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Barnabey
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Tempeh Experience 3
#19203917 - 11/29/13 08:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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So I like tempeh enough to compromise my shiitake and oyster agar cultures to try something like this :
I purchased tempeh in an organic store, ingredients say "organic" rhizopus culture (i don't know which one so I emailed them to ask) and soy beans and water.
My plan is to take a small piece of it like I would do to do any tissue transfer and put it on potatoe dextrose agar. For there, I would do another transfer (if needed ?) into another dish and then let it make spores in the petri dish.
Then by doing a spore print (like someone suggested in another post to put the petri dish upside down to get the spores, then mix the spores with rice flour (does it has to be sterelized ? how ? :O ) and hopefully get my own tempeh starter.
Does this make sense to anyone ? Should I just try to inoculate some rice or soy jars with the agar wedges and then use the soy/rice to inoculate more soy rice ?
(any advice that does not involve buying a started kit and using the one I purchased is welcome !)
Last one : Is there any sort of selection of strain to make when transfering rhizopus on agar? could that technique make a less healthy culture or isn't it just a perfect clone of the tempeh culture I purchased ?
Many thanks !
-------------------- My cute contaminants
Edited by Barnabey (11/29/13 08:18 AM)
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drake89
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19204088 - 11/29/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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get a copy of 'the art of fermentation' by sandor katz.
he says to get spores, they're like $2.50 per packet online. then you inoculate rice and let it colonize, fruit, and desiccate. I'd use a filter disc. Then put an oster blender base on the jar, you used a small mouth, right? Blend it up and you should have enough tempeh starter for a longggg time!
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Barnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: drake89]
#19204402 - 11/29/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for the input, i'm going to try to find that sandor kats document / book !
How would you desiccate ? I have no experience in that, is this a powder a machine ?
-------------------- My cute contaminants
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19205086 - 11/29/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I make my own tempeh and culture, and its really easy. No tissue culturing or anything like that.
Basically you cannot start from store bought tempeh, you have to buy some spores initially. But once you have your first batch of tempeh, after its completely white (24 hours at 85 degrees fahrenheit) remove the lid (I use tin foil with holes poked in it). After its exposed to air it'll sporulate, you can tell because it turns gray or black. Once it reaches this stage you need to slice it up thin, dehydrate and then put through a coffee grinder or food processor until its a powder. Simply cut it to 25% with rice flour and you have enough starter to last you through 50-100 pounds of soybeans.
The hardest part about making tempeh is cracking the soybeans, they cannot be whole, the fungus cannot penetrate the hull. I use a grain mill on a loose setting to crack my beans.
Tempeh you make yourself is also way tastier than in the store. I buy my organic soybeans from azure standard for cheap so it ends up costing me than 50 cents per pound to make tempeh. (the dry beans are about 1.30 a pound, but hydrated they're heavier)
It's worth it if you're a vegan or vegetarian, because making tempeh turns soybeans from a difficult to digest source of protein into a ready-to-digest complete protein that also supplies a good amount of calcium, magnesium and some vitamin B-12.
I've been making it for about 6 months now and use it in a lot of dishes, I always have some going. If you want a few teaspoons of culture (enough for 4 cups of dried beans), let me know and I'll send some to you.
Also, there's no need to worry about sterile cultures or anything like that, the fungus is so prolific that I've never lost a batch, ever. Out of 50 pounds of dried beans, it has never failed.
I just noticed you are in the netherlands, so there's no azure standard for you, but I'm sure you can find a source of cheap organic soybeans. Be sure to ask the place you order starter from if their tempeh sporulates. Some places sell tempeh starter that is a different sporeless species.
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Edited by liamtheloser (11/29/13 02:38 PM)
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forrest



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and liam, did you ever have trouble with cross-contamination with your mushroom cultures?
this thread has made me quite interested in making tempeh, but that's a point i would worry about.
barnabey, i'm from the netherlands too, if you find a place to buy a culture a culture, could you post it?
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19206970 - 11/29/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, never had cross contam and I incubate my tempeh in my spawn incubator.
I don't think tempeh would grow well on sawdust but I suppose it might.
I mix my tempeh spores in the kitchen, but do my mushroom stuff in the bathroom.
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Corporal Kielbasa


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Can it be grown on any other type of beans?
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liamtheloser
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Yep, any dehulled bean. Soybean is the best tasting I've tried though. I also liked black bean and quinoa.
However, you need to cook the beans or grains only about halfway, the tempeh will "cook" it the rest of the way. So with soybeans, you soak overnight and only cook for 30 minutes to an hour instead of 2-3 before drying, cooling and inoculating. So for black beans, or other softer beans, that means soaking and then cooking for only 20 minutes or so.
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Corporal Kielbasa


