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Offlinemaddad
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Alive but not living?
    #19197279 - 11/27/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ever since I was young, I have had trouble understanding how plants can be alive, yet have no emotion or experience of the world. I have always seen them as a living brain, one big sense organ stuck in one place. And ever since I was introduced to psychedelics that has been reinforced. Especially when I learned how they actually worked in our brains. And the fact that science can come up with no answers as to why plants produce such compounds as psilocybin, or mescaline, or DMT, when it does the plant no benefit. It seems to me that the compounds act much like seratonin does in our brains, they regulate the plants normal everyday consciousness. Does anyone else see any truth to this?


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197287 - 11/27/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed... I see everything as living though.. just at different rates..


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad] * 1
    #19197324 - 11/27/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

maddad said:
Ever since I was young, I have had trouble understanding how plants can be alive, yet have no emotion or experience of the world. I have always seen them as a living brain, one big sense organ stuck in one place. And ever since I was introduced to psychedelics that has been reinforced. Especially when I learned how they actually worked in our brains. And the fact that science can come up with no answers as to why plants produce such compounds as psilocybin, or mescaline, or DMT, when it does the plant no benefit. It seems to me that the compounds act much like seratonin does in our brains, they regulate the plants normal everyday consciousness. Does anyone else see any truth to this?



Alive is not the same as sentient. Plants have no sensory organs with which to experience the world around them. They would be useless to plants as well, as they're stationary and just grow towards light if there's room. Animals have senses which help them move away from hurty things and move closer to edible/fuckable things, but those senses would not develop in a being that cannot move or react. I'm not sure how animals like oysters and corals fit into this though.
If plants have consciousness it's so alien compared to animal consciousness, so abstract that we couldn't really compare it.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197332 - 11/27/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That is your opinion. Please do not preach your justifying ideology in such a way.


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus] * 3
    #19197374 - 11/27/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus]
    #19197384 - 11/27/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
That is your opinion. Please do not preach your justifying ideology in such a way.




That is your opinion. Please do not preach your justifying ideology in such a way.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Jimmy Sage]
    #19197385 - 11/27/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Very well.


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OfflineHudson
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus]
    #19197389 - 11/27/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It could be that plants biosynthesize these compounds as a kind of defense mechanism as opposed to the plant producing toxic compounds however this would be disputed by the fact that some animals actively search out plants that they know to have psychoactive effects e.g cats & catnip and jaguars eating plant roots with psychoactive alkaloids thus proving an ineffective defense mechanism. I don't really see how you drew the conclusion that plants are conscious living entities, plants do not have a brain, a central nervous system or any kind of somewhat real time sensory input. And the alkaloids in the plant certainly would not play a role as a neurotransmitter after all plants don't have brains.

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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Hudson]
    #19197394 - 11/27/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You believe one needs a brain to think then?


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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197397 - 11/27/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think that where there is energy/life, there is consciousness.  That's like, my opinion man. :cookiemonster:

Edit: I like your theory about the 'loids being analogous to neurotransmitters.


Edited by 4HO-DMT (11/27/13 05:12 PM)


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: 4HO-DMT] * 1
    #19197398 - 11/27/13 05:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Dude, there's like, so much energy in the sun. The sun is a fucking genius.


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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197405 - 11/27/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed there is, indeed there is.  Our ancestors worshiped the sun as a god.


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197408 - 11/27/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KremrBigSikter said:
Quote:

maddad said:
Ever since I was young, I have had trouble understanding how plants can be alive, yet have no emotion or experience of the world. I have always seen them as a living brain, one big sense organ stuck in one place. And ever since I was introduced to psychedelics that has been reinforced. Especially when I learned how they actually worked in our brains. And the fact that science can come up with no answers as to why plants produce such compounds as psilocybin, or mescaline, or DMT, when it does the plant no benefit. It seems to me that the compounds act much like seratonin does in our brains, they regulate the plants normal everyday consciousness. Does anyone else see any truth to this?



Alive is not the same as sentient. Plants have no sensory organs with which to experience the world around them. They would be useless to plants as well, as they're stationary and just grow towards light if there's room. Animals have senses which help them move away from hurty things and move closer to edible/fuckable things, but those senses would not develop in a being that cannot move or react. I'm not sure how animals like oysters and corals fit into this though.
If plants have consciousness it's so alien compared to animal consciousness, so abstract that we couldn't really compare it.



