Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Here's political thing that pisses me off...
    #19203485 - 11/29/13 03:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I am of the opinion that the Citizen's United ruling was a really bad idea. Furthermore, corporations are not "people". Thoughts? Comments? Keep it civil folks. :wink:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestarfire_xes
I Am 'They'
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 1 day
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #19203559 - 11/29/13 04:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
I am of the opinion that the Citizen's United ruling was a really bad idea. Furthermore, corporations are not "people". Thoughts? Comments? Keep it civil folks. :wink:





I believe that calling corporations 'people' is for the purpose of having someone to sue in lieu of an individual.  Otherwise, it would be hard to bring a suit against a company if you couldn't find a real person to blame.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19203562 - 11/29/13 04:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I see. Well, I still don't like that ruling. It gives them too much influence in the political process.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #19204806 - 11/29/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Tough shit.  Unions can broadcast all the crap they want and so can the news media, almost all of whom are, wait for it, corporations.  Citizens United was a start to taking away the fraudulent media's power to control.  Almost every fucking page of the NY Times should be considered a campaign contribution to Democrats.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,505
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19204999 - 11/29/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
I see. Well, I still don't like that ruling. It gives them too much influence in the political process.



I think you're misunderstanding the impact of the ruling.  The point is that people have the right to freedom of speech.  No speech is more protected than political speech.  If you and I can both spend money to endorse or criticize a candidate, why shouldn't we be able to pool our money and make better use of it?

That really is all Citizen's United stands for.  It recognizes that PACs are just groups of like minded people pooling their money to get their message out more broadly.

Keep in mind that the alternative is far more unfair.  Without the ability to pool money, only the rich could afford to advertise for or against a candidate effectively.  The average joe would be virtually unheard in comparison.  Citizen's United allows 10000 average joes to be heard when they pool their money together.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Enlil]
    #19207173 - 11/30/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well, okay, that makes sense, but still wouldn't that come down to $ voting instead of people?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19207187 - 11/30/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Obviously they are not people, because people have the ability to claim rights independently, not as a conglomeration. A corporation is much more akin to an Idea, which is only existing in peoples minds rather than existing in reality. If it is many people that make a corporation then how can a corporation be a person?

Does a mother give birth to a corporation through her vaginal orifice?

Makes no sense to me.

I mean a fetus has less rights, and it is way closer to a human/person.

Simple ratification, define people as having the human attribute, derp.

I really don't know of any people that aren't human, do you?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207194 - 11/30/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Looks like the corporations haven't convinced the dictionaries yet . . lol

Quote:



peoΒ·ple
ˈpΔ“pΙ™l/Submit
noun
1.
human beings in general or considered collectively.
"the earthquake killed 30,000 people"
synonyms: human beings, persons, individuals, humans, mortals, (living) souls, personages, men, women, and children; More
the citizens of a country, esp. when considered in relation to those who govern them.
noun: the people
"his economic reforms no longer have the support of the people"
synonyms: citizens, subjects, electors, voters, taxpayers, residents, inhabitants, (general) public, citizenry, nation, population, populace More
those without special rank or position in society; the populace.
noun: the people
"he is very much a man of the people"
synonyms: common people, proletariat, masses, populace, rank and file, commonality, plebeians; More
a person's parents or relatives.
noun: one's people; plural noun: one's peoples
"my people live in West Virginia"
synonyms: family, parents, relatives, relations, folks, kinsmen, kin, kith and kin, kinsfolk, flesh and blood, nearest and dearest More
the supporters or employees of a person in a position of power or authority.
noun: one's people; plural noun: one's peoples
"I've had my people watching the house for some time now"
the state prosecution in a trial.
plural noun: People; noun: the People
"pretrial statements made by the People's witnesses"
2.
the men, women, and children of a particular nation, community, or ethnic group.
"the native peoples of Canada"
synonyms: race, (ethnic) group, tribe, clan More
verb
verb: people; 3rd person present: peoples; past tense: peopled; past participle: peopled; gerund or present participle: peopling
1.
(of a particular group of people) inhabit (an area or place).
"an arid mountain region peopled by warring clans"
synonyms: populate, settle (in), colonize, inhabit, live in, occupy; More






So I guess our government redefines definition as is seen fit for their wallets.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207205 - 11/30/13 02:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

human beings in general or considered collectively.



that sounds like a corporation to me :shrug:


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19207212 - 11/30/13 02:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The corporation isn't the beings, they are the idea of the beings, which to me is a huge difference.

