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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I don't see "plenty" of difference. If course we all love to imagine ourselves unique.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
#19163752 - 11/20/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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just different perspectives imo (the whole ant colony & the ant's eye view)
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (11/20/13 06:49 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: quinn]
#19163859 - 11/20/13 07:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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perspective is different and much else.
if you have one eye, depth is imaginary, but by adding another eye only 2.2 inches away you will have added a depth perception that is incredibly significant.
what is understood from that scene will be different in another position - remember only inches apart is significant.
two people with significant differences in understanding are already significantly different
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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two people with significant differences in understanding are already significantly different
Not imo. people rarely act different no matter what they "understand"
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
#19164174 - 11/20/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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do you mean to say that "two people do not act differently from each other regardless of their understanding?"
because if that is what you are proposing, I don't know how you can account for the number of differences of opinions - and millions of comments that have been posted here at the shroomery.
is there something else you are trying to claim, like "all people are equally frightened because they are going to die."? which has been a recurring theme and a good reason to keep acting like eeyore.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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do you mean to say that "two people do not act differently from each other regardless of their understanding?"
Not completely but much more alike than not at the core and evened out over their life.
Possibly in a similar way it's likely that no two bees act exactly the same.
When you take a step back you will see, imo, humans acting very much alike.
Even artists. 
Here's a tiny example. Lets say I say something here that pisses you off (presses your buttons). Now you make keep your cool in response to me instead of outright flaming or personalisms but you are still pissed off as the one flaming is pissed off. Those buttons both got pushed and elicited a response.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/20/13 10:17 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
#19164337 - 11/20/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Not completely but much more alike than not at the core and evened out over their life.
Possibly in a similar way it's likely that no two bees act exactly the same.
When you take a step back you will see, imo, humans acting very much alike.
does your opinion have any measurements that go with it? i.e. you use "much more alike" without indicating more than what specifically... and you use "very much alike" and I really can't tell what would be "not so much alike" in the terms you are setting forth.
then you mention the honeybees as if to say what? that we act like we are all out collecting nectar and pollen to raise the queens brood? that we are likely to attempt stinging if we get any flack? that we have hairy bodies with black and yellow stripes?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Veritas called it having wiggle room.
and as such "I am a worm"
"I am worman"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Not completely but much more alike than not at the core and evened out over their life.
Possibly in a similar way it's likely that no two bees act exactly the same.
When you take a step back you will see, imo, humans acting very much alike.
does your opinion have any measurements that go with it? i.e. you use "much more alike" without indicating more than what specifically... and you use "very much alike" and I really can't tell what would be "not so much alike" in the terms you are setting forth.
then you mention the honeybees as if to say what? that we act like we are all out collecting nectar and pollen to raise the queens brood? that we are likely to attempt stinging if we get any flack? that we have hairy bodies with black and yellow stripes?
Yes, the measurements are 6ft 3in. And yes we all have hairy bodies.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Libertin
Absurdist


Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 959
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
#19165922 - 11/20/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see no reason to believe that we have any autonomy whatsoever. It seems completely unintuitive that we could make an independent decision, free from the influences of the universe. Sure, it feels like we have free will but that's not convincing to me. Absolute determinism makes sense to me.
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Libertin]
#19166145 - 11/20/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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haha nice analogy icey
I agree DNA does as DNA does. Reminds me of a Robert Anton Wilson exercise in which you find 15 similarities between bees and humans. I also feel however, that the closer you get to the individual the greater the diversity and potential realization of autonomous behaviour made possible by consciousness developing a sense of self-reflection, metacognitive processes that enable thinking about thoughts (I suppose this could be seen as autonomous behavior as well) potentially allowing for one to perceive conditioned thought patterns all the way to the unconscious. The change in perception would mean one could possibly decondition, or learn, new behavior on the basis of freedom.
Since this type of self-reflective consciousness is I believe only expressed in the human population and perhaps dolphins and whales or higher-order primates, one would expect that there would be a greater individual expression of free will but automatous behavior which exists as the root of consciousness would still be present.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Kafei
Stranger

Registered: 11/18/13
Posts: 20
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: hTx]
#19168666 - 11/21/13 05:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm surprised the website I'm about to link to below doesn't come up often in a discussion like this. Michael Hoffman has a theory based on the use of psychedelics that's related to these sort of fatalistic concepts.
Ego Death website
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 1 month, 18 days
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: The older I get and the more I learn from watching myself and others, the more I doubt humans are as autonomous in the manners we lead ourselves to believe.
This is not to say that we are all just mindless drones, incapable of self-control or influencing ourselves and others, but that self-control and autonomy may not be necessarily related in the way we may think...
Most people when I ask them why they do the things they do can rationalize it but cannot tell me why it is they rationally choose to think and behave in those manners, what it is that is driving them to do that...
What are your thoughts on this? Can you provide an argument against or for autonomy? Do you know why you are driven to do every little thing you do and think the way you do?
I never quite did what I was supposed to and now I am far from living any sort of life I envisioned. It's actually far better. I'm only autonomous when I masturbate. Otherwise I might have to exercise choice then I'm not on autopilot anymore.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: eve69]
#19168746 - 11/21/13 06:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If the urge to sex never comes up there is no choice. Chemicals ftw.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hmmn


Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 372
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
#19168811 - 11/21/13 07:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'll just leave my unsupported view here...if anybody likes it enough to disagree and comment I'll gladly say more.
We ourselves are utterly and irreversibly bound to everything that ever has and ever will exist. We aren't even a single thing; we're a collection of collections of collections (infinite loop) of behaviors, playing out in a purely continuous way alongside every other unthingable thing.
Consciousness is autonomous. I came to that conclusion after examining my own interconnected non-existence (see above) for a long time.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: hmmn]
#19168829 - 11/21/13 07:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't even know what that means.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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presentusthefuture
Stranger

Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 127
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
#19203945 - 11/29/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Interesting thread. Intellectual masturbation, but interesting none-the-less. I've been thinking about some things similar to this lately. Has anybody ever tried to sort of 'reprogram' themselves while tripping? I remember reading somewhere (I wish I had the link) that you can potentially change your habits (not sure about long term, but you could maybe trip again at a later time and put in a thicker imprint) and feelings toward something while under psychedelics and if you have the right psychological willpower and belief, it potentially stays that way. I've really been interested in the power of belief for the past few years. It's such an incredibly influential force in human reality.
But, to the OP, I think the bigger question to any of this is - why? Why do we want to be autonomous? To be free of society? To be 'in control of our lives'? What does that mean? My mother likes dark chocolate, but I've grown to dislike it. Does that mean I'm being autonomous? I want to be as intelligent as Albert Einstein, it's my decision to study science so I can be smart like him, does that mean I'm self-directed? I want to be witty like Oscar Wilde, guess I better become a homosexual, hey, it's my personal decision. I want to go learn how to make my own cheese and start a farm so I don't have to be like all the sheep who will starve to death once food prices skyrocket - I'm only being self-reliant like the pioneers did. Plus I read Thoreau. I wanna go fuck hella women. I just want to swim in tits. And I don't want to wear a condom while doing it. I want to become one giant jizz siringe. Maybe I can direct my sperm to bypass her uterus and instead enter her breasts so that they have a glossy finish. Should I then become a rock musician? Statistically I've got a long journey ahead of me, but what if I just chose to only regard the statistics of my getting an STD and not becoming a rock star? That should certainly give me a better chance? Do they even take statistics of questions like that? Would they? A boy was raised by wolves in France and came to be a remarkable case in psychology - was he autonomous of society? Did the researchers think so? Did he think the researchers thought he was? Did he care? Did they think he cared? Did he know what that meant? Did they know what that meant? Do you?
The whole point of this is that if you want to be autonomous, then be autonomous. There's no statistics needed. No genetic theories. They're just over-complications. Autonomy is a symbol constructed with language. We gave it meaning. So if you're wanting to be a representation of what that symbol means, then just BE it. Asking if we're autonomous is like asking a 2 month old if he can start acting like a 2 month old and then asking him how old he is.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Libertin]
#19203996 - 11/29/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Seems you can mostly only become yourself with meditation or psychedelics
The real self doesnt change muchQuote:
Libertin said: I see no reason to believe that we have any autonomy whatsoever. It seems completely unintuitive that we could make an independent decision, free from the influences of the universe. Sure, it feels like we have free will but that's not convincing to me. Absolute determinism makes sense to me.
Im a fan of determinism too, especially since I notice my subconscious daily Who I am hasnt changed, or what I value during my life
Can only live with myself most of the time not against myself
My main programming (values in life) hasnt changed since birth
Only when I wasnt myself did my values change (lived as thoughts)
I meditate/sit in nature to be myself and notice nothing has changed, same inside as always
My choices I have already made long ago or they were made for me
Edited by lessismore (11/29/13 08:46 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: hmmn]
#19204544 - 11/29/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hmmn said: I'll just leave my unsupported view here...if anybody likes it enough to disagree and comment I'll gladly say more.
We ourselves are utterly and irreversibly bound to everything that ever has and ever will exist. We aren't even a single thing; we're a collection of collections of collections (infinite loop) of behaviors, playing out in a purely continuous way alongside every other unthingable thing.
Consciousness is autonomous. I came to that conclusion after examining my own interconnected non-existence (see above) for a long time.
I like it mostly but don't jive much with the non-existence term
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: lessismore]
#19204551 - 11/29/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: Seems you can mostly only become yourself with meditation or psychedelics
The real self doesnt change muchQuote:
Libertin said: ... I meditate/sit in nature to be myself and notice nothing has changed, same inside as always
My choices I have already made long ago or they were made for me
when I get still, I note that it is all new and seething freshly the quieter I get the more is happening.
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