Plants can sense things such as light direction, competition, gravity, etc. they don't need brains to survive unlike animals. All their needs are provided in the environment around them. However, they still have cells which can replicate. Which allows them to grow and reproduce. Thus they are alive.


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: i like cow poo]
    #19197431 - 11/27/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree.


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Icyus] * 1
    #19197452 - 11/27/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
You believe one needs a brain to think then?




Yes. What do you think plants think about? Where to send their roots to for more nutrients? That's absurd. A plant has no need to think. They can survive and adapt as well as they need to by way of the processes controlling their growth.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197470 - 11/27/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception. I saw a PBS documentary in which this one particular species of vine, called the dodder vine, uses its senses to "smell out" its host plant. It's pretty crazy how plants have evolved the way they did. Why would plants, such as the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant, evolve to eat insects? How the hell did they even know there was such a thing as insects which they could eat and evolve to prey upon? Can they sense the presence of insects? Interesting stuff to ponder. :strokebeard:

Anyway, here's the PBS documentary I was talking about...

What Plants Talk About
http://video.pbs.org/video/2338524490/

Quote:



When we think about plants, we don’t often associate a term like “behavior” with them, but experimental plant ecologist JC Cahill wants to change that. The University of Alberta professor maintains that plants do behave and lead anything but solitary and sedentary lives. “They’re actively engaging with the environment in which they live,” Cahill insists. “They actively communicate. They actively respond to the nutrients, and the predators, and the herbivores that are around them. It’s a really dynamic system.” By exploring the fascinating behaviors of plant life, including the dodder vine, wild tobacco plant, and Douglas fir, What Plants Talk About teaches us all that plants are smarter and much more interactive than we thought! What Plants Talk About premiered Wednesday, April 3 at 8/7c on PBS





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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197481 - 11/27/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

EDIT: wrong thread


Edited by Hobozen (11/27/13 05:42 PM)


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197487 - 11/27/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Space Elf said:
Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception. I saw a PBS documentary in which this one particular species of vine, called the dodder vine, uses its senses to "smell out" its host plant. It's pretty crazy how plants have evolved the way they did. Why would plants, such as the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant, evolve to eat insects? How the hell did they even know there was such a thing as insects which they could eat and evolve to prey upon? Can they sense the presence of insects? Interesting stuff to ponder. :strokebeard:

Anyway, here's the PBS documentary I was talking about...

What Plants Talk About
http://video.pbs.org/video/2338524490/

Quote:



When we think about plants, we don’t often associate a term like “behavior” with them, but experimental plant ecologist JC Cahill wants to change that. The University of Alberta professor maintains that plants do behave and lead anything but solitary and sedentary lives. “They’re actively engaging with the environment in which they live,” Cahill insists. “They actively communicate. They actively respond to the nutrients, and the predators, and the herbivores that are around them. It’s a really dynamic system.” By exploring the fascinating behaviors of plant life, including the dodder vine, wild tobacco plant, and Douglas fir, What Plants Talk About teaches us all that plants are smarter and much more interactive than we thought! What Plants Talk About premiered Wednesday, April 3 at 8/7c on PBS








there is much more to nature than meets the eye.  our eyeballs can only touch the surface.


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197491 - 11/27/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Space Elf said:
Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception. I saw a PBS documentary in which this one particular species of vine, called the dodder vine, uses its senses to "smell out" its host plant. It's pretty crazy how plants have evolved the way they did. Why would plants, such as the venus fly trap or the pitcher plant, evolve to eat insects? How the hell did they even know there was such a thing as insects which they could eat and evolve to prey upon? Can they sense the presence of insects? Interesting stuff to ponder. :strokebeard:

Anyway, here's the PBS documentary I was talking about...

What Plants Talk About
http://video.pbs.org/video/2338524490/

Quote:



When we think about plants, we don’t often associate a term like “behavior” with them, but experimental plant ecologist JC Cahill wants to change that. The University of Alberta professor maintains that plants do behave and lead anything but solitary and sedentary lives. “They’re actively engaging with the environment in which they live,” Cahill insists. “They actively communicate. They actively respond to the nutrients, and the predators, and the herbivores that are around them. It’s a really dynamic system.” By exploring the fascinating behaviors of plant life, including the dodder vine, wild tobacco plant, and Douglas fir, What Plants Talk About teaches us all that plants are smarter and much more interactive than we thought! What Plants Talk About premiered Wednesday, April 3 at 8/7c on PBS









Sure, they can sense things in their environment. They may even be able to sense two things and respond to one with preference. But those responses are not conscious decisions.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197508 - 11/27/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you say that with such surety.  say, have you lived the life of a plant?


