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InvisibleViolet
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: 36fuckin5] * 1
    #19201681 - 11/28/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
I am completely against the idea of those plastic reusable containers. A wide area to grow out isn't an advantage. It allows much more room for contams. They also use much more agar than needed, and you can't ship them if you wanna trade a culture. You can barely see through them to spot contams.



All complete garbage.

A wide grow-out area is an advantage, requiring fewer dishes and giving each more inoc power.  "More room for contams" is folly.  You need proper sterile tech regardless. If anything, your point ensures there's plenty of room to isolate from any potential contam without touching it.

They take only 20-25 mL per container, meaning 500mL of agar still makes 20+ dishes just like pouring petris.
You must have no actual experience in this, nor have done the math at least.

If you want to trade a culture, use something else, such as wedges like most people. Many people think fragile cheap plastic dishes are a shit way to ship also anyways.

I can so easily see growth and contams in my CLEAR plastic containers.  Duh.

Your claim is plain-old-fashioned bullshit from someone who clearly doesn't really know.  Thus why you chose to speak on this is baffling.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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OfflineTheCyndicate
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: anne halonium]
    #19201682 - 11/28/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

anne halonium said:
Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
But almost every experienced cultivator I've ever talked to uses regular plastic petris, myself included.





*you should get out more frank.
modern labs use culture bottles wholesale these days.

i think your refering to just the growers, you know,
who have limited pro lab experience.
hardly a sample of what goes on globally in biotech.

fact is, polycarb culture bottles ,
are a excellent choice. for the informed.



frank always suggests, whatever he does is standard.
sometime it is , sometimes its only his POV.

my standard, is rise to achieve "cutting edge."
yours should be also.
following the pack, is not leading the grow.
its just replicating, and replicating , always winds up outdated.



500 ml polycarb culture bottles, each one has 50 sq cm agar.

no slopping, no breaking, no polyfilm , easily decontaminated, silent, easily stored , and long lasting.
they pour and PC in one shot.

i used both glass and plastic dishes in 80's and 90's
culture bottles contam lower rate IMO by a margin.
unless theres a specific need, i never intend to use petris again.

before anyone pops up, and suggests
" ability to work with the openings impairs"
of course it does if ya lack any sense of imagination.

theres a screwdriver , for every occasion with polycarbs,
and oddly, screw drivers work better for agar, than exacto knives!!!!

experience, leads me to suggest,
one can outrun petri agar farms with polycarbs, based on contams, handling and size.

huh? what handling?
if your a 3 dish farm , no one cares,
however, for the larger agar farms,
stacking any serious amount of petris is a farce at best.
my op is tight, i dont grow sitcom style.
polycarbs stack right, tight, neat and clean every time

" to each their own" shouldnt be suggested to encourage any low standard, or allow for mediocrity as a norm.
" to each their own" should be in context, that all strive for excellence.


in the new age, expect more,
for you ,your grow, and your equipment.





I just wanna know one thing . How are you able to extract a wedge ...say like in front of a flow hood ...with the only opening being the lid . I always try to keep the clean air blowing in to the culture. So I would imagine this would  be difficult doing in this situation.  And also those bottles have a lot unused surface area . They also look like they are some what bulky . Just my observation.

Cyn


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: anne halonium]
    #19201687 - 11/28/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:laugh2:
give it a rest already nobody cares about your lab standards they don't scare anyone:lmafo:
i'm sure there's labs all over the world using glad tupperware containers:laugh2:
:rolleyes:


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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Invisibledusttodust


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 491
Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: cronicr]
    #19201722 - 11/28/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think most people here are involved with recreational mycology, thats why advanced aproach may not be the best option.

Petris use far less space than bottles, right?

I think that any container that is sterile can be used, diversity is beautiful. Thinking in many diffrent ways bring new inventions and pushes science forward. And when u criticize Frank, i have to tell you that he taught me to dunk grains. He made an important step in mycology and I wouldnt call him old fashioned.

