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Offlinemisterjingo
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19201935 - 11/28/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

Synthe said:
Quote:

Biodiversity said:
It's over a 1000 now.


I wonder if it will ever fall back down.  I am starting to think it won't.



It has to fall down eventually... and when it does, we buy in.



Why does it "have" to?




Cause currently it's value is buoyed purely by speculation (greed) rather than utility. Yes, you might be able to buy a beer with btc in some European country, or some junk on a couple of sites, but on the whole, most people are buying in to make money.

Once this bubble pops (just look at the recent growth rates), the BTC forums are going to be an entertaining read.


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Offlinemisterjingo
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: Biodiversity]
    #19201954 - 11/28/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Biodiversity said:
Early on, bitcoins seemed to be centered mainly in the drug trade, though I may be wrong.  Now its growing and is becoming more legitament world wide.





There are still some fairly big drug .onions sites out there. The day after SR went down, a ton of SR vendors transferred over to another fairly well known site. I check it out occasionally and it seems most of the old SR crowd are over there now. So I'd say drugs still play a big part in btc's utility.


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: misterjingo]
    #19202234 - 11/28/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

misterjingo said:
Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

Synthe said:
Quote:

Biodiversity said:
It's over a 1000 now.


I wonder if it will ever fall back down.  I am starting to think it won't.



It has to fall down eventually... and when it does, we buy in.



Why does it "have" to?




Cause currently it's value is buoyed purely by speculation (greed) rather than utility. Yes, you might be able to buy a beer with btc in some European country, or some junk on a couple of sites, but on the whole, most people are buying in to make money.

Once this bubble pops (just look at the recent growth rates), the BTC forums are going to be an entertaining read.



Right, so you are PURELY speculating.  I'm not saying it isn't likely that it will crash, but it doesn't "have" to by any means.  Bitcoins are literally PURE speculation.  Nobody has a fucking clue what's going to happen.  There are no fundamentals.


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202242 - 11/28/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
It actually kinda does "have" to. The problem with bitcoins is that there's no REAL need for them. Sure, they are useful as online currency and to buy illegal things, but its not like they have any use that any commodity does. Toilet paper is for wiping your ass. Q-tips are for cleaning your ears. Bitcoins aren't FOR anything specifically.

This is why lots of economists are saying bitcoin has to drop eventually, and why its so volatile.



Several Chinese companies have started accepting them.  What if the become as accepted (if not more so) than the US dollar?  It absolutely does not "have" to drop.  That is pure speculation.

US dollars aren't FOR anything specifically either - they are for everything.  That is the definition of a currency.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202256 - 11/28/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
It actually kinda does "have" to. The problem with bitcoins is that there's no REAL need for them. Sure, they are useful as online currency and to buy illegal things, but its not like they have any use that any commodity does. Toilet paper is for wiping your ass. Q-tips are for cleaning your ears. Bitcoins aren't FOR anything specifically.

This is why lots of economists are saying bitcoin has to drop eventually, and why its so volatile.



Several Chinese companies have started accepting them.  What if the become as accepted (if not more so) than the US dollar?  It absolutely does not "have" to drop.  That is pure speculation.

US dollars aren't FOR anything specifically either - they are for everything.  That is the definition of a currency.




There's a HUGE difference between online currency and national currency.
Just to give one example, note that when the Bitcoin was worth 800$ in American dollars, it was worth 940$ in yuans converted to American dollars.

Even if it becomes accepted, it's still not a national currency backed by a country's economic and political system.


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Offlinemisterjingo
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202260 - 11/28/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Right, so you are PURELY speculating.




Yep, based upon the near exponential recent rise and the desperation (and lack of knowledge) I see on a lot of BTC forums. Hell, people have been getting in serious debt to buy in which imo is crazy.

But I agree with you that we have no clue where this is going. I used to think the people claiming a 1k btc value were crazy. It's entertaining either way.

I used to mine, but I sold all my equipment 3 months ago when difficulty started going through the roof. Now I'm just watching from the side lines.


Edited by misterjingo (11/28/13 07:28 PM)


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202271 - 11/28/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
Even if it becomes accepted, it's still not a national currency backed by a country's economic and political system.



Which could actually end up being an advantage for BTC, not a disadvantage, at least in certain countries.  Many countries have unreliable governments and economies.  BTC could help stabilize those countries because even if they are still somewhat volatile they may be safer than the fiat currency of that country.

