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OfflineBarnabey
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Tempeh Experience * 3
    #19203917 - 11/29/13 08:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So I like tempeh enough to compromise my shiitake and oyster agar cultures to try something like this :

I purchased tempeh in an organic store, ingredients say "organic" rhizopus culture (i don't know which one so I emailed them to ask) and soy beans and water.

My plan is to take a small piece of it like I would do to do any tissue transfer and put it on potatoe dextrose agar. For there, I would do another transfer (if needed ?) into another dish and then let it make spores in the petri dish.

Then by doing a spore print (like someone suggested in another post to put the petri dish upside down to get the spores, then mix the spores with rice flour (does it has to be sterelized ? how ? :O ) and hopefully get my own tempeh starter.

Does this make sense to anyone ? Should I just try to inoculate some rice or soy jars with the agar wedges and then use the soy/rice to inoculate more soy rice ?

(any advice that does not involve buying a started kit and using the one I purchased is welcome !)

Last one : Is there any sort of selection of strain to make when transfering rhizopus on agar? could that technique make a less healthy culture or isn't it just a perfect clone of the tempeh culture I purchased ?

Many thanks !


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Edited by Barnabey (11/29/13 08:18 AM)

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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
    #19204088 - 11/29/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

get a copy of 'the art of fermentation' by sandor katz.

he says to get spores, they're like $2.50 per packet online.  then you inoculate rice and let it colonize, fruit, and desiccate.  I'd use a filter disc.  Then put an oster blender base on the jar, you used a small mouth, right?  Blend it up and you should have enough tempeh starter for a longggg time!


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OfflineBarnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: drake89]
    #19204402 - 11/29/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the input, i'm going to try to find that sandor kats document / book !

How would you desiccate ? I have no experience in that, is this a powder a machine ? :laugh:


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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
    #19205086 - 11/29/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I make my own tempeh and culture, and its really easy.  No tissue culturing or anything like that.

Basically you cannot start from store bought tempeh, you have to buy some spores initially.  But once you have your first batch of tempeh, after its completely white (24 hours at 85 degrees fahrenheit) remove the lid (I use tin foil with holes poked in it).  After its exposed to air it'll sporulate, you can tell because it turns gray or black.  Once it reaches this stage you need to slice it up thin, dehydrate and then put through a coffee grinder or food processor until its a powder.  Simply cut it to 25% with rice flour and you have enough starter to last you through 50-100 pounds of soybeans.

The hardest part about making tempeh is cracking the soybeans, they cannot be whole, the fungus cannot penetrate the hull.  I use a grain mill on a loose setting to crack my beans.

Tempeh you make yourself is also way tastier than in the store.  I buy my organic soybeans from azure standard for cheap so it ends up costing me than 50 cents per pound to make tempeh.  (the dry beans are about 1.30 a pound, but hydrated they're heavier)

It's worth it if you're a vegan or vegetarian, because making tempeh turns soybeans from a difficult to digest source of protein into a ready-to-digest complete protein that also supplies a good amount of calcium, magnesium and some vitamin B-12. 

I've been making it for about 6 months now and use it in a lot of dishes, I always have some going.  If you want a few teaspoons of culture (enough for 4 cups of dried beans), let me know and I'll send some to you.

Also, there's no need to worry about sterile cultures or anything like that, the fungus is so prolific that I've never lost a batch, ever.  Out of 50 pounds of dried beans, it has never failed.

I just noticed you are in the netherlands, so there's no azure standard for you, but I'm sure you can find a source of cheap organic soybeans. Be sure to ask the place you order starter from if their tempeh sporulates.  Some places sell tempeh starter that is a different sporeless species.


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Edited by liamtheloser (11/29/13 02:38 PM)

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Offlineforrest
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19206855 - 11/29/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

and liam, did you ever have trouble with cross-contamination with your mushroom cultures?

this thread has made me quite interested in making tempeh, but that's a point i would worry about.

barnabey, i'm from the netherlands too, if you find a place to buy a culture a culture, could you post it?


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: forrest]
    #19206970 - 11/29/13 11:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No, never had cross contam and I incubate my tempeh in my spawn incubator.