Even if polycarbonate is better than other materials, the diffrence IMO isnt so big. Glass, plastic or polycarbonate petri is still petri dish nevertheless. But i will look into polycarbonate material, it sounds interesting.


Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
To each their own.....



Quote:

cronicr said:
just try them all or pick one, whatever gets you your clean culture that's the point:thumbup:




Edited by dusttodust (11/28/13 05:40 PM)


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Invisibleanne halonium
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: cronicr]
    #19201760 - 11/28/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

they are actaully easy to use.
they can be had in any size.
i like the .5 litre ones,
cuz a few containers , can make gallons of slurry in seconds.
gallons, and i mean seconds, pop lids , add sterile water and shake.

think about it, millions are made every yr for biotech.
they are DESIGNED as culture bottles. by pros , for pros.
simply master the skills like the pros that use em.
you act like that would kill ya.


cornicr, i worked in university labs before you were born.
pro biotech workers have standards.
you do not.
and it shows , in your posts.

it also shows, in your inexperience of various lab culture contianers,
and most of all, you have the option of offering sound advice on agar,and its handling ,
but ,you choose to simply make assumptions of who does what where.

im pretty confident, from all your posts ive seen,
no serious biotech company would let you in the door, therefore, its no surprise, standard modern lab items, cause you such worry.

my work here is done......
youll all see more in annies " annie does agar" thread......
coming soon.

see ya there cronic.


--------------------
:aliendance:


Edited by anne halonium (11/28/13 06:12 PM)


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: Violet]
    #19201769 - 11/28/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
I am completely against the idea of those plastic reusable containers. A wide area to grow out isn't an advantage. It allows much more room for contams. They also use much more agar than needed, and you can't ship them if you wanna trade a culture. You can barely see through them to spot contams.



All complete garbage.

A wide grow-out area is an advantage, requiring fewer dishes and giving each more inoc power.  "More room for contams" is folly.  You need proper sterile tech regardless. If anything, your point ensures there's plenty of room to isolate from any potential contam without touching it.

They take only 20-25 mL per container, meaning 500mL of agar still makes 20+ dishes just like pouring petris.
You must have no actual experience in this, nor have done the math at least.

If you want to trade a culture, use something else, such as wedges like most people. Many people think fragile cheap plastic dishes are a shit way to ship also anyways.

I can so easily see growth and contams in my CLEAR plastic containers.  Duh.

Your claim is plain-old-fashioned bullshit from someone who clearly doesn't really know.  Thus why you chose to speak on this is baffling.





Your just being mean. And not only in that post either lol.

You too annie lol. Though I am looking forward to that tek :smile:. I like the idea of the bottles, large area, readily available, reusable, pcable.. Only thing is I have no idea how id work through that bottle neck lol. If I can see it done I may buy some to see if I can do it too.


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Invisibleanne halonium
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: Valyr]
    #19201799 - 11/28/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

last word for me.
think of it as tough love from auntie annie.

i have direct, long term experience ,
with all sorts of petris,
and all sorts of culture bottles, both professional,and ad hoc.
i just gave ya the report, with pictures.

anyone, with similar experience,
and pics, is welcome to make their case.

i tell you guys this stuff,
because i want every grower,
to be their best.
thats it.

up to date info, and direct experience reports, is how everyone wins.

oh , and naturally, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
those who combine an opinion, and attempt to defame me, had better know exactly what they are talking about............
im well known for swatting grow trolls, like fungal gnats.


in the new age.




--------------------
:aliendance:


Edited by anne halonium (11/28/13 06:07 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: Violet] * 1
    #19202258 - 11/28/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:

Plastic disposed petris Suck IMHO.
People keep using them not because they're somehow actually the best option but because they're cheap at face value.  However despite their lack of monetary expense, the price of such reckless plastic waste is greater. 5-10¢ for a sterile plastic dish is an artificially low value.





Spare us.  The amount of plastic petri dishes a busy cultivator throws out in a year is less than most people toss out in soda bottles every single day. 

