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Offlinemaddad
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Registered: 11/20/13
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Alive but not living?
    #19197279 - 11/27/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ever since I was young, I have had trouble understanding how plants can be alive, yet have no emotion or experience of the world. I have always seen them as a living brain, one big sense organ stuck in one place. And ever since I was introduced to psychedelics that has been reinforced. Especially when I learned how they actually worked in our brains. And the fact that science can come up with no answers as to why plants produce such compounds as psilocybin, or mescaline, or DMT, when it does the plant no benefit. It seems to me that the compounds act much like seratonin does in our brains, they regulate the plants normal everyday consciousness. Does anyone else see any truth to this?


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I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197287 - 11/27/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed... I see everything as living though.. just at different rates..


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad] * 1
    #19197324 - 11/27/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

maddad said:
Ever since I was young, I have had trouble understanding how plants can be alive, yet have no emotion or experience of the world. I have always seen them as a living brain, one big sense organ stuck in one place. And ever since I was introduced to psychedelics that has been reinforced. Especially when I learned how they actually worked in our brains. And the fact that science can come up with no answers as to why plants produce such compounds as psilocybin, or mescaline, or DMT, when it does the plant no benefit. It seems to me that the compounds act much like seratonin does in our brains, they regulate the plants normal everyday consciousness. Does anyone else see any truth to this?



Alive is not the same as sentient. Plants have no sensory organs with which to experience the world around them. They would be useless to plants as well, as they're stationary and just grow towards light if there's room. Animals have senses which help them move away from hurty things and move closer to edible/fuckable things, but those senses would not develop in a being that cannot move or react. I'm not sure how animals like oysters and corals fit into this though.
If plants have consciousness it's so alien compared to animal consciousness, so abstract that we couldn't really compare it.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197332 - 11/27/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That is your opinion. Please do not preach your justifying ideology in such a way.


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus] * 3
    #19197374 - 11/27/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What.


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InvisibleJimmy Sage
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus]
    #19197384 - 11/27/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
That is your opinion. Please do not preach your justifying ideology in such a way.




That is your opinion. Please do not preach your justifying ideology in such a way.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Jimmy Sage]
    #19197385 - 11/27/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Very well.


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OfflineHudson
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus]
    #19197389 - 11/27/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It could be that plants biosynthesize these compounds as a kind of defense mechanism as opposed to the plant producing toxic compounds however this would be disputed by the fact that some animals actively search out plants that they know to have psychoactive effects e.g cats & catnip and jaguars eating plant roots with psychoactive alkaloids thus proving an ineffective defense mechanism. I don't really see how you drew the conclusion that plants are conscious living entities, plants do not have a brain, a central nervous system or any kind of somewhat real time sensory input. And the alkaloids in the plant certainly would not play a role as a neurotransmitter after all plants don't have brains.

3edgy5me


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Hudson]
    #19197394 - 11/27/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You believe one needs a brain to think then?


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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197397 - 11/27/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think that where there is energy/life, there is consciousness.  That's like, my opinion man. :cookiemonster:

Edit: I like your theory about the 'loids being analogous to neurotransmitters.


Edited by 4HO-DMT (11/27/13 05:12 PM)


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: 4HO-DMT] * 1
    #19197398 - 11/27/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Dude, there's like, so much energy in the sun. The sun is a fucking genius.


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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197405 - 11/27/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed there is, indeed there is.  Our ancestors worshiped the sun as a god.


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197408 - 11/27/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KremrBigSikter said:
Quote:

maddad said:
Ever since I was young, I have had trouble understanding how plants can be alive, yet have no emotion or experience of the world. I have always seen them as a living brain, one big sense organ stuck in one place. And ever since I was introduced to psychedelics that has been reinforced. Especially when I learned how they actually worked in our brains. And the fact that science can come up with no answers as to why plants produce such compounds as psilocybin, or mescaline, or DMT, when it does the plant no benefit. It seems to me that the compounds act much like seratonin does in our brains, they regulate the plants normal everyday consciousness. Does anyone else see any truth to this?



Alive is not the same as sentient. Plants have no sensory organs with which to experience the world around them. They would be useless to plants as well, as they're stationary and just grow towards light if there's room. Animals have senses which help them move away from hurty things and move closer to edible/fuckable things, but those senses would not develop in a being that cannot move or react. I'm not sure how animals like oysters and corals fit into this though.
If plants have consciousness it's so alien compared to animal consciousness, so abstract that we couldn't really compare it.