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Thanks for that info
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Barnabey
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Thank you very much for all of the informations !
Now I am still confused about something "Basically you cannot start from store bought tempeh, you have to buy some spores initially."
=> Why why why ? Why is it that with fungus, tempeh or anything, we can only rely on commercial sources, are humans so good that they really cracked nature so well that such cultures can only be accomplishes by buying something ? Same thing for commercial mushrooms that apparently won't grow well from tissue culture even tho the commercial mushrooms should be a very nicely selected strain, but would be at the same time on the end of its performance just when we purchase it ?
(I'm only asking, I have yet to try and see by myself how miserable will my tempeh and shiitake and oyster be from commercially bought end products...)
The reason I ask WHY WHY WHY is because after inoculating tempeh on agar last night I read that most commercially sold tempeh are pasteurized and that it won't work and today when I woke up the tempeh was happily colonizing my plates. Now will this make spores ? And how in the tiny hell did humans succeed to control molds so it would not sporulate ?
And my market bought shiitake and oyster cloned from tissue are both showing very good looking growth to me so far !
-------------------- My cute contaminants
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19208290 - 11/30/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The commercial packages I've seen use a different type of fungus, not the traditional sporulating one. And there's a reason for that. Once they're in the store, if they turn black they look pretty gross.
Also, if you continue with the culture, you will have to be more concerned about sterility, etc. Commercial companies don't care that they have to be sterile, because it helps with food safety, etc. Might be more of a pain in the ass for you though. Also, you have senescence to worry about when culturing. The reason spores work so great is that there's so many spores that it instantly out competes every other possible contaminant. Not sure how you'd do that with a culture.
If I were you, I'd seriously invest in a little 2 dollar packet of spores, they will last you a lifetime, which is a very small investment. But if you're just doing this as an experiment, you are free to do whatever you want.
Also, commercial tempeh in Europe might be different than here, but here every block of tempeh I've found in the store was made with rhizopus oryzae (the one that doesn't sporulate on beans), instead of the traditional rhizpous oligosporus.
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Edited by liamtheloser (11/30/13 12:50 PM)
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Barnabey
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Interesting !
So now the first link I found about R. Oryzae was THIS and from the picture and description it seemed to be making MANY spores !
I'll try to finish my experience and get spores and see where I fail ! Then I will eventually get a kit ! But I'm still SO CONFUSED about senescence in general, I'm reading about it since 2 days and the more I read about it, the more confused I am !
(the way commercial mushrooms are selected to give maximum yield and be the best species, and at the same time be at the limit of senescence so if anyone try to clone that superbe expensive strain it will turn senescence after 2 agar transfers and give a horrible yeld suddently :O I would really love to read a long nice clear article about this, how many transfers does it take for this to take place, why how when with who why
-------------------- My cute contaminants
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Barnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19212750 - 12/01/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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An extra question :
Let's imagine for a second that my rizopus growing on agar is healthy and amazing and beautiful, how would I get it to make spores ? Do I just let it grow in the petri dish and it will do it on its own ? Do I need to give it more air ? I'm having a hard time finding details informations about it !
-------------------- My cute contaminants
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19213601 - 12/01/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So the reason that commercial farms have fruit bodies to close to senescence is that they expand to maximize their yields while still having a good quality fruit. So they will take an agar wedge, transfer to grain, then split that grain into say 20 more grain jars, then from those 20 grain jars, split it into sawdust spawn, or whatever spawn they'll use, then inoculate a large bulk substrate with that. At that point it has probably been split so much that it's close to senescence. They want to get as much out of one generation of spawn as they can, so they take it to the limit. You understand now?
And for your second question, maybe you have to get it to sporulate by introducing it to some environmental changes, or growing it on the right medium. I have no doubt it sporulates eventually, but not as quick as r. oligosporus, otherwise they would have no need to use r. oryzae. I should have taken a picture of my latest tempeh block before I ate it. If you saw it in a store, you would not purchase it 
You can try the same thing that causes oligosporus to sporulate, which is expose to dry air (remove the cover). I always sporulate my tempeh because that exposure to air also removes the condensation that can cause tempeh to get a little slimey. I only introduce dry air for 6 hours or so, and only after the beans are fully colonized.
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Forrester
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Man this is an awesome thread. I can't believe I've been vegetarian for 5 years and haven't gotten into tempeh. Only tried it a couple times at restaurants, but this thread is really making me want to give DIY tempeh a go...

-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
#19214231 - 12/01/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's great stuff. I stopped eating processed foods and store bought meat about 3 months ago. Only meat I ever eat is if I'm lucky enough to catch a salmon or steelhead, or if I go out squidding and catch some squid or shrimp. Which isn't very often, hah. But I was eating tempeh before I stopped eating meat, just not as often. It's great stuff, I cook it usually stir fried, or broiled, or in soups, it's pretty versatile and after you get in a groove with preparing it, it's super easy. I just soak beans on Saturday night, boil and dry them on Sunday morning and put them in the incubator. Then i have tempeh for Monday morning and all week (I make a weeks worth, it stays fine in the fridge for a week).
I say give it a try, it's not expensive for soybeans, and the culture powder is cheap too.
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Forrester
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Quote:
liamtheloser said: I just soak beans on Saturday night, boil and dry them on Sunday morning and put them in the incubator. Then i have tempeh for Monday morning and all week (I make a weeks worth, it stays fine in the fridge for a week).
I say give it a try, it's not expensive for soybeans, and the culture powder is cheap too.
Hell yeah that sounds like my kind of routine. I already do kombucha every other weekend, and prep most of my food for the week on Sunday, so that'd fit right in.
So wait though... it only takes overnight?!
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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drake89
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
#19214777 - 12/01/13 09:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
liamtheloser said: I just soak beans on Saturday night, boil and dry them on Sunday morning and put them in the incubator. Then i have tempeh for Monday morning and all week (I make a weeks worth, it stays fine in the fridge for a week).
I say give it a try, it's not expensive for soybeans, and the culture powder is cheap too.
Hell yeah that sounds like my kind of routine. I already do kombucha every other weekend, and prep most of my food for the week on Sunday, so that'd fit right in.
So wait though... it only takes overnight?!
yeah. i made like 15lbs last year cause I harvested some edamame from my dad's garden. it kept in the freezer quite well. and its easy to just throw it in a skillet for 15 minutes and then you got protein! stuff i made was way fluffier than the store bought which was nice. I still got a couple gallons of beans left that I gotta try...theyre a year and a half old lol
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: drake89]
#19214833 - 12/01/13 09:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, I use an incubator, and they take less than 24 hours from split beans to full on tempeh. It's great! Especially in this hobby where everything takes weeks or months to colonize!
Once you put it in the fridge it stops growing (since it's a tropical fungus)
I've never frozen mine, but that would be good! Never thought to, I always eat mine all up, lol.
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Culland
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19240753 - 12/07/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anyone know a good spot to buy the starter spores? I found one place but for the 4.99 package of spores they wanted me to pay $77 shipping to Canada. Seems like the kind of thing that would be covered by a stamp
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pseudotsuga