A corporation doesn't literally speak, sleep, eat or shit. It doesn't have DNA and it isn't alive, a living being should have more rights than a corporation, because a living being can feel pain. Your idea feels no pain, it has no cns.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207218 - 11/30/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i corporation is a group of people acting together for a single goal. Corporations are made of of living beings. When a corporation decides something it is a group of humans deciding something.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19207222 - 11/30/13 02:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The corporation isn't literally made of human beings, it is made of their idea's. The corporations could die and the humans still live, but if the humans all died, would the corporations remain?

We can look at it from the natural stand point as well. If nature is everything besides humans and their creations then are corporations considered natural?

Only natural beings are alive. Idea's don't have rights in reality, only in a psuedo economical ponzi scheme, would they have the rights that natural living beings have.


Edited by teknix (11/30/13 02:36 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207227 - 11/30/13 02:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If all the people of a tribe dies, the tribe ceases to exist, can you say that is true of a corporation? There are so many differences it is ridiculous to even consider a corporation as a person.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207228 - 11/30/13 02:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the reason corporations have rights is because corporations are people. Its as simple as that, 'corporation' is simply a legal term recognizing a group acting together. Why should people lose rights when working together as a group?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19207241 - 11/30/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Corporation don't just have rights, they have peoples rights . .

Sure they should have rights, but they shouldn't be considered as a person, it is too far imo, especially when many other living beings do not get those rights, which imo, are way in front of the corporations in line.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207242 - 11/30/13 02:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

why should a group of people have less rights than a single person?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19207245 - 11/30/13 02:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The people already have rights . .


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207248 - 11/30/13 02:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Can a corporation give people more rights some how or even at all?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207250 - 11/30/13 02:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

a corporation is a group of people acting together. So if a group of people are building computers together why should they have less rights than a single person building a computer in his garage?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19207254 - 11/30/13 02:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not really, there are a few people in a corporation acting together over the others. You think everyone in a coorporation has an equal say?

The head honcho's speak for the corps,(like 3-10 people out of hundreds) not the people in general as you make it seem.

Why does a corp need right if the people already have them?

So if I spit on an office building I should be charged with assaulting a person?

If I break a window out of a building then I am hurting a person, as in causing them literal pain?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207258 - 11/30/13 02:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

depending on the business structure employee say has more or less effect. For instance in the Virgin group many of the subsidiary companies have been started by employees who had a good idea. Coops are another example of employees having a larger pull.  Because a corporation acts independently of the individual members. CEO john smith has the right to free speech, so why should the company that employs him not have an equal right to free speech?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: psyconaught]
    #19207260 - 11/30/13 03:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Because he's a coward and can't speak for himself and take responsibility and would rather blame it on the corporation than himself?

Something intangible to hide behind is all it is.

He didn't bankrupt the company, the company just went bankrupt.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207268 - 11/30/13 03:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Look, it's the people who caused the company to go bankrupt, the company didn't just go bankrupt. Should we blame it on the company for losing all the money?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: teknix]
    #19207275 - 11/30/13 03:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

its impossible to create a catch all answer for that. is this an enron situation? Or did a new technology develop so demand went away thats why the company went bankrupt? There are an infinite number of scenarios so i cannot give one answer. A bad business model could be to blame, incompetent leadership, bad markets, competitions had a superior product, enron like situations, etc.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,505
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #19207420 - 11/30/13 05:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Well, okay, that makes sense, but still wouldn't that come down to $ voting instead of people?