Plants can sense things such as light direction, competition, gravity, etc. they don't need brains to survive unlike animals. All their needs are provided in the environment around them. However, they still have cells which can replicate. Which allows them to grow and reproduce. Thus they are alive.


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: i like cow poo]
    #19197431 - 11/27/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree.


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus] * 1
    #19197452 - 11/27/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
You believe one needs a brain to think then?




Yes. What do you think plants think about? Where to send their roots to for more nutrients? That's absurd. A plant has no need to think. They can survive and adapt as well as they need to by way of the processes controlling their growth.


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OfflineSpace Elf
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197470 - 11/27/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception. I saw a PBS documentary in which this one particular species of vine, called the dodder vine, uses its senses to "smell out" its host plant. It's pretty crazy how plants have evolved the way they did. Why would plants, such as the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant, evolve to eat insects? How the hell did they even know there was such a thing as insects which they could eat and evolve to prey upon? Can they sense the presence of insects? Interesting stuff to ponder. :strokebeard:

Anyway, here's the PBS documentary I was talking about...

What Plants Talk About
http://video.pbs.org/video/2338524490/

Quote:



When we think about plants, we don’t often associate a term like “behavior” with them, but experimental plant ecologist JC Cahill wants to change that. The University of Alberta professor maintains that plants do behave and lead anything but solitary and sedentary lives. “They’re actively engaging with the environment in which they live,” Cahill insists. “They actively communicate. They actively respond to the nutrients, and the predators, and the herbivores that are around them. It’s a really dynamic system.” By exploring the fascinating behaviors of plant life, including the dodder vine, wild tobacco plant, and Douglas fir, What Plants Talk About teaches us all that plants are smarter and much more interactive than we thought! What Plants Talk About premiered Wednesday, April 3 at 8/7c on PBS





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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197481 - 11/27/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

EDIT: wrong thread


Edited by Hobozen (11/27/13 05:42 PM)


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197487 - 11/27/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Space Elf said:
Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception. I saw a PBS documentary in which this one particular species of vine, called the dodder vine, uses its senses to "smell out" its host plant. It's pretty crazy how plants have evolved the way they did. Why would plants, such as the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant, evolve to eat insects? How the hell did they even know there was such a thing as insects which they could eat and evolve to prey upon? Can they sense the presence of insects? Interesting stuff to ponder. :strokebeard:

Anyway, here's the PBS documentary I was talking about...

What Plants Talk About
http://video.pbs.org/video/2338524490/

Quote:



When we think about plants, we don’t often associate a term like “behavior” with them, but experimental plant ecologist JC Cahill wants to change that. The University of Alberta professor maintains that plants do behave and lead anything but solitary and sedentary lives. “They’re actively engaging with the environment in which they live,” Cahill insists. “They actively communicate. They actively respond to the nutrients, and the predators, and the herbivores that are around them. It’s a really dynamic system.” By exploring the fascinating behaviors of plant life, including the dodder vine, wild tobacco plant, and Douglas fir, What Plants Talk About teaches us all that plants are smarter and much more interactive than we thought! What Plants Talk About premiered Wednesday, April 3 at 8/7c on PBS








there is much more to nature than meets the eye.  our eyeballs can only touch the surface.


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197491 - 11/27/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Space Elf said:
Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception. I saw a PBS documentary in which this one particular species of vine, called the dodder vine, uses its senses to "smell out" its host plant. It's pretty crazy how plants have evolved the way they did. Why would plants, such as the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant, evolve to eat insects? How the hell did they even know there was such a thing as insects which they could eat and evolve to prey upon? Can they sense the presence of insects? Interesting stuff to ponder. :strokebeard:

Anyway, here's the PBS documentary I was talking about...

What Plants Talk About
http://video.pbs.org/video/2338524490/

Quote:



When we think about plants, we don’t often associate a term like “behavior” with them, but experimental plant ecologist JC Cahill wants to change that. The University of Alberta professor maintains that plants do behave and lead anything but solitary and sedentary lives. “They’re actively engaging with the environment in which they live,” Cahill insists. “They actively communicate. They actively respond to the nutrients, and the predators, and the herbivores that are around them. It’s a really dynamic system.” By exploring the fascinating behaviors of plant life, including the dodder vine, wild tobacco plant, and Douglas fir, What Plants Talk About teaches us all that plants are smarter and much more interactive than we thought! What Plants Talk About premiered Wednesday, April 3 at 8/7c on PBS









Sure, they can sense things in their environment. They may even be able to sense two things and respond to one with preference. But those responses are not conscious decisions.


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Tickle my bassline.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197508 - 11/27/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you say that with such surety.  say, have you lived the life of a plant?


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