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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19244785 - 12/08/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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upaya naturals is apparently based in canada and sells tempeh starter cultures.
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Aleon
The Power of Our Origins



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Just made my first batch of tempeh. All I had was black beans, so I tried black bean tempeh. I know there's a lot of room for improvement but I was happy with the results of my first batch.
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19270506 - 12/13/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Says photos are in a restricted area of your server
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liamtheloser
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Oh, I was able to click through to another page that showed it.
Nice work! You can use any glass or plastic container. I don't use ziploc because they only last one batch. I use shallow glass food savers.
Yeah I liked black bean tempeh, not as much as soy, but it's good!
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Ganzig
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19270525 - 12/13/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Aleon said: Just made my first batch of tempeh. All I had was black beans, so I tried black bean tempeh. I know there's a lot of room for improvement but I was happy with the results of my first batch.

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I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this. I must keep reminding myself of this.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Ganzig]
#19270554 - 12/13/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oo, also if you like the black beam tempeh, try adding some Quinoa to it next time too. That combo is pretty dang tasty. Quinoa being pretty much the only grain I can stomach, it might b good with a different grain too
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Aleon
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OK quinoa sounds good! Yeah right now I really like the bags because they are just so easy to use. Also if u use a tray most people still use foil on top which cannot be reused either(both bags and foil are recyclable though). But its just nice to have it grow and be stored in the same container. I'm going to bring them to the farmers market, so I want to have it be grown in what it will be sold in, so there is no handling of the product.
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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Forrester
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19273892 - 12/14/13 09:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anyone have a way to crack the beans if you don't have a mill?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
#19274518 - 12/14/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Before I bought a mill I put them in a blender dry.
Also, they don't have to be cracked, you can remove the hull by hand (it's the hull that protects the bean from fungus). Basically just soak over night then squeeze the beans in your hands. That's more labor intensive though!
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Edited by liamtheloser (12/14/13 12:13 PM)
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Kyuule