I am somewhat playing devil's advocate, but you are really not considering all the angles.  NOBODY knows what will happen.  Literally only time will tell.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202283 - 11/28/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
Even if it becomes accepted, it's still not a national currency backed by a country's economic and political system.



Which could actually end up being an advantage for BTC, not a disadvantage, at least in certain countries.  Many countries have unreliable governments and economies.  BTC could help stabilize those countries because even if they are still somewhat volatile they may be safer than the fiat currency of that country.

I am somewhat playing devil's advocate, but you are really not considering all the angles.  NOBODY knows what will happen.  Literally only time will tell.





I got a little Devil's Advocate vibe :smile: Its true though, of course I don't know the future, I'm just making educated guesses based on other currencies.

Totally possible BTC blows up. Or crashes.


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202310 - 11/28/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I'm just making educated guesses based on other currencies.

Totally possible BTC blows up. Or crashes.



IMO you cannot accurately gauge BTC based on other currencies.  Bitcoins have no fundamentals and we have never seen anything like them before.  I do worry about their long-term viability since they are not backed by anything but if they do manage to stabilize for a few years there's no reason for people to have less faith in them than a fiat currency if they are literally accepted everywhere around the world.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202317 - 11/28/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I'm just making educated guesses based on other currencies.

Totally possible BTC blows up. Or crashes.



IMO you cannot accurately gauge BTC based on other currencies.  Bitcoins have no fundamentals and we have never seen anything like them before.  I do worry about their long-term viability since they are not backed by anything but if they do manage to stabilize for a few years there's no reason for people to have less faith in them than a fiat currency if they are literally accepted everywhere around the world.




Adding on to your point, its a different ballpark altogether because of the way bitcoins are mined. For currencies, dollars/coins are minted officially, but with this whole mining thing, it seems a bit harder to regulate total amount in the market and fluxuations.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202322 - 11/28/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

invest in suffering


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202327 - 11/28/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I'm just making educated guesses based on other currencies.

Totally possible BTC blows up. Or crashes.



IMO you cannot accurately gauge BTC based on other currencies.  Bitcoins have no fundamentals and we have never seen anything like them before.  I do worry about their long-term viability since they are not backed by anything but if they do manage to stabilize for a few years there's no reason for people to have less faith in them than a fiat currency if they are literally accepted everywhere around the world.




Adding on to your point, its a different ballpark altogether because of the way bitcoins are mined. For currencies, dollars/coins are minted officially, but with this whole mining thing, it seems a bit harder to regulate total amount in the market and fluxuations.



Actually it's the opposite - it's extremely easy to know exactly how many BTC are being mined, at what rate, and how many are in the market.  It is open source code that is available for anyone to see.  It is a completely transparent process which cannot be said about fiat currencies.  You can even see everybody's wallets and who is holding on to a large number of BTC and all the transactions that are occurring globally.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202341 - 11/28/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I'm just making educated guesses based on other currencies.

Totally possible BTC blows up. Or crashes.



IMO you cannot accurately gauge BTC based on other currencies.  Bitcoins have no fundamentals and we have never seen anything like them before.  I do worry about their long-term viability since they are not backed by anything but if they do manage to stabilize for a few years there's no reason for people to have less faith in them than a fiat currency if they are literally accepted everywhere around the world.




Adding on to your point, its a different ballpark altogether because of the way bitcoins are mined. For currencies, dollars/coins are minted officially, but with this whole mining thing, it seems a bit harder to regulate total amount in the market and fluxuations.



Actually it's the opposite - it's extremely easy to know exactly how many BTC are being mined, at what rate, and how many are in the market.  It is open source code that is available for anyone to see.  It is a completely transparent process which cannot be said about fiat currencies.




I wouldn't say extremely easy...you need some sort of tech background. For example, https://blockchain.info/tx/1c12443203a48f42cdf7b1acee5b4b1c1fedc144cb909a3bf5edbffafb0cd204

Can you read that? I sure cant :smile: But that code stands for an 150 million dollar bitcoin transaction. I still stand by my opinion that even though the bitcoin market is open for anyone to see, it can be much more confusing than simply issuing currency at a regular rate.


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OfflineTakeItBreezy
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202343 - 11/28/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't while it's at 1,000$.


