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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #19192135 - 11/26/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Scientists have been levitating objects with sound for a while now.



That's not "paranormal."

That's a physical phenomenon that can be replicated and explained without the need for hocus-pocus pseudo-spiritual bullshit.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19192202 - 11/26/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

actually it is pretty 'parahormal' because outside of my studio objects don't levitate from sound alone... screaming bitches yes, but not sounds alone....

before real parahormal experiences all radio stations tune in all for a sudden and it's like Savanna is screaming in orgasm on fm radio


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty] * 1
    #19193595 - 11/26/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.



I hear ya.  But please answer this, Kickle:

Does it sound right to you -- "smell" right to you -- that in the year 2013 -- when humankind possesses the science necessary to send rovers to the planet Mars and to probe the most intricate mysteries of the human brain -- that not one purported "supernatural" or "miraculous" event has yet to be proven empirically and scientifically? 

Not one?

I keep returning to the Transcendental Meditation "levitation" thing, because I think it illustrates the point well.

All it will take to end this debate now and forever -- and to send skeptics like me slithering away with their tails between their legs -- is for one TM'er -- just one -- to submit to scientific testing of the alleged levitation ability in an agenda-free, impartial and highly regarded and respected scientific laboratory, and to prove his case.

You will agree, I trust, that in the year 2013, humankind possesses the equipment necessary to measure and record an act of levitation, yes?

One scientifically proven act of levitation and this entire debate is 100 percent over and done.

Finished.

For all time and with regard to all manner of alleged paranormal abilities and feats.




While some claims certainly would fall into the purview of science the majority of what I personally have experienced and store in my unsolved mysteries file do not. And one has to keep in mind that the scientific method is not solely observation. A doctor may witness a recovery that he cannot explain with his current knowledge, for example, but this doesn't mean much to any sensible person. The scientific method has to have some ground to stand on. Some guess as to the mechanism(s) at work before any sort of experiment can be designed.

In most cases involving an unexplained phenomena that means guessing its a hoax and testing for the ways it could be hoaxed. And that's what comes out. Because its the only way to get at potential unknowns. The unexplained cases remain unexplained and will not convince any skeptical individual of much. but IMO its silly to default to hoax when it is genuinely unexplained. I see that all the time however. And if one is compelled to guess, why not? But I consider it wiser and healthier not to make up a story when it isn't there.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19193596 - 11/26/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Once science has proven something, it is no longer paranormal. Electricity used to be paranormal, so was gravity and things like radio waves, etc.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: nicechrisman] * 1
    #19194151 - 11/26/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah that is exactly it. What science can or cannot prove cannot always used as a criteria to define what is real. This is because scientific method is limited to proper instrumentation and the limits of human conception. It would be ignorant to assume that the whole of nature is not much bigger than what we can perceived with our own senses and the extension of those senses of which are our technologies.

You know before the microscope we could be having this conversation about the existence of germs and one living at that time could claim that a person must be insane to believe in "germs" which have no scientific hard evidence or "proof" and cannot be proven in a laboratory.

How is that any different from someone today claiming a phenomenon does not exist simply because it cannot be known scientifically?

You really think our science of today has pierced through all the secrets of matter and the material world? You know there is really nothing scientific about ignoring ones own ignorance. Instead of making assumptions about how reality functions and making firm decisions about what is possible and what is impossible one should cautiously observed what is actually taking place in the life. IMO it is unscientific to ignore any phenomenon which is claimed to be experienced by masses of people since it is ignoring empirical evidence.

The way I see it our science cannot control the happenings of reality for the cause of all phenomenon is still yet far beyond us.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #19195272 - 11/27/13 07:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive
They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time
You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions

You may not be able to change lifelong habits
The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others

Just my 2 cents




How do you know that?
:ohyou:
Do you feel "enlightened", sir?

Or

is it that these conditions, after years of trying, allow you to feel like you are even though you don't really feel any different?

:hahyeahwoo:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19195278 - 11/27/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19195966 - 11/27/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Once science has proven something, it is no longer paranormal. Electricity used to be paranormal, so was gravity and things like radio waves, etc.



Exactly.

So all I'm asking is for ONE "paranormal" event to be conclusively established by a group of individuals who have not surrendered their innate powers of intellect and discernment (i.e., scientists). 

ONE scientifically confirmed event, and this debate will be over and finished forever.

Scientifically confirm ONE case of levitation.  Or ONE case of a "ghost" sighting.  Or ONE case of ESP.  Etc. etc.

Oh my fuckin' god...  is this asking for too fuckin' much:ooo:


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OfflineSse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19196060 - 11/27/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

illusory practice
illusory way
illusory enlightenment
illusory beings
illusory suffering

"Let go. Let be. See through everything and be free."