Registered: 08/22/11
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19278853 - 12/15/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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@aleon you are a genious, FARMERS MARKET!!! I'm buy some spores right now, this looks delicious!!
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Forrester
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Quote:
liamtheloser said: Also, they don't have to be cracked, you can remove the hull by hand (it's the hull that protects the bean from fungus). Basically just soak over night then squeeze the beans in your hands. That's more labor intensive though!
Great idea, sounds like it would be feasible for small batches to start out, and I could get a mill if I got real into it. I already want a mill for brewing anyway so maybe that could be my excuse
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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drake89
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
#19278967 - 12/15/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
liamtheloser said: Also, they don't have to be cracked, you can remove the hull by hand (it's the hull that protects the bean from fungus). Basically just soak over night then squeeze the beans in your hands. That's more labor intensive though!
Great idea, sounds like it would be feasible for small batches to start out, and I could get a mill if I got real into it. I already want a mill for brewing anyway so maybe that could be my excuse 
now we're talkin!
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: drake89]
#19279028 - 12/15/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I got a cheap hand crank "grain mill" on ebay for seriously 25ish shipped. Works awesome for cracking beans and grains (but not for making flour). I make tofu as well, so it wasn't a huge investment, I've been finding random stuff to grind up since I got it, haha.
Here ya go, a link: CLICK HERE
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Edited by liamtheloser (12/15/13 12:21 PM)
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Forrester
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Sweet, thanks for the link. That's pretty cheap... I wonder if it would work for chaga? Coffee grinder gets it TOO powdery, I need a slightly coarser grind. Hmmmm... That could be a nice multi-purpose tool to have!
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Culland
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
#19392661 - 01/09/14 08:37 AM (10 years, 22 days ago) |
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Thanks to liamtheloser I mixed up my first batch of tempeh last night. It seemed to go pretty good, ate some this morning and was pretty good fried up with onions and garlic.
A couple questions for those more experienced.
My tempeh took longer to get solid white on the top than the 22-24 hours recommended, I figure about 28 hours, but I unplugged the incubator and went to bed at the 27 hour mark so not positive. My thought was that maybe I didn't add enough starter for the amount of beans I used. Does that sound reasonable?
The bottom of my tempeh, specially in the center, is a bit crumbly. I am not sure how firm tempeh is supposed to be, but I was expecting a firmer, more solid block. Is it normally a bit crumbly? I am wondering if I just didnt get my beans dry enough and a bit of water settled at the bottom and thus the tempeh didn't bind it strong enough there. There was no buildup of condensation on the lids until the very end of incubation, and I thought I had the moisture at the same level as grain spawn would be, even did a few paper towel tests to check for wetness. Thoughts?
For reference I had to use roasted, unsalted soy as that was all I could find locally.
Thanks for sharing your collective wisdom.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19393207 - 01/09/14 11:18 AM (10 years, 21 days ago) |
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Mine will get crumbly if it gets too compact in one spot or if there's a wet spot. Or if I pull it out too early. It's best to wait til the entire thing is solid white, if it doesn't get there after 24-36 hours, maybe you making them a bit drier. After I boil my beans I dump them in a colander and use a hair dryer to dry them out til they're just a bit sticky but definitely not wet. It may take a couple batches to iron out what works for you, good luck and glad I could help!
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Group
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Nice.
-------------------- We are starting a mushroom growing network to provide FREE and/or inexpensive gourmet and medicinal mushrooms to local communities accross the US and globally. We have the opportunity to feed and heal each other. We simply need to work together. By sharing our talents we enable ourselves and others to enjoy a world of abundance. We'd love for collaboration from YOU, PM me!
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fizzbin
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Group]
#19406285 - 01/11/14 11:22 PM (10 years, 19 days ago) |
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Did you need to crack the black beans? It looks so good.
I use to hand dehull soy beans but that's too time consuming for me now. Good way to relax, though.
-------------------- [quote]It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.[/quote] [cite]-- Carl Sagan[/cite]
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19406772 - 01/12/14 03:27 AM (10 years, 19 days ago) |
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I crack all of my beans, I invested in a grain mill early on, and it takes literally 45 seconds to crack 4 cups of beans. But as far as needing to... I wouldn't think so, since the only reason you have to crack soy beans is because the hull of soybeans is thick and has some natural fungicide in it. I don't believe other beans have this issue.
One problem with the hulls though, regardless of type of bean, is that it tends to increase the amount of moisture in the mix. But as long as you dry them thoroughly (i suggest using a hair dryer), it wont be a problem.
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Aleon
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Quote:
liamtheloser said: I crack all of my beans, I invested in a grain mill early on, and it takes literally 45 seconds to crack 4 cups of beans. But as far as needing to... I wouldn't think so, since the only reason you have to crack soy beans is because the hull of soybeans is thick and has some natural fungicide in it. I don't believe other beans have this issue.
One problem with the hulls though, regardless of type of bean, is that it tends to increase the amount of moisture in the mix. But as long as you dry them thoroughly (i suggest using a hair dryer), it wont be a problem.
The hair dryer is a good tip; im going to try it today. What kind of grain mill do you have? I want to get one that can crack not only soy, but larger beans like black and garbanzo. I have the cheapo $25 grain mill from ebay and it sucks! It grinds the beans into inconsistent sizes.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19408039 - 01/12/14 11:59 AM (10 years, 18 days ago) |
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I have the eBay cast iron crank mill, you just really have to micro adjust the plate opening until you get a good cracking. With soy beans it's almost all the way tight, and I usually run them through a second time just to make sure I got them all cracked. Black beans are just a tiny bit bigger then soy, so I barely open it up, maybe a half turn.
Although on eBay they call it a grain mill, I wouldn't try to grind grain in it, I don't think you'd get anything close to flour, but it does make decent corn meal. Also I saw someone grinding roasted cacao with it so I'll try that too.
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Aleon
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Did the hair drier trick today; and it worked like a charm With milling, I did the same thing you said except when the mill splits the beans it breaks them into all different size pieces, and lots of smaller pieces. Also, what speed are your cranking for the mill? I will give this mill another try or two, but it is annoying.
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Forrester
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19409900 - 01/12/14 07:58 PM (10 years, 18 days ago) |
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And what about something like lentils? They wouldn't need crackin' eh? Any good?
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
#19410740 - 01/13/14 12:09 AM (10 years, 18 days ago) |
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Well the problem with cracking oblong beans is that they hit the mill head facing all sorts of directions. This will cause some to be cracked and some to be shattered. Luckily tempeh doesn't really care too much as long as the hull has been penetrated.
Soy beans are perfectly round and uniform in size, so they crack really well.
And yeah, you can use lentils or whatever you like, just remember that tempeh will change the taste of your favorite bean. Also, lentils would be tricky to get the water content right, they tend to fall apart when they get hydrated.
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Aleon
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Thanks for tips
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19422183 - 01/15/14 10:26 AM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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today i got my tempehstarted in thru the mail.  since i don;t have a grainmill, i'm going to start with combinations of lentils and grains/quinoa, to make patties/burgers. i'm really excited, lots of people around here tell me they would want some organic, fresh tempeh.
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Edited by forrest (01/15/14 10:27 AM)
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19422307 - 01/15/14 11:01 AM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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Awesome! Let us know how it turns out!
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Barnabey
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So while you're all cracking beans in your living room, I got commercially purchased tempeh on agar and it filled the hole plate in no time and you can see the sporangium (if that's the correct term to call those black little dots)
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19423017 - 01/15/14 02:00 PM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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Nice! Now it's your turn to get cracking!
Also I have to mention it even though I'm probably wrong, but that doesn't look like the tempeh fungus nor its sporulation. It's probably just because it's on agar
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Edited by liamtheloser (01/15/14 02:02 PM)
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Barnabey
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Yes it looks very different than on tempeh but i did different petri dishes and they all colonized super fast like the whole plate to the top in less than 48 hours. and I only got that with my tempeh experiences :p Anyway, since I don't have a dehydrator, I did something silly that I read nowhere :
I took one of the petri dish just like the one on the picture and i put it in the blender with the agar (so not dry) with rice flour I made from rice (da). I made a mixture out of this, cooked some skinned organic soy beans mixed with plenty of my fresh starter and put this in a plastic bag with holes in an incubator at 30 degrees. I will let you know tomorrow night how bad this went ! I'm just trying to see if tempeh starter HAS to be dehydrated and dry :p
Feel free to predict what's going to happen !
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19423182 - 01/15/14 02:37 PM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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I predict we will see tomorrow! I don't think starter has to be dry, because if you buy commercial starter it's a liquid.
I think the spore powder is more convenient for hobby or home growers since you don't have to maintain a sterile culture. But it's great you're doing it!
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19424003 - 01/15/14 05:38 PM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Barnabey said:

