as work is being done on Dark Energy and Dark Matter, work on the Psychic infrastructure of space-time would account for simultaneity and psychic anomalies. The Psyche is real, but its reality is of a different order than space-time. It seems to be timeless as well as unextended in space-time, hence it transcends space-time. This notion can also dovetail with David Bohm's Implicate-Explicate Order, wherein the 'enfolded' or Implicate Order (the Psyche) is a deeper and more fundamental reality than space-time (Explicate Order), which are not the dominant forces governing relationships in the universe. Consideration of this is not possible if one considers consciousness or self-consciousness to be an epiphenomenon of mechanical processes. So, I'll not take any more time here other to say that there seems to be "transcendental" influences that cannot be reduced to physics, and physics at the quantum level can and does manifest non-causal ordering with paired electrons at great distance from one another. Just as Freud attempted, unsuccessfully, to reduce the psyche to laws of thermodynamics, those physicists who cannot see their own models as merely 'provisional' will be surpassed by new paradigms when they can be amply demonstrated.




I am far from a reductionist materialist; instead I'd probably lean most towards neutral monism.  At any rate I agree with you that such quantum phenomena as entanglement and simultaneity pointing towards a potential physical basis for psychic events like synchronicity--my sole dispute was with your contention that consciousness is a necessary component of observation for collapse of the wave-function to take place, which is a misunderstanding of the basic physics.  :shrug:

Quote:

eve69 said:
I believe the term collapsing wave function pertains specifically to fixing the wave as a particle for more calculable measurement.  Until a wave is collapsed to a particle it can't be specified, especially in more expansive energy states. The experiment is not damaged by observation. This is an analogy not a true physical component.




The experiment may not be 'damaged', but it is still affected and unavoidably changed by observation.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: Deviate]
    #19209420 - 11/30/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's not that I cannot graciously accept a compliment Deviate, but do you think you could embarrass me privately in the future with a PM? :lol: I have often felt frustrated when reading Ken Wilber's work, or Alan Watts, or C.G. Jung. So, while I appreciate that I am communicating with you (which is, after all why I write at all), it is after all, completely relative. The percentage of Americans holding a PhD degree is .96%, but again, I didn't earn one at an Ivy League school. Neither do I have the entrepreneurial personality to have done in life what I might have. I wrote a book, but it still sits in this computer and has yet to be formatted for Amazon.com. You'd probably enjoy it too, if I can get it together to publish it. So "dumb" is relative too, and I feel kind of stunned with my inability to extend my reading audience. I don't expect to make much money with this book, and fame is ridiculous. Sharing experiences and having them appreciated by others with similar experiences is probably my main motive. Maybe I'll be discovered after my death as some unsung philosophical hero in a late 20th century website dedicated to entheogens.  :mushroom2: :grin: :mushroom2:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Posts: 14,279
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Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: deCypher]
    #19209433 - 11/30/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well, alrighty then.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Resurrection of the dead [Re: desant]
    #19210107 - 11/30/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

desant said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead

Quote:

Resurrection of the Dead is a common component of a number of eschatologies, most commonly in Christian, Islamic, Jewish and Zoroastrian eschatology. The phrase refers to a specific event in the future — multiple prophecies in the histories of these religions assert that the dead will be brought back to life at some point in the future.




How, how can something like this be possible?

Well :strokebeard:, i can let you in on a secret: Tovarich Stalin in his time constructed a multidimensional centrifuge. What it does, a persons soul shows up and gets sucked/jumps into the centrifuge, it gives you a subtle energy body, and then you birth a real 3d human body from it.

This piece of technology is reserved for the coming Age of Light.

Mind you not all souls in heaven will get a chance to birth again into the world, only who made a name of themselves, like Beethoven and Vang Goch and others :eek::stoned:






when we die?


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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