I don't think tempeh would grow well on sawdust but I suppose it might.

I mix my tempeh spores in the kitchen, but do my mushroom stuff in the bathroom.


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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19207004 - 11/30/13 12:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Can it be grown on any other type of beans?

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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #19207008 - 11/30/13 12:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yep, any dehulled bean.  Soybean is the best tasting I've tried though.  I also liked black bean and quinoa. 

However, you need to cook the beans or grains only about halfway, the tempeh will "cook" it the rest of the way.  So with soybeans, you soak overnight and only cook for 30 minutes to an hour instead of 2-3 before drying, cooling and inoculating.  So for black beans, or other softer beans, that means soaking and then cooking for only 20 minutes or so.


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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19207034 - 11/30/13 12:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for that info :cool:

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OfflineBarnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #19207322 - 11/30/13 03:57 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you very much for all of the informations !

Now I am still confused about something "Basically you cannot start from store bought tempeh, you have to buy some spores initially."

=> Why why why ? Why is it that with fungus, tempeh or anything, we can only rely on commercial sources, are humans so good that they really cracked nature so well that such cultures can only be accomplishes by buying something ? Same thing for commercial mushrooms that apparently won't grow well from tissue culture even tho the commercial mushrooms should be a very nicely selected strain, but would be at the same time on the end of its performance just when we purchase it ?

(I'm only asking, I have yet to try and see by myself how miserable will my tempeh and shiitake and oyster be from commercially bought end products...)

The reason I ask WHY WHY WHY is because after inoculating tempeh on agar last night I read that most commercially sold tempeh are pasteurized and that it won't work and today when I woke up the tempeh was happily colonizing my plates. Now will this make spores ? And how in the tiny hell did humans succeed to control molds so it would not sporulate ?

And my market bought shiitake and oyster cloned from tissue are both showing very good looking growth to me so far !


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
    #19208290 - 11/30/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The commercial packages I've seen use a different type of fungus,  not the traditional sporulating one. And there's a reason for that.  Once they're in the store, if they turn black they look pretty gross.


Also, if you continue with the culture, you will have to be more concerned about sterility, etc.  Commercial companies don't care that they have to be sterile, because it helps with food safety, etc.  Might be more of a pain in the ass for you though.  Also, you have senescence to worry about when culturing.  The reason spores work so great is that there's so many spores that it instantly out competes every other possible contaminant.  Not sure how you'd do that with a culture. 

If I were you, I'd seriously invest in a little 2 dollar packet of spores, they will last you a lifetime, which is a very small investment.  But if you're just doing this as an experiment, you are free to do whatever you want.

Also, commercial tempeh in Europe might be different than here, but here every block of tempeh I've found in the store was made with rhizopus oryzae (the one that doesn't sporulate on beans), instead of the traditional rhizpous oligosporus.


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Edited by liamtheloser (11/30/13 12:50 PM)

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OfflineBarnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19212728 - 12/01/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting !

So now the first link I found about R. Oryzae was THIS and from the picture and description it seemed to be making MANY spores !

I'll try to finish my experience and get spores and see where I fail ! Then I will eventually get a kit ! But I'm still SO CONFUSED about senescence in general, I'm reading about it since 2 days and the more I read about it, the more confused I am !

(the way commercial mushrooms are selected to give maximum yield and be the best species, and at the same time be at the limit of senescence so if anyone try to clone that superbe expensive strain it will turn senescence after 2 agar transfers and give a horrible yeld suddently :O I would really love to read a long nice clear article about this, how many transfers does it take for this to take place, why how when with who why :laugh:


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OfflineBarnabey
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
    #19212750 - 12/01/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

An extra question :

Let's imagine for a second that my rizopus growing on agar is healthy and amazing and beautiful, how would I get it to make spores ? Do I just let it grow in the petri dish and it will do it on its own ? Do I need to give it more air ? I'm having a hard time finding details informations about it !