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle] * 1
    #19197514 - 11/27/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well of course plants don't "decide" to evolve that way. They don't "decide" anything, because they can't think (at least not the way we do); they just "perceive" and react accordingly.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Hobozen]
    #19197525 - 11/27/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No. Have you?

I have studied the life of a plant. I can say that plants behavior is governed by specific physical laws, the same laws that govern our behavior. I guess where my argument breaks down is the point where we can no longer describe the plants behavior. And so far as I know, there is no plant behavior which we cannot describe.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Space Elf]
    #19197535 - 11/27/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Space Elf said:
Plants are definitely conscious, living beings, IMO. They also have sensory perception.





Quote:

Space Elf said:
Well of course plants don't "decide" to evolve that way. They don't "decide" anything, because they can't think (at least not the way we do); they just "perceive" and react accordingly.




Which is it? Plants certainly perceive and react. I wouldn't call it perception, but the idea is sound.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197541 - 11/27/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If we can no longer decribe a plants behavior, how can we be sure it lacks consciousness?


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Hobozen]
    #19197552 - 11/27/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
If we can no longer decribe a plants behavior, how can we be sure it lacks consciousness?




At that point you couldn't be sure.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197566 - 11/27/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that I can't be sure.  It seems possible however that consciousness may exist in ways that humans may not be aware of.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Hobozen]
    #19197584 - 11/27/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sure. I happen to think that plants are not conscious because I have seen no evidence suggesting they might be.


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Offlinemaddad
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197601 - 11/27/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alive is not the same as sentient. Plants have no sensory organs with which to experience the world around them. They would be useless to plants as well, as they're stationary and just grow towards light if there's room. Animals have senses which help them move away from hurty things and move closer to edible/fuckable things, but those senses would not develop in a being that cannot move or react. I'm not sure how animals like oysters and corals fit into this though. If plants have consciousness it's so alien compared to animal consciousness, so abstract that we couldn't really compare it.




Sure they have sensory organs, what about leaves and roots? Just because they don't have what you call sensory organs doesn't mean that what they have doesn't serve them a similar purpose. And certain plants do have reactions, for instance Venus fly traps, and some species of cacti can actually shoot their barbs out. And of course its nothing like our consciousness that was some I stated in my original post. Hence why psychedelic states can happen, we are absorbing their consciousness through ingestion. Or the fact that plants have evolved, these are all pretty good signs that plants are conscious. Otherwise how else would they know to grow towards the sun?


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197605 - 11/27/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Think what you will good sir.  I remain indecisive.


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197615 - 11/27/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure we aren't experiencing anything close to plant consciousness when we trip if thats what your implying.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197630 - 11/27/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What about slime mold?

When a slime mold mass or mound is physically separated, the cells find their way back to re-unite. Studies on Physarum have even shown an ability to learn and predict periodic unfavorable conditions in laboratory experiments. Professor John Tyler Bonner, who has spent a lifetime studying slime molds argues that they are "no more than a bag of amoebae encased in a thin slime sheath, yet they manage to have various behaviours that are equal to those of animals who possess muscles and nerves with ganglia – that is, simple brains."


Slime Molds Show Surprising Degree of Intelligence
Quote:

Single-celled slime molds demonstrate the ability to memorize and anticipate repeated events, a team of Japanese researchers reported in January. The study [pdf] clearly shows “a primitive version of brain function” in an organism with no brain at all. [...]

The scientists point out that catching on to temporal patterns is no mean feat, even for humans. For a single cell to show such a learning ability is impressive, though Nakagaki admits he was not entirely surprised by the results. After working with the slime mold for years, he had a hunch that “Physarum could be cleverer than expected.” The findings of what lone cells are capable of “might be a chance to reconsider what intelligence is,” he says.





How brainless slime molds redefine intelligence
Quote:

Compared with most organisms, slime molds have been on the planet for a very long time—they first evolved at least 600 million years ago and perhaps as long as one billion years ago. At the time, no organisms had yet evolved brains or even simple nervous systems. Yet slime molds do not blindly ooze from one place to another—they carefully explore their environments, seeking the most efficient routes between resources. They do not accept whatever circumstances they find themselves in, but rather choose conditions most amenable to their survival. They remember, anticipate and decide. By doing so much with so little, slime molds represent a successful and admirable alternative to convoluted brain-based intelligence. You might say that they break the mold.