"breath by breath, let go of fear, expectation, anger, regret, craving, frustration, fatigue. Let go of the need for approval. Let go of old judgments and opinions. Die to all of that, and fly free. Soar in the freedom of desirelessness."

"breath by breath, forgive others. Forgive those from the past-those with whom you no longer have contact, as well as those who are still around you. Forgive yourself. Accept others for what they are. Accept yourself totally. Let go and let be."

"Get used to evolving, transforming, passing on without resistance, without clinging and attachment. Breath by breath, let go. Let all this illusory, dreamlike phenomena pass by."

"Let go of any attempts to control the mind. With each exhalation, let it go. Push the clutch of spiritual detachment and disengage your habitual gears. With each exhalation, let go of one more thing-whatever comes to mind; a sensation, an emotion, a feeling, a relationship, a person, a fear, a possession. Breath by breath, fleeting moment by fleeting moment-simply let go."

"everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn and undying natural mind."

"let everything proceed effortlessly, transparently. Let go of control, manipulation, and judgment."

Awakening the Buddha Within
by Lama Surya Das


Edited by Sse (11/27/13 11:45 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
    #19196130 - 11/27/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
"Let go. Let be. See through everything and be free."



Buddhists speak long and eloquently of the beauty and power of the ability to discern. 

Do not surrender your innate powers of discernment.


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OfflineSse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19196190 - 11/27/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. I think letting go is an act of discernment as well

"Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality;
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words;
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgmental mind."

Four Reliances - Tibetan book of the dead

"The Fourth Reliance is that we should rely on the insight of looking deeply rather than on differentiation and discrimination."

"we can rely on discriminative as well as nondiscriminative wisdom"

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching
by thich nhat hanh


Edited by Sse (11/27/13 12:21 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
    #19196390 - 11/27/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
I agree. I think letting go is an act of discernment as well



I think we must never let go of the search for veracity.

We can quibble over whether this "search" is itself a form of attachment, but the search is essential for our survival and must not be surrendered.

You cannot exist as a living, breathing organism without challenging false assumptions.  You cannot, for example, eat a poisonous mushroom handed to you on the basis that your concern for things poisonous and things not poisonous is, itself, a form of attachment.

Believers in the supernatural and paranormal are handing us, if you will, poisonous mushrooms.

We must not be silent and we must not surrender our innate powers of discernment.


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OfflineSse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19196422 - 11/27/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup: Good points, completely agree

for a while now I've been viewing the saying "cling to nothing" literally. Definitely attached to nothing :hehehe:

im with ya, wise discernment is bread and butter.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
    #19196616 - 11/27/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"You cannot, for example, eat a poisonous mushroom handed to you on the basis that your concern for things poisonous and things not poisonous is, itself, a form of attachment."


That example imo is a part of seeing the reality of things. Uncolored by personal feelings/opinions it is still poisonous, anything extra added to the appearance would be unnecessary delusion(human creation)-clinging to fear, worry, anxiety etc.

Seeing things as they are/discernment doesn't have to involve straying from one-pointedness. Attachment can remain on nothingness(uncreated/unelaborated/appearance/as is) while facing circumstance by circumstance with wisdom/equanimity.


Edited by Sse (11/27/13 01:54 PM)


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
    #19196628 - 11/27/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Reaching enlightenment still makes you complain? I doubt this definition of enlightenment.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineSse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icyus]
    #19196657 - 11/27/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

only if you want to :p


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icyus]
    #19196779 - 11/27/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Reaching enlightenment still makes you complain? I doubt this definition of enlightenment.



Oh, absolutely "the enlightened" complain.  It's not by any means a radical understanding of "enlightenment."

Great sages throughout the ages -- those most agree would meet the definition of "enlightened" -- were great complainers. 

"Complaining" is one way human beings make change happen.

Without change, there is stagnancy.  And with stagnancy, there is no new life.

"Enlightened complaining" is good.  :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19196836 - 11/27/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

sounds like enlightenment is a bunch of nonsense. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #19196921 - 11/27/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
sounds like enlightenment is a bunch of nonsense. :laugh:



Only if we understand it as an elitist and "special" state of being.

There are several people in my personal universe whom I consider "enlightened," and know what? -- they never, ever use the word "enlightenment."  In fact, they never even talk about the shit we talk about in this forum.

There are very aware and very mindful people all around us.


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InvisibleLibertin
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19197036 - 11/27/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
sounds like enlightenment is a bunch of nonsense. :laugh:



Only if we understand it as an elitist and "special" state of being.

There are several people in my personal universe whom I consider "enlightened," and know what? -- they never, ever use the word "enlightenment."  In fact, they never even talk about the shit we talk about in this forum.

There are very aware and very mindful people all around us.




Hmm... enlightenment seems like a slippery concept. How do you recognise it? Am I enlightened? How would I know? I guess I'm not because if I was then I would 'just know'.  :rolleyes:


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