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19426897 - 01/16/14 09:19 AM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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so it semi failed, it defenitely fermented and had a special smell, I could see growth of white mold but the thing wouldn't stick together, I think the mix was too compressed and had too much "starter" and maybe not enough air :/ Anyway, I'm going to try again
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19427022 - 01/16/14 09:40 AM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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If it had a special smell the bacteria got it.
Need to make your beans drier.
Also try fermenting in a glass dish covered with foil (and put some holes in the foil). It's actually more difficult to grow it in ziploc bags.
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Aleon
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19432012 - 01/17/14 06:16 AM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Barnabey said: so it semi failed, it defenitely fermented and had a special smell, I could see growth of white mold but the thing wouldn't stick together, I think the mix was too compressed and had too much "starter" and maybe not enough air :/ Anyway, I'm going to try again 
Lentils is probably the worst bean to start with for making tempeh. Many people if not all people say that it cant be done/isnt worth it. Try black bean, garbanzo, black eye pea, kidney bean, etc.
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19432043 - 01/17/14 06:43 AM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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green lentils don't break while cooking like red/yellow do.
but i'm just searching for something besides grains i could use to let colonise, for wich i don't need a grainmill. do i need to crack the beans you just mentioned?
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Edited by forrest (01/17/14 06:43 AM)
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Aleon
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19432127 - 01/17/14 07:33 AM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
forrest said: green lentils don't break while cooking like red/yellow do.
but i'm just searching for something besides grains i could use to let colonise, for wich i don't need a grainmill. do i need to crack the beans you just mentioned?
You can do it by hand after soaking, which is the Indonesion original method (well actually, they use their feet lol).
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19432399 - 01/17/14 09:42 AM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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You can also put dry beans in a blender and hit pulse a couple times, it's usually enough to break most of the beans.
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forrest



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thanks, i'll try the blender!
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19436336 - 01/18/14 04:13 AM (10 years, 13 days ago) |
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<= has been using normal yellow soy beans without the hulls.
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Aleon
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Quote:
liamtheloser said: You can also put dry beans in a blender and hit pulse a couple times, it's usually enough to break most of the beans.
Or a food processor; i have done this before and it worked, but i still needed to dehull/split by hand after it in order to get what i was looking for.
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19436934 - 01/18/14 09:17 AM (10 years, 13 days ago) |
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i read that if you crack them dry, you can then blow over them (like with a hairdryer) to blow away the hulls. but don;t know if it will work sufficient.
barnabey, where do you get your soybeans? the cheapest in the benelux i could find was santi-shop(.eu). do you by any chance know a place to buy organic cheap in bulk?
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Edited by forrest (01/18/14 09:18 AM)
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19438156 - 01/18/14 02:36 PM (10 years, 12 days ago) |
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Yep, I blow the hulls off with my mouth. I take the bowl of cracked beans outside and blow them into my garden.
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Barnabey
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I buy them in small quantities (bags of 500 grams) for about 1,60 euros per bag. They are organic whole soy beans with the hull, (and really removing the hull seems to be an annoying process whatever method you choose, who ever says they're just magically floating after shaking them once they've been soaked had a good dose of magic truffles). I live in the netherlands but prices are similar in france :o Since i'm just experimenting, I don't need bags of 900 pounds yet.
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19440727 - 01/19/14 01:16 AM (10 years, 12 days ago) |
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19440951 - 01/19/14 02:40 AM (10 years, 12 days ago) |
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Seems more complicated than a grain mill, but if there is no access to grain Mills in your area, it is good to innovate.
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Barnabey
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I just succeeded to make awesome tempeh without using any purchased starter or dehydrating anything with the following method :
1. Buy a pack of tempeh at your organic store. 2. Cut 90% into slices, fry it, add equal amounts of soy sauce / rice vinegar and sugar and eat it all like a dirty pig. 3. Take the 10% remaining fresh tempeh and a spoon or two of rice flour. 4. Blend this in your mixer. 5. Mix the blend with your cooked beans and give it about 30 degrees celcius for at least 24 hours. (Mine needed 36 hours, maybe because the tempeh was coming out of the fridge. (as for my super incubator I can make a picture too with comments if anyone is interested :p )