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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197633 - 11/27/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

maddad said:
Quote:

Alive is not the same as sentient. Plants have no sensory organs with which to experience the world around them. They would be useless to plants as well, as they're stationary and just grow towards light if there's room. Animals have senses which help them move away from hurty things and move closer to edible/fuckable things, but those senses would not develop in a being that cannot move or react. I'm not sure how animals like oysters and corals fit into this though. If plants have consciousness it's so alien compared to animal consciousness, so abstract that we couldn't really compare it.




Sure they have sensory organs, what about leaves and roots? Just because they don't have what you call sensory organs doesn't mean that what they have doesn't serve them a similar purpose. And certain plants do have reactions, for instance Venus fly traps, and some species of cacti can actually shoot their barbs out. And of course its nothing like our consciousness that was some I stated in my original post. Hence why psychedelic states can happen, we are absorbing their consciousness through ingestion. Or the fact that plants have evolved, these are all pretty good signs that plants are conscious. Otherwise how else would they know to grow towards the sun?




Plants sense things in the way that cells sense things. They do respond to stimulus, but to say they do so consciously is a bit presumptuous. You ask how they know to grow towards the sun, and I'd say they don't know anything. They simply respond as their genes have programmed them. It would probably be closer to the truth to call the response a reflex. As far as evolution being a sign of consciousness, that's just wrong. Viruses and bacteria evolve. Evolution is a function of the gene and the gene certainly is not conscious.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197636 - 11/27/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hence why psychedelic states can happen, we are absorbing their consciousness through ingestion.



Maybe if we inject some human neurotransmitters into a plant, they would have a very human, everyday Joe trip.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19197640 - 11/27/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's really cool and not something I've heard of. There's some kind of intelligence there. I don't know if I'd say they're conscious.

Would you say that a computer program is conscious? Intelligent?


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19197771 - 11/27/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fiddle said:
Would you say that a computer program is conscious?



To be honest, I don't believe that the scientific community has even reached a consensus on how to define consciousness, let alone how such a thing arises from the physical human body. Until we can understand how biological systems give rise to consciousness, we aren't really in a position to pass judgement on whether non-biological systems can be conscious as well.

If I had to take a guess though, I believe it is possible for a computer program to be conscious. The physical process a computer goes through mirrors that of a brain, so it only makes sense to believe that a similar process would present a similar quality.

Keep in mind, it was not very long ago that scientific establishment was of the opinion that consciousness was something that separated humans from animals--that no animal species other than humans were conscious--this is no longer accepted fact, though the debate is still undecided--but many now believe that consciousness works on a sliding scale through the animal kingdom, reaching a zenith in humans, with some animal species presenting a consciousness comparable to that of a human infant (african grey parrot, octopus, dogs, etc).

Being aware of this, I think it is premature to pass judgment on what can or cannot be conscious--be it animal, plant, mineral--heck, one day consciousness may be understood to exist as a property of matter/energy.

Or, perhaps Thomas Nagel is right, and consciousness is unique to the organism experiencing the consciousness--unable to be satisfactorily explained by our current concept of physics--a priori knowledge is required.

"An organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism—something it is like for the organism."


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19197787 - 11/27/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Keep in mind, it was not very long ago that scientific establishment was of the opinion that consciousness was something that separated humans from animals--that no animal species other than humans were conscious



This sounds very strange and I'd like to know more about it. It sounds more like some abrahamic idea than a scientific one.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19197816 - 11/27/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you on pretty much everything you've said. The definition of consciousness I was basing my arguments on is that consciousness includes awareness of the self/surroundings. As far as defining consciousness goes, I'd have to side with those who say it must be described a priori, as you've said. We really don't have the framework to talk about consciousness in a way that's relatable and consistent. I think that with the progress we've made in artificial intelligence and neuroscience we may be on the verge of being able to describe conscious systems, but until then, you're right, consciousness and what defines it will be as personal as life and its definition.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19197874 - 11/27/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It was definitely rooted in Christian concepts, but then most scientific research before the enlightenment was rooted in Christian concepts. Descartes was an original proponent of the theory, and we know where he stood when it came to the big guy above.

But later on, the idea that animals were not conscious (and therefore did not experience pain) was held on to more as a way to rationalize animal experimentation as ethical, rather than from a Christian sense of mans superiority. It was even into the late 1980's that researchers were vastly undecided on whether animals could experience pain, and often taught to ignore animal pain.