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202370 - 11/28/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I wouldn't say extremely easy...you need some sort of tech background. For example, https://blockchain.info/tx/1c12443203a48f42cdf7b1acee5b4b1c1fedc144cb909a3bf5edbffafb0cd204

Can you read that? I sure cant :smile: But that code stands for an 150 million dollar bitcoin transaction. I still stand by my opinion that even though the bitcoin market is open for anyone to see, it can be much more confusing than simply issuing currency at a regular rate.



I couldn't disagree more.  It is open to be confirmed by experts.  Whether or not the average person understands it is pretty irrelevant.  The fact that transactions are completely open and verifiable by experts, humans, and tools, make it far more stable inherently in that regard.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202378 - 11/28/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I wouldn't say extremely easy...you need some sort of tech background. For example, https://blockchain.info/tx/1c12443203a48f42cdf7b1acee5b4b1c1fedc144cb909a3bf5edbffafb0cd204

Can you read that? I sure cant :smile: But that code stands for an 150 million dollar bitcoin transaction. I still stand by my opinion that even though the bitcoin market is open for anyone to see, it can be much more confusing than simply issuing currency at a regular rate.



I couldn't disagree more.  It is open to be confirmed by experts.  Whether or not the average person understands it is pretty irrelevant.  The fact that transactions are completely open and verifiable by experts, humans, and tools, make it far more stable inherently in that regard.




Well we can agree to disagree then. I think it is very important whether the average person understands the market, since I am discussing the general act of investing, which is done by average people...


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202383 - 11/28/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I wouldn't say extremely easy...you need some sort of tech background. For example, https://blockchain.info/tx/1c12443203a48f42cdf7b1acee5b4b1c1fedc144cb909a3bf5edbffafb0cd204

Can you read that? I sure cant :smile: But that code stands for an 150 million dollar bitcoin transaction. I still stand by my opinion that even though the bitcoin market is open for anyone to see, it can be much more confusing than simply issuing currency at a regular rate.



I couldn't disagree more.  It is open to be confirmed by experts.  Whether or not the average person understands it is pretty irrelevant.  The fact that transactions are completely open and verifiable by experts, humans, and tools, make it far more stable inherently in that regard.




Well we can agree to disagree then. I think it is very important whether the average person understands the market, since I am discussing the general act of investing, which is done by average people...



And they are very often advised by experts.  There's no reason that cannot be done for BTC as well.  The average person does not know very much about money beyond the amount that they get on their paycheck and how much of that goes to rent.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202390 - 11/28/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Quote:

KingKnowledge said:
I wouldn't say extremely easy...you need some sort of tech background. For example, https://blockchain.info/tx/1c12443203a48f42cdf7b1acee5b4b1c1fedc144cb909a3bf5edbffafb0cd204

Can you read that? I sure cant :smile: But that code stands for an 150 million dollar bitcoin transaction. I still stand by my opinion that even though the bitcoin market is open for anyone to see, it can be much more confusing than simply issuing currency at a regular rate.



I couldn't disagree more.  It is open to be confirmed by experts.  Whether or not the average person understands it is pretty irrelevant.  The fact that transactions are completely open and verifiable by experts, humans, and tools, make it far more stable inherently in that regard.




Well we can agree to disagree then. I think it is very important whether the average person understands the market, since I am discussing the general act of investing, which is done by average people...



And they are very often advised by experts.  There's no reason that cannot be done for BTC as well.  The average person does not know very much about money beyond the amount that they get on their paycheck and how much of that goes to rent.




If that's your opinion on the average person, maybe I'm talking about slightly-above average people


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19202396 - 11/28/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Someone with moderate intelligence can research BTC just as easily as any other topic.

I do see potential issues with BTC but the one you are raising is not one of them.


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Should I invest in bitcoins? [Re: pwnasaurus]
    #19202423 - 11/28/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pwnasaurus said:
Someone with moderate intelligence can research BTC just as easily as any other topic.






Tell that to an elderly man or woman who isn't as tech-savy as you. This BTC shit looks like Sanskrit to some people who aren't as familiar to computers as we are.

Maybe you see no problem with the points I'm raising because you're a smart person who understands the market and the entire deal with BTC. But this isn't the case with everyone. Some people have expertise in other areas.


Edited by KingKnowledge (11/28/13 08:08 PM)


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