Corporations can't vote.  They can spend money to advertise.  Whether that ultimately swings the vote is another issue, and one that is unlikely to be solved.  Look at the bigger picture:

1.  If people couldn't pool money to advertise for a candidate, then only the very rich could do it. OUTCOME: The rich control the process

2.  If no one could advertise for or against a candidate, then all elections would come down to word of mouth.  The rich can afford more "friends" to spread the word.  OUTCOME: only the rich would control the process.



The bottom line is that it comes down to freedom of speech.  I don't like the idea that our perceptions of candidates can be almost wholly shaped by paid advertisements, either.  That is the way it is, though, and there's really no way to change it without taking away basic freedoms that are essential to a republican form of government.

The only remedy is a more educated and vigilant citizenry....one that can and will look at the candidates and the issues instead of the 30 second commercials on TV.  Until we've achieved that, money will continue to sway elections.  Citizens United at least has the potential to give the not-so-rich a voice among the other clatter.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: Enlil]
    #19208094 - 11/30/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Well, okay, that makes sense, but still wouldn't that come down to $ voting instead of people?



Corporations can't vote.  They can spend money to advertise.  Whether that ultimately swings the vote is another issue, and one that is unlikely to be solved.  Look at the bigger picture:

1.  If people couldn't pool money to advertise for a candidate, then only the very rich could do it. OUTCOME: The rich control the process

2.  If no one could advertise for or against a candidate, then all elections would come down to word of mouth.  The rich can afford more "friends" to spread the word.  OUTCOME: only the rich would control the process.



The bottom line is that it comes down to freedom of speech.  I don't like the idea that our perceptions of candidates can be almost wholly shaped by paid advertisements, either.  That is the way it is, though, and there's really no way to change it without taking away basic freedoms that are essential to a republican form of government.

The only remedy is a more educated and vigilant citizenry....one that can and will look at the candidates and the issues instead of the 30 second commercials on TV.  Until we've achieved that, money will continue to sway elections.  Citizens United at least has the potential to give the not-so-rich a voice among the other clatter.




I see. Doesn't sound all that bad now that you've explained it better. Thank you, good sir. :hatsoff:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Here's political thing that pisses me off... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19208257 - 11/30/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So much ignorance in one thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

Quote:

Corporate personhood is the legal concept that a corporation may be recognized as an individual in the eyes of the law. This doctrine forms the basis for legal recognition that corporations, as groups of people, may hold and exercise certain rights under the common law and the U.S. Constitution. For example, corporations may contract with other parties and sue or be sued in court in the same way as natural persons or unincorporated associations of persons. The doctrine does not hold that corporations are flesh and blood "people" apart from their shareholders, officers, and directors, nor does it grant to corporations all of the rights of citizens.




Not a fucking one of you bothered to look it up.

Unions are allowed to run unfettered political ads and make contributions.  Newsmedia are allowed to make all the endorsements and skew their coverage all they want.  Not for nothing but this outrage over the ability of corporations to have the same rights as other collections of people speaks not to fascism so much as a totalitarian desire to shut off the free speech rights of those who you think might disagree with you.  This is thuggery


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Politics is synonymous to WWF wrestling usefulidiot 652 10 09/29/04 02:21 PM
by Innvertigo
* Arm yourself with info- 60 reasons we shouldnt be at war
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
PsiloKitten 11,189 93 11/02/13 08:08 PM
by Yogi1
* (True) Libertarians Battle the Corporate State Evolving 1,486 3 04/10/04 05:16 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Dean and the Corporate Media FrankieJustTrypt 976 5 02/15/04 12:51 PM
by silversoul7
* When You Say You Hate Corporate America...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Anonymous 15,080 140 12/29/02 06:05 PM
by djfrog
* Libertarians and corporations. Phluck 1,093 8 03/03/04 07:24 PM
by zappaisgod
* Now THIS pisses me off... GernBlanston 446 9 06/03/04 09:30 AM
by grib
* religion in politics
( 1 2 3 all )
blaze2 6,275 42 01/27/05 04:07 PM
by SoopaX

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,242 topic views. 2 members, 6 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.