Today though, consensus essentially exists that animals, at least vertebrates, do experience pain and have a sense of conscious--though the debate on invertebrates is still unclear.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19197968 - 11/27/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Viruses and bacteria evolve. Evolution is a function of the gene and the gene certainly is not conscious.




Of course this is where all life came from, and consciousness cannot arise from no consciousness. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Maybe then consciousness is written in the genes, but it didn't just happen that one day something was the first conscious thing on this planet or in the universe.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19197978 - 11/27/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

maddad said:
It didn't just come out of nowhere.




You don't know that. But then again, neither do I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19198028 - 11/27/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fiddle said:
Quote:

maddad said:
It didn't just come out of nowhere.




You don't know that. But then again, neither do I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence




If you want to base your opinion on that then I would say that we aren't conscious either. Just chemicals reacting to other chemicals, nothing more. But then again how can we prove we aren't?


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19198039 - 11/27/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm playing a mental game of deduction, so bear with me.  Is it true that: where there is mass, there is energy, and where there is energy, mass can be found?  These are accepted as truths under the principals of conservation of mass and energy.  In a similar fashion, where there is motion (momentum), mass and energy also reside. This falls under the principal of conservation of momentum. There are other conservation principals as well.

So..., here is where I start to philos: Is it true that: where life is found, energy and mass are also found? Is the converse true: where energy and mass are found, is there also life? And furthermore, is consciousness correlated with life?

I don't claim to know the answer to these questions, but I like to ponder them.  I'm working out a physical model that involves conservation of life, and conservation of consciousness.  It is slow working though as I wouldn't know the first place to look for funding for this type of theory.

I'm not saying that anybody is wrong in this thread, just putting my ideas out there. Interpret as you will.


Edited by 4HO-DMT (11/27/13 07:50 PM)


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #19198068 - 11/27/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The hard part is defining these terms. People have been debating definitions of life and consciousness for hundreds of years and have come no closer to a definition that is accurate and widely applicable. Basically, what it comes down to is whether or not there is some system by which life and consciousness can be accurately broken down and described. If such a system exists it may be used to enhance existing definitions of life so as to make them more accurate. If such a system does not exist then defining life and consciousness will essentially be a personal affair. That is, your definition will be no more correct than my own, as it is specific to you, just as my own would be specific to me.

Fun stuff to think about, nevertheless.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19198114 - 11/27/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed it is, thank you all for participating!


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: fiddle]
    #19198167 - 11/27/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That is a good point. It is hard to pin down a definition that is widely accepted, especially with consciousness. At least with life, it is easy to deduce that it has a starting point and an end point in time.  What happens before or after those points in time is debatable.  But, in the sense that all mammals slide into the world at one time and zip back out at a later time, life is finite in time.  What happens at these two points is the bazillion dollar question, right? 

I think that, for these two variables to be consistent with other observable physical quantities, they must be conserved.  Thus, life must transfer to another form at birth and death for conservation.  For instance, when life leaves a body, the temperature of the body cools to the temperature of the environment. This is a transfer of energy in the form of heat, and this energy is conserved.  So, if we think about life as some form of energy, then it fits into the conservation of energy principal. 

Quote:

fiddle said:
Fun stuff to think about, nevertheless.




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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #19198198 - 11/27/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

haha, surprise surprise, another conversation on the nature of consciousness has ended in "but I guess we don't really know either way"


Quote:

Fun stuff to think about, nevertheless.




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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19198252 - 11/27/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
To be honest, I don't believe that the scientific community has even reached a consensus on how to define consciousness, let alone how such a thing arises from the physical human body. Until we can understand how biological systems give rise to consciousness, we aren't really in a position to pass judgement on whether non-biological systems can be conscious as well.





This statement is so true and provides a barrier to knowledge about spirituality.  But, humans are inquisitive and most will think about it for most of their lives.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #19198470 - 11/27/13 09:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

physicist said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
To be honest, I don't believe that the scientific community has even reached a consensus on how to define consciousness, let alone how such a thing arises from the physical human body. Until we can understand how biological systems give rise to consciousness, we aren't really in a position to pass judgement on whether non-biological systems can be conscious as well.





This statement is so true and provides a barrier to knowledge about spirituality.  But, humans are inquisitive and most will think about it for most of their lives.