Now i'm not sure if I can do this permanently by using fresh tempeh as starter but I'll keep doing it and see what happens !
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fizzbin
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19452317 - 01/21/14 11:14 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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Mine finished up last night.
I bought my tempeh starter for $4 shipped off ebay.
To incubate, I put a sealed Rubbermade container over a floor heating vent. Mine also took ~36 hours to see growth start. I assumed because the heat automatically turns off at night.
-------------------- [quote]It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.[/quote] [cite]-- Carl Sagan[/cite]
Edited by fizzbin (01/21/14 11:14 AM)
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19452403 - 01/21/14 11:35 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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Nice! That looks delicious
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19452409 - 01/21/14 11:36 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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Wow, those look good! 
One guide i read about making starter recommended to let your tempeh sporulate, then slice it up, let dry out, pulverize in blender and mix with rice flour. This way you got spores mixed in.
One thing i'm still wondering about if it would be a big no to pressurecook the beans before letting them colonize? Because in the manuals you always have to halfcook them.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19452484 - 01/21/14 11:51 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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You can probably pressure cook them, but it would be a waste of time. They need to be barely cooked (I soak overnight and boil for 20-30 minutes) otherwise they're either too wet or too mushy
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forrest



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Well it would be to ensure sterile substrate... I'm a bit afraid to give people contammed food... Or would it be really easy to tell if it was?
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19452518 - 01/21/14 11:58 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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It's very easy to tell. It'll stink to high heaven and won't colonize.
Also, cook your tempeh, it's not good raw.
It will be sterile enough after boiling. And if you're thinking of selling it, you can pasteurize afterwards.
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fizzbin
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19452724 - 01/21/14 12:43 PM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
forrest said: Well it would be to ensure sterile substrate... I'm a bit afraid to give people contammed food... Or would it be really easy to tell if it was?
You also put in a few tablespoons of vinegar and supposedly that helps, but that might be ol'folk magic.
I PC'ed my blender'ed black beans for ~9minutes with minimal pressure in a 4qt PC after an 8 hour soak but I fear even that over cooked them. It's not as nutty as I like.
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Aleon
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19456288 - 01/22/14 06:12 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
fizzbin said:

Mine finished up last night.
I bought my tempeh starter for $4 shipped off ebay.
To incubate, I put a sealed Rubbermade container over a floor heating vent. Mine also took ~36 hours to see growth start. I assumed because the heat automatically turns off at night.
Is there something else in there besides black beans?
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Culland
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19456800 - 01/22/14 10:03 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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So I absolutely failed at making some new starter from my tempeh grow. I took one of my containers out of the incubator and then put it on the counter expecting it to finish and go grey. What it actually did was go yellow and get very stinky, not a good stink either.
Should I have left it in the incubator until it went grey?
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lipa

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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19456810 - 01/22/14 10:04 AM (10 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
fizzbin said:

Mine finished up last night.
I bought my tempeh starter for $4 shipped off ebay.
To incubate, I put a sealed Rubbermade container over a floor heating vent. Mine also took ~36 hours to see growth start. I assumed because the heat automatically turns off at night.
Is there something else in there besides black beans?
Looks like he spawned the beans with a grain jar.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19457260 - 01/22/14 11:56 AM (10 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Culland said: So I absolutely failed at making some new starter from my tempeh grow. I took one of my containers out of the incubator and then put it on the counter expecting it to finish and go grey. What it actually did was go yellow and get very stinky, not a good stink either.
Should I have left it in the incubator until it went grey?
Yes, don't take it out of the incubator, just leave a portion of it uncovered.
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Aleon
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: lipa]
#19459282 - 01/22/14 07:08 PM (10 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said:
Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
fizzbin said:

Mine finished up last night.
I bought my tempeh starter for $4 shipped off ebay.
To incubate, I put a sealed Rubbermade container over a floor heating vent. Mine also took ~36 hours to see growth start. I assumed because the heat automatically turns off at night.
Is there something else in there besides black beans?
Looks like he spawned the beans with a grain jar.
I know; but i was wondering if it was black quinoa or something because i have wanted to try chickpea + black quinoa.
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lipa