Petri dishes perform best when shallow and easy to work in, so that leaves plastic or glass.  Glass costs much more originally, and costs again and again in energy and cleaning costs to sterilize for re-use. Ditto for pp5 containers. You also have to keep them sterile until pouring.  Keep those kinds of things in mind when deciding.  I prefer pre-sterilized plastic dishes.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinerumfor69
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19202347 - 11/28/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I always used the little wide mouth ball jars and an SFD on them. 

It makes it hard to see the myce from the top but a flash light from 

underneath seems fine IMO. I found it convenient to mix PDA right in 

the jar enough to cover the bottom then pressure cook for 15 mins 15psi


--------------------

Links For Beginners And Beyond:mspoil:


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OfflineTheCyndicate
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: TheCyndicate]
    #19202380 - 11/28/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:









I just wanna know one thing . How are you able to extract a wedge ...say like in front of a flow hood ...with the only opening being the lid . I always try to keep the clean air blowing in to the culture. So I would imagine this would  be difficult doing in this situation.  And also those bottles have a lot unused surface area . They also look like they are some what bulky . Just my observation.

Cyn




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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: TheCyndicate]
    #19202551 - 11/28/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i will gladly see you there annie no worries, all i'm saying is each of what was discussed has it's ups and downs but all have the ability to get the job done which is the important thing and i wannna know what one the op chooses, you just see what you wanna see but thats ok nuthing wrong with being a little ocd:thumbup:


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: cronicr]
    #19202596 - 11/28/13 09:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I only got one question for Annie and its sincere. How the hell do you get a scalpel in those bottles :lol: :confused:

As for me, while I love me some Y and X plates, they are easier to work in for sure, I don't love the price, or the cost of parafilm for that matter (tried using saran and it just didn't feel right). For me no pour pp5 glad mini rounds do the lions share of the work. The mini rounds are small, the pop top is way easier to deal with in a SAB than screw tops. But that being said plastic petris look the best in pictures and are super easy to handle. I like both, depending on what im doing with them.


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19202646 - 11/28/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I only got one question for Annie and its sincere. How the hell do you get a scalpel in those bottles :lol: :confused:





If you'd read, she uses a screwdriver. IDK how, it's some wingnut shit, but that's how it goes and apparently it works for her.

I'll stand by my previous statement, and my main argument, that there is WAY too much exposed agar. I use 60mm plates because to reach the center, I never have to put any part of my scalpel handle over the dish. Every single molecule, plus another quarter inch of my blade, which is flame sterilized, will not cover the radius of my petri, which allows me to only ever have flame-sterilized metal directly over my petri.

Violet, IDK where you grow, but I can guarantee that your spore count isn't higher than mine. I have a shitload of live flora around me and an awful Aspergillus problem. I would not trust a goddam thing that hasn't been heated to red hot to be over my exposed agar for a millisecond. It's a recipe for disaster in my environment.

Urban growing is all fine and dandy, but a lot of us live in the middle of nowhere where we don't necessarily have a decent environment to grow in or the thousands to spend that it takes to isolate a clean room. We live around life. That life produces pollen and spores. We have to work with that.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #19202720 - 11/28/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I only got one question for Annie and its sincere. How the hell do you get a scalpel in those bottles :lol: :confused:





If you'd read, she uses a screwdriver. IDK how, it's some wingnut shit, but that's how it goes and apparently it works for her.




Whoa calm down thar. Guess you never misread a post before. Maybe instead of "harder than your husband" your title should read "bitchier than my wife" :lol:

Regardless whether she's using a screwdriver or a rusty hanger I don't see how you would have much control reaching in there :shrug:


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19202757 - 11/28/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I only got one question for Annie and its sincere. How the hell do you get a scalpel in those bottles :lol: :confused:





If you'd read, she uses a screwdriver. IDK how, it's some wingnut shit, but that's how it goes and apparently it works for her.