I think the first step would be to adequately differentiate consciousness from intelligence. Because the two are fundamentally different. Let us for a moment bring robots or A.I. into the picture. Could robots ever be conscious? And I think if you answer yes to that question then the answer to the original question has to be yes as well. Intellegence, seems to be a disembodied source of knowledge. An ambiguous sort of understanding, if you will. Because computers are not conscious, but they have intelligence. Yet computers can process and adapt infinitely faster than we. And could one day indeed be very conscious. It seems that plants have this sort of intelligence as well, albeit of a fundamentally different order. One cannot deny the intelligence in DNA.

Fruit was evolved by plants to be eaten by animals. So that the seeds would be carried somewhere else and then fertilized and grow. Because at the end of the day life is about surviving and multiplying right? So it takes a certain amount of conscious action somewhere in there for that to happen. Because if you mean to tell me that this universe, our world and everything on it is just a bunch of random happenings that all worked out just right to get us to this point, then I don't think there is anything you couldn't believe. It seems to me that intelligence would have to be the building block, so to speak, for consciousness. But then at what point do you make that distinction?


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19198551 - 11/27/13 10:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fruit was evolved by plants to be eaten by animals.




Fruit was evolved by animals to be produced by plants. I think that's a more accurate semantic as it pertains to causality.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Viveka]
    #19198632 - 11/27/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Viveka said:
Quote:

Fruit was evolved by plants to be eaten by animals.




Fruit was evolved by animals to be produced by plants. I think that's a more accurate semantic as it pertains to causality.



Or even better,
plants that experienced a random mutation(s) which allowed them to grow seed bearing fruit were more successful at reproducing than similar plants that did not produce fruit, due to animals eating the fruit and spreading the seed.

As I understand it, evolution is not a conscious process, and neither plant nor animal can be said to have 'evolved' fruit.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19198692 - 11/27/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well that was the point of my semantic reversal. To emphasize that it is not organisms that are actively doing something in the evolutionary process. Rather the interaction of elements in the environment over time leads to a certain fruition...

Also, in the case of humans, it can be said that the animal 'evolved' fruit. So it is a conscious process at certain stages.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Viveka]
    #19198798 - 11/27/13 11:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Viveka said:
Also, in the case of humans, it can be said that the animal 'evolved' fruit. So it is a conscious process at certain stages.



I see what you are getting at.

I should have used the term 'natural selection', rather than 'evolution' when referring to it not being a conscious process.

You are speaking of artificial selection, which I agree, involves a process of conscious selection, but remains a mechanism of evolution.

I still feel it would be wrong to say that humans 'evolved' fruit though. The initial mechanism would be mutation, a random process, followed by a period of natural selection (most likely), before artificial selection on the part of humans would begin.

We don't cause the fruit to evolve--we merely select for pre-existing beneficial traits and increase their chance of being passed down to future generations--which, although it can be said to effect the evolutionary process, is not the entire evolutionary process in itself.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19198811 - 11/27/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps in the case of genetic manipulation, humans can be said to directly and consciously cause something to evolve--thus the 'playing god' tag.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: Viveka]
    #19198826 - 11/27/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't care for natural selection, genetic mutation is too sloppy of an idea for me to actually consider serious. Because mutations usually arise from the diet animals consume. It seems to me that certain plants and animals evolve symbiotically. Which would mean there would have to be a consciousness bridged between them. Each benefits from the relationship, and they depend on each other. This is the case for many plant-insect relationships, bees specifically. Plant mutations happen far less often than animal mutations, simply because of the diet factor. Which makes it hard for me to believe that there is no conscious act in there somewhere on the plants part.


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Re: Alive but not living? [Re: maddad]
    #19199234 - 11/28/13 03:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, beneficial, random mutation does seem a bit far fetched, even in the face of unfathomably long periods of time.

Consider Lamarck who before Darwin posited that traits acquired within a single generation could be passed to offspring. He was thoroughly condemned for it once Darwin and the ideas that sill hold today were embraced.

The fact is that Lamarck was actually technically correct, even within the context of the natural selection dogma. There is extrachromosonal genetic material that can affect the organism's inheritable gene expression, viRNA being the cleanest example. (See roundworms and single-generation inherited immunity for one example. Here is another example.)

The natural selection dogma doesn't really cut it. Consider what we're understanding about cell membrane biology and the way environmental information affects receptor and effector sites to change the function of the cell. So we're still trying to figure out even the fundamentals. We shouldn't take any of the dogma too literally.


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