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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19459345 - 01/22/14 07:19 PM (10 years, 8 days ago) |
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That sounds like a good mix. I usually use chickpeas and rice regularly in mine. I will try it next time.
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Culland
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Quote:
liamtheloser said:
Quote:
Culland said: So I absolutely failed at making some new starter from my tempeh grow. I took one of my containers out of the incubator and then put it on the counter expecting it to finish and go grey. What it actually did was go yellow and get very stinky, not a good stink either.
Should I have left it in the incubator until it went grey?
Yes, don't take it out of the incubator, just leave a portion of it uncovered.
Ok thanks, going to try again this weekend.
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Aleon
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: lipa]
#19461436 - 01/23/14 08:33 AM (10 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said: That sounds like a good mix. I usually use chickpeas and rice regularly in mine. I will try it next time.
My partner just asked me about using rice; maybe ill give this a try too
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fizzbin
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19464004 - 01/23/14 06:24 PM (10 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
...
I know; but i was wondering if it was black quinoa or something because i have wanted to try chickpea + black quinoa.
Red quinoa 
I cooked it per normal directions, which was an accident. Be sure to cook it a bit less and dry it out super well.
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fizzbin
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19469897 - 01/24/14 10:51 PM (10 years, 6 days ago) |
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The first day I ate my tempeh, I was in a rush to get dinner started after jiujitsu so I cut it up and tossed it in a pan, where I only let 1 side fry, before I jumped in the shower. I totally forgot to wash my hands.
The next day I vomited for 4 hours then fell back asleep for 16. Woke up feeling fine.
That... probably wasn't the tempeh, just my nasty hands... right?
-------------------- [quote]It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.[/quote] [cite]-- Carl Sagan[/cite]
Edited by fizzbin (01/24/14 11:01 PM)
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Ganzig
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19470236 - 01/25/14 12:49 AM (10 years, 6 days ago) |
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Hmmmmm. I think you were made sick by something else. Or it was all rotten.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Ganzig]
#19470532 - 01/25/14 02:49 AM (10 years, 6 days ago) |
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Did the tempeh smell bad? I've eaten week old tempeh without getting sick. I'm going to guess you got food poisoning from not cooking it thoroughly after touching it with dirty hands.
Either that or maybe allergy?
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fizzbin
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I just smelt it and it's a bit sweet. I'm used to store bought tempeh having almost no oder, and the tempeh I made years ago having a very mild nutty/mushroom oder.
The sweet smell is a little bit like the apple cider vinegar I used.
-------------------- [quote]It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.[/quote] [cite]-- Carl Sagan[/cite]
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19474228 - 01/25/14 09:59 PM (10 years, 5 days ago) |
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Sweet is fine. It has a nutty taste, but the odor has always been unique. It doesn't smell like mushrooms at all to me, it smells sweet and slightly like socks. Sounds to me like your tempeh was fine.
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afk77
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interesting thread, ill deff be watching
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: afk77]
#19475213 - 01/26/14 04:32 AM (10 years, 5 days ago) |
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i'm waiting with making the tempeh till i fixed my incubator problems...  on the inside moisture condensates where the lid/door closes the ''freezer'', and after a while that moisture becomes mold...
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Aleon
The Power of Our Origins



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: fizzbin]
#19475620 - 01/26/14 07:38 AM (10 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
fizzbin said: I just smelt it and it's a bit sweet. I'm used to store bought tempeh having almost no oder, and the tempeh I made years ago having a very mild nutty/mushroom oder.
The sweet smell is a little bit like the apple cider vinegar I used.
I dont like using Apple cider vinegar; its changes the flavor of your tempeh; and if you use brags, possibly introduces other biological contaminants. I used cheap white vinegar. Also i add the vinegar to the boiling h2o (as most tempeh production facilities do), not directly to the beans after straining. I found this method gives less of that acidic smell/flavor. Got a batch of garbanzo + toasted sesame + flax meal that should be ready in a few hours I finally turned my oven into an incubator/oven and now have as much room as i need; i can fit 20-30lbs in there, if i wanted to.
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Barnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Aleon]
#19482405 - 01/27/14 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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So here is something you do not want to do :
Make your own starter by taking a piece of tempeh (yes the one you buy to eat) and mixing it with rice flour then mixing with soy beans then getting awesome looking tempeh, then letting it get grey black and putting it in the fridge then mixing it in the mixer without even mixing it with anything to make it less mushy mix that quickly with soy beans and incubate : you will get a damn ugly problem and smell and throw it all away.
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Culland
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19484943 - 01/28/14 06:27 AM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Another noobie question. Once my brick of tempeh goes grey, do I use the whole thing to make starter, or just the top quarter inch? How many hours, after tempeh is solid white, before it will be grey/black enough to use for starter, roughly?
Thanks!
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19485364 - 01/28/14 09:29 AM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Once it's gray I slice it thin and dry it out, the whole piece. Then I powder it in a food processor and mix with rice flour.
After your block is solid white, remove some of the cover and wait another 6-12 hours
It being black doesn't really affect taste
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Culland
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Well I screwed it up again, didnt spore out. Even in the incubator it just more or less rotted. After over 24 hours it smells bad and never went grey at all, just yellowish.
I made this batch of tempeh in a ziplock bag poked with holes. Worked great, much better than my first time.
I removed half for eating, then cut the bag open down one side and propped it open, but otherwise left it in the bag.
It just doesn't go grey and I am not sure why. My random guess is too much moisture? After the block turns white there is condensation on the bag.
Perhaps my thermometer is not very good and it is incubating at a slightly lower temperature? How low would it have to be for it to not spore out?
I only have enough starter for one more batch, so a few suggestions would be great.
Thanks
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19492314 - 01/29/14 04:42 PM (10 years, 1 day ago) |
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I've tried in a plastic bag before and it didn't work out for me. Glass casserole dish does it for me, cover in foil with holes poked. Then to sporulate I remove the foil but leave in the incubator til it's gray.
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Group
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19493804 - 01/29/14 09:12 PM (10 years, 1 day ago) |
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Maybe your starter is of a sporeless strain? I have read that some tempeh's are made not to sporulate.
?
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Group]
#19494697 - 01/30/14 01:45 AM (10 years, 1 day ago) |
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It's not a scoreless strain, I sent it to him
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forrest