Whoa calm down thar. Guess you never misread a post before. Maybe instead of "harder than your husband" your title should read "bitchier than my wife" :lol:




Apparently you haven't either. I took no offense. Tone of voice is everything, and is hard to convey in text. :heart:

Quote:

Regardless whether she's using a screwdriver or a rusty hanger I don't see how you would have much control reaching in there :shrug:




You could have plenty of control with a steady hand. But working with a flowhood or a SAB, flaming outside of your sterile flow, you could not possibly keep enough of your tool red-hot to cover your entire amount of exposed agar without burning yourself.

I want enough of my tool red-hot to reach over my intended inoculation point by at least 1/4". So if I'm using a 60mm plate, I want 75 mm of my tool to be red hot before it enters my sterile airflow. That way I can have no doubt about the sterility of the part of my tool that matters.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #19202769 - 11/28/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Don't you look at me in that tone of voice!                :crankey:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #19202770 - 11/28/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Plastic disposed petris Suck IMHO.
People keep using them not because they're somehow actually the best option but because they're cheap at face value.  However despite their lack of monetary expense, the price of such reckless plastic waste is greater. 5-10¢ for a sterile plastic dish is an artificially low value.




Spare us.  The amount of plastic petri dishes a busy cultivator throws out in a year is less than most people toss out in soda bottles every single day. 



Wow RR, I'm extremely surprised to hear such environmental apathy from you.

How can such a point truly make sense without spin, justifications, double-standards?
Does a huge waste of plastic by morons make a seemingly lesser plastic waste okay and excused?
Should someone get away with theft on the basis that a rape is being committed somewhere else right now?

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Glass costs much more originally, and costs again and again in energy and cleaning costs to sterilize for re-use. Ditto for pp5 containers.



Oh you bet that's true for glass.

Not true for pp5 containers.  They pass heat extremely quickly.  I cook 20 pp5 agar dishes in a 16qt cooker for 25-30 minutes, 5-10 minutes less than a quart jar with that 500mL of agar.
A set of 20 disposed petris requires a 30-40 minute cooker run for its agar, and still requires the pour to boot!

Besides, the energy that went into the PRE-STERILIZED dishes at all stages ought not be forgotten, and is only utilized ONCE before disposal.


Usually scooping/knocking the old agar out is enough to prepare them for loading the next round.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You also have to keep them sterile until pouring.



You must be joking.  "No-pour agar containers"???
Or did you mean this about the pre-sterilized disposed petris?  That's the only thing it applies to.  Thanks for adding another very valid point to my list of comparisons.

The sterilized pre-poured plastic containers for agar don't require a pour.  Only being allowed to cool - which they can do inside the cooker by-the-way instead of having to time pouring a jar of agar before gelled at all, another noteworthy point.  Sterile success chance is greater, and none are ever lost without being used.  I never sit around waiting for 2 days to find out if any -and if so how many- of the carefully hand-poured plastic disposed dishes are going to go into the garbage contamm'd without even being used, due to the pour step.  I sure used to before I fully realized that disposed dishes are Lame.




Anyone else want to try their hand at explaining how single-use disposed un-cookable plastics are equal to or greater than sterilizable reusable ones?




Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Violet, IDK where you grow, but I can guarantee that your spore count isn't higher than mine.
I have a shitload of live flora around me and an awful Aspergillus problem.



Whaddya know, me too!  Down to the Aspergillus problem.    Might have to reconsider your guarantee.
I could hardly grow anything here before switching to all-sterile.  Most 'bulks' including PF cakes usually contam'd before second flushes.  Yep that's right, even fully-colonized substrates.
If anything I'd rather bet that your live spore count isn't as high as mine, unless you live in the same kind of environment as I do, which based on your description is quite possible.


By the way, about your "reaching" concerns over agar...
When I begin my sterile work, I pull my scalpel out of an aluminum foil 'sleeve' that I sterilized the scalpel in along with whatever the sterile work is being done on.  The whole tool has thus been sterilized, and I flame only the blade of the tool itself to prevent cross-contamination.  I have an over 99% sterile rate, seeing 1 mold contam and 1 bacterial contam in the last about 250 transfers I've done, despite a wide area per dish ;]


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


Edited by Violet (11/28/13 10:05 PM)


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #19202828 - 11/28/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I only got one question for Annie and its sincere. How the hell do you get a scalpel in those bottles :lol: :confused:





If you'd read, she uses a screwdriver. IDK how, it's some wingnut shit, but that's how it goes and apparently it works for her.