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
    #19213601 - 12/01/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So the reason that commercial farms have fruit bodies to close to senescence is that they expand to maximize their yields while still having a good quality fruit.  So they will take an agar wedge, transfer to grain, then split that grain into say 20 more grain jars, then from those 20 grain jars, split it into sawdust spawn, or whatever spawn they'll use, then inoculate a large bulk substrate with that.  At that point it has probably been split so much that it's close to senescence.  They want to get as much out of one generation of spawn as they can, so they take it to the limit.  You understand now?

And for your second question, maybe you have to get it to sporulate by introducing it to some environmental changes, or growing it on the right medium.  I have no doubt it sporulates eventually, but not as quick as r. oligosporus, otherwise they would have no need to use r. oryzae.  I should have taken a picture of my latest tempeh block before I ate it.  If you saw it in a store, you would not purchase it :wink:

You can try the same thing that causes oligosporus to sporulate, which is expose to dry air (remove the cover).  I always sporulate my tempeh because that exposure to air also removes the condensation that can cause tempeh to get a little slimey.  I only introduce dry air for 6 hours or so, and only after the beans are fully colonized.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19214163 - 12/01/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Man this is an awesome thread.  I can't believe I've been vegetarian for 5 years and haven't gotten into tempeh.  Only tried it a couple times at restaurants, but this thread is really making me want to give DIY tempeh a go...

:dancingbacon::machinegun:


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
    #19214231 - 12/01/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's great stuff. I stopped eating processed foods and store bought meat about 3 months ago.  Only meat I ever eat is if I'm lucky enough to catch a salmon or steelhead,  or if I go out squidding and catch some squid or shrimp. Which isn't very often, hah.  But I was eating tempeh before I stopped eating meat, just not as often.  It's great stuff, I cook it usually stir fried, or broiled, or in soups, it's pretty versatile and after you get in a groove with preparing it, it's super easy.  I just soak beans on Saturday night, boil and dry them on Sunday morning and put them in the incubator. Then i have tempeh for Monday morning and all week (I make a weeks worth, it stays fine in the fridge for a week).

I say give it a try, it's not expensive for soybeans, and the culture powder is cheap too.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: liamtheloser]
    #19214417 - 12/01/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

liamtheloser said:
I just soak beans on Saturday night, boil and dry them on Sunday morning and put them in the incubator. Then i have tempeh for Monday morning and all week (I make a weeks worth, it stays fine in the fridge for a week).

I say give it a try, it's not expensive for soybeans, and the culture powder is cheap too.




Hell yeah that sounds like my kind of routine.  I already do kombucha every other weekend, and prep most of my food for the week on Sunday, so that'd fit right in. 

So wait though... it only takes overnight?!


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Forrester]
    #19214777 - 12/01/13 09:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

liamtheloser said:
I just soak beans on Saturday night, boil and dry them on Sunday morning and put them in the incubator. Then i have tempeh for Monday morning and all week (I make a weeks worth, it stays fine in the fridge for a week).

I say give it a try, it's not expensive for soybeans, and the culture powder is cheap too.




Hell yeah that sounds like my kind of routine.  I already do kombucha every other weekend, and prep most of my food for the week on Sunday, so that'd fit right in. 

So wait though... it only takes overnight?!




yeah.  i made like 15lbs last year cause I harvested some edamame from my dad's garden.  it kept in the freezer quite well.  and its easy to just throw it in a skillet for 15 minutes and then you got protein!  stuff i made was way fluffier than the store bought which was nice.  I still got a couple gallons of beans left that I gotta try...theyre a year and a half old lol


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: drake89]
    #19214833 - 12/01/13 09:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I use an incubator, and they take less than 24 hours from split beans to full on tempeh. It's great! Especially in this hobby where everything takes weeks or months to colonize!

Once you put it in the fridge it stops growing (since it's a tropical fungus)

I've never frozen mine, but that would be good! Never thought to, I always eat mine all up, lol.


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Re: Tempeh Experience [Re: Barnabey]
    #19240753 - 12/07/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Anyone know a good spot to buy the starter spores? I found one place but for the 4.99 package of spores they wanted me to pay $77 shipping to Canada. Seems like the kind of thing that would be covered by a stamp :smile:

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