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the cloning of tempeh worked!
in front of the hood i did the same as cloning a mushroom; tear it open, take tissue with clen scalpel, transfer to sterilised rye, incubate at 21 C / 70 F . after two days it has grown quite a bit, and the mycelium in both jars is the same so i'm quite positive it's not a contaminant ^_^
i don't have a better cam at the moment:
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19495590 - 01/30/14 09:34 AM (10 years, 1 day ago) |
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Nice! That jars would be solid white if you would have incubated at 85 tho, it loves the heat!
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forrest



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yeah, the incubator was stuffed with other cultures so i couldn't raise the temp so high. but i'm gonna see if i can let it sporulate after it is fully colonised, to make extra starter from.
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Barnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19495884 - 01/30/14 10:54 AM (10 years, 23 hours ago) |
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So I was going to try from freshly bought tempeh again but I just ate it all. So it will wait a little before my ultimate experience >:o
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
#19496008 - 01/30/14 11:24 AM (10 years, 22 hours ago) |
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Haha, that's always the danger!
I actually had to skip my tempeh ritual this week due to a busy Sunday last weekend so I'm jonesing for a fix.
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Culland
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Anyone have a picture of what it should look like when its grey and ready to dry into spores?
Once again my attempt to make more starter failed and I have no idea what I am doing wrong. I have great tempeh being made, I just cant seem to take it to the next step of going grey which to me seems should be simple enough.
This time I put it in glass containers. I left some with a lid on tight, lid on loose and no lid. I had to toss the one with a tight lid, it just got wet and disgusting smelling. The one with a loose lid looked really promising as it got really fuzzy white, but then it just sorta sat there without every going grey and now it starting to smell funny as well. The one with no lid is sorta greyish, but it just dried up. My tempeh was ready for eating sunday afternoon.
My two general thoughts are:
1) could the fact that I am using roasted soy prevent the tempeh from going to spore?
2) I cut my block of tempeh, eating half and sporing half. Could cutting the block put it into shock, sorta like plant transplant shock, and thus it just stops growing even though it has plenty of heat?
I think neither of those is likely, but I am running out of ideas.
Any pictures and/or suggestions would be appreciated, though I am now out of starter. I may try and grind up the dried up block and see if I can get that to work.
Thanks again from a tempeh noob.
Edited by Culland (02/04/14 09:51 PM)
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19523566 - 02/05/14 01:53 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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yeah, i would definitely let the whole thing sporulate, THEN cut half off and eat it. Sounds like you're having some troubles. Just do what I do and instead of using a glass container with a lid, use the glass container but make a lid out of aluminum foil and poke holes about one knife stab every 2 square inches. That will be enough gas exchange for sporulating but keep in enough moisture to make it not dry out. Letting it spore out doesn't affect the quality of the end product, it just makes it look different. You can't taste the spores. I re-use the same pieces of foil every week with no issues, so it's not a waste either.
It does not turn black, it just will turn slightly grey. If you have doubts, just touch a spot that is gray and it should get darker. That means it's full of spores.
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Culland
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Does thickness matter? How thick is your block?
Thanks
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Culland]
#19583430 - 02/18/14 12:39 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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my first tempeh is incubating, but after 30 hours there are still many places not entirely colonised, so i'm leaving it in there for another 24 hours. the first 12 hours it was more like 28 degrees in the incuubator, and after that about 30, so that might be the cause. it doesn't look too wet, and smells fine i think.
from the cloned tmpeh i put some on agar. and the jars of grains colonise lightly, but i think they have thouble with the hulls on the grains, so i'm gonna try to transfer some to well cooked rice.
liam, is your culture from gemcultures?
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Edited by forrest (02/18/14 12:40 AM)
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19583721 - 02/18/14 02:17 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, it is direct from Indonesia.
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lipa

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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19584322 - 02/18/14 08:56 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have noticed that other countries have better tempeh cultures than the US. They always are more aggressive and sporulate later. Especially when from European suppliers.
Lipa
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: lipa]
#19584419 - 02/18/14 09:43 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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That is nice to hear, being from europe. I'm now using a starter from topcultures, based here in holland, but they said that it sporulates less than usual. Which i find a disadvatage as i want to make starter again from my sporulating home made tempeh.
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lipa

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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19584572 - 02/18/14 10:34 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have the one they sell and like it. I put some on plain rice and let it sporulate. Then I dehydrate it and grind it up for starter in the blender. It sporulates just fine. Cardboard fruit boxes with a heating mat inside works well to accomplish this
Lipa
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: lipa]
#19584690 - 02/18/14 11:17 AM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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Nice!
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forrest



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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19594529 - 02/20/14 12:36 PM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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the first tempeh :

it's still not colonised at all spots after 48 hours in the incubator, but doesn't smell funny. i think maybe those spots didn't get enough oxygen.
it tasted quite different than the storebought one, i'm curious how this will taste after even more incubation time, and with garbanzobeans.
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liamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
#19595958 - 02/20/14 05:27 PM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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Might be lack of oxygen, but usually spots like that are from too much moisture. Beans should be dry to the touch, must be able to pass the toilet paper test.
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Haywire
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need this for reference
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