Whoa calm down thar. Guess you never misread a post before. Maybe instead of "harder than your husband" your title should read "bitchier than my wife" :lol:




Apparently you haven't either. I took no offense. Tone of voice is everything, and is hard to convey in text. :heart:



No worries, I just been drinkin too much and pissed that I can't smoke weed for another 2 weeks
:kingcrankey:


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: Violet]
    #19202833 - 11/28/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm just gonna say, IDK how much you grow, I know how much Anne grows. We've talked about it personally. With the efforst she puts in over 3 months, I did the math and I double her yield and I do it cheaper. I know how much RR grows, at least for Shiitakes. I'm in awe. I have a good idea of how much FH grows and I'm in awe. I have a good idea of how much NAH grows, and it probably matches mine.

You derive your ideas from Anne. I've done the math, and I do better than her, even with my contam problems.

I'm done here. Any serious pros will side with me and RR. Anne is the only person I know of with years of experience that will argue. IME, if you don't have 5-10 years of experience, you haven't dealt with every situation that will come up, and even in that time frame, unless you try to grow in some FUCKED UP places like I have, you won't see all the contams you could. I respect Anne's arguments, because I know she's been at it forever. Way longer than me. I don't agree with her methods for everyone, but I believe they live up to her standards.

Violet, while I respect your opinion, I have to keep in mind how many agar transfers you could have possibly done in 2 years as opposed to how many some of us older people have done it in 10+ years. I've been growing a LOT of mushrooms for a LOT of years in a LOT of different environments. I've had lots of time to figure out what works everywhere and what is environment-specific.

Main point being, don't push something as gospel until you've produced multiple hundreds of pounds in multiple locations. Every environment is different, and mushroom farming IS NOT A SCIENCE yet. As a whole, we really don't know shit. Nobody can write a gospel yet.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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InvisibleViolet
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Re: Glass vs Plastic petri dishes, cant decide [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #19202938 - 11/28/13 10:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Mushroom growing is an extremely fun hobby for me and I love playing with it in all kinds of ways.
However I have some aspects of my life where I have aspired to mastercraft-quality work and/or innovations to style.  I did such in less time than most people of my caliber spent just going to school for those things alone.
A conversation started by a veteran asking how I got my practise as such with so little time quickly ended when he couldn't follow my answers, making evident that I learned more in two years of experience and practise than he did in fifteen.
The drive to learn and improve put it on a point of priority for me to where I simply learned more than he'd made a point of over far longer.  And my style of mind was always keen to learn something in any given moment of the practises where others became content to repeat the simple processes of the learned labor.
All the time I get set-in-their-ways old hands use known inferior practices, grunting "I've been doing this 30 years" as their defense when it's addressed, speaking to me as if it should have already been known, given, that they are not in question about that.


I don't say that to be egotistical.  That didn't make me "better" than that man any more than his fifteen years would have made him "better" than me were it not just shown otherwise.
I say it to remind you not to pander to years of experience itself carrying more weight than it truly does.  Not saying you did that, just that your statements come line-toeing close to that fallacy.
I'm not saying I'm better than you.  If you're so unwise to say you're better than me, with that as your excuse, I'll get to protesting.
Besides, I've been at home myco longer than I've had this Shroomery account. (Not years longer tho)


So in following suit with you,
I've seen how all those people grow too, and impressed as I am with their success, after fully experiencing the bulk teks I first learned here I personally found them lacking or troublesome or inefficient.
Short  fact is I do far more now with far less, and am not fighting contams or environment or disposal or whatever anymore.  It's all a breeze, growing like a dream.  Sometimes it's even a little hard to believe that growing so powerfully and effectively can be so small and simple.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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