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Offlinenicechrisman
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Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation?
    #19195398 - 11/27/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm only stating my humble opinion and observations here but I feel like many users here are putting the cart before the horse and trying to find spiritual enlightenment from drugs without wanting to do the work needed to actually get where they are really trying to go.

I know because I've been there. Since I have incorporated meditation as a regular practice in my life, I have found that the quality of my psychedelic sessions had increased exponentially, while the frequency of them has reduced quite a lot.

Do you think psychedelics can actually be a shortcut to enlightenment, or do you think there is still work to be done. You gotta eat your vegetables IMO.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


Edited by nicechrisman (11/27/13 08:36 AM)


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19195435 - 11/27/13 08:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think both. I think it takes you there for a couple hours, but no good is going to come out of it if you don't practice applying those skills on a daily basis. I've had a number of profound experiences that i would classify as life altering, but i will admit i have not been keeping any routine like i should. I still get something out of the experiences, but not quite as much as i feel i could


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #19195443 - 11/27/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think they can be useful because they can free us from our rigid physical mindset and show us that there are other possibilities out there, and different states of mind. Without psychedelics, I may have never begun my meditation practice. But with drugs, you can't stay there. You always get ripped back into mundane reality. Meditation has no comedown and stays with me all day. And I can think clearly.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleMindDrips
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19195449 - 11/27/13 08:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I would honestly agree with you. I recently realized that my trips are 100x better when I meditate, do Tai Chi, and make a conscious effort to go as inward as possible.
IMO, as much as I think psychedelics can flood us with information and show us what we need to learn, they should not be a shortcut to enlightenment. They can definitely be a huge push in the direction of inner peace and understanding, but I believe it is more of a jump-start than a whole new battery.
Shit, did I just make a vehicle metaphor...?

Psychedelics can reveal to us the lines in the coloring book; We must take the steps to color in the spaces, otherwise the picture will not be complete.

Also chrisman, I agree wholeheartedly. No drug can compare to meditation and natural altered states of consciousness.


--------------------
"Pebbles and marbles like things on my mind,
Seem to get lost and harder to find.
When I am alone I am inclined,
If I find a pebble in sand,
To think that it fell from my hand..."



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Offlinemaddad
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19195496 - 11/27/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There are no shortcuts to enlightenment, at least when you try to use them that way. It is not something that you can force upon yourself. It's something you have to let take you over. I have heard of people becoming "enlightened" after being struck by lightening and or other NDEs. Although psychedelics have a being struck by lightening effect on your consciousness, by themselveses they aren't going to turn you into Buddha. The can certainly open the doors to the idea that these states are possible. I agree that meditation is very helpful for integrating these experiences, it gives you time to get some calm clarity goin on. Whenever I trip alone after the peak of the experience I always meditate until I feel completely normal again.

Before I took psychedelis, I had a very nihilistic view of reality. They definitely introduced me to the idea of something else beyond. Enlightenment it all about seeing through illusions, psychedelics are an illusion, just as our normal consciousness is. It's all about the information and experiences you can extract.


--------------------
I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna


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OfflineJesus Cristo
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: MindDrips]
    #19195514 - 11/27/13 09:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

For most people psychedelics make it easier. it's almost like the necessary first step imo since it cuts all the bullshit fast. you don't have to go endlessly trying to reach enlightenment through incredibely hard or fake means when you can take a psychedelic and it'll almost show you the right path if done right. imo


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman] * 3
    #19195518 - 11/27/13 09:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
I'm only stating my humble opinion and observations here but I feel like many users here are putting the cart before the horse and trying to find spiritual enlightenment from drugs without wanting to do the work needed to actually get where they are really trying to go.

I know because I've been there. Since I have incorporated meditation as a regular practice in my life, I have found that the quality of my psychedelic sessions had increased exponentially, while the frequency of them has reduced quite a lot.

Do you think psychedelics can actually be a shortcut to enlightenment, or do you think there is still work to be done. You gotta eat your vegetables IMO.




I think meditation and psychedelics can be complimentary to each-other but one is not a replacement for the other.
That being said, spiritual practices like yoga and meditation can be enhanced by psychedelics but by no means is it necessary to the successful completion of these activities. I sort of view psychedelics on a path to self realization as little mountaintops on which we can observe a few interesting angles of the practice we are engaged in. It can be helpful to shake you out of certain self-destructive tendencies and patterns when placing the introspective mirror on yourself so dramatically. At the end of the day though just like any state they pass into something else so they are another "bardo" unto themselves. It is good to observe passively and not be swept away by the illusions/delusions inherent to such phenomena.

Most eastern self-realization teachings involve slow methodical practices that take much effort and dedication. Most of us westerners, in our quick-fix modern society want instant gratification. Just taking a drug involves little effort and isn't really a short-cut to anything just another state of consciousness that comes and goes like a dream. There is an opportunity however in this state and many others for self-realization in recognizing the nature of dualistic phenomena as products of the mind. We can utilize psychedelic experiences as opportunities for self-realization just as much as any other experience we go through.


--------------------


Edited by ShroomDoom (11/27/13 09:19 AM)


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InvisibleMindDrips
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #19195528 - 11/27/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

maddad said:
There are no shortcuts to enlightenment, at least when you try to use them that way. It is not something that you can force upon yourself.

...They definitely introduced me to the idea of something else beyond. Enlightenment it all about seeing through illusions, psychedelics are an illusion, just as our normal consciousness is. It's all about the information and experiences you can extract.



Quote:

Jesus Cristo said:
For most people psychedelics make it easier. it's almost like the necessary first step imo since it cuts all the bullshit fast.




Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
I think meditation and psychedelics can be complimentary to each-other but one is not a replacement for the other.



:asianofapproval:


--------------------
"Pebbles and marbles like things on my mind,
Seem to get lost and harder to find.
When I am alone I am inclined,
If I find a pebble in sand,
To think that it fell from my hand..."



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OfflineOliveaux
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: MindDrips]
    #19196169 - 11/27/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i think it has a lot to do with the attitude of the person in the first place, and while there's no doubt that meditation will enhance all areas of ones life including the psychedelic experience, some folks just aren't inclined that way. To me its more like . . . the only way i can think to describe it is, its like dropping a seed on the ground. If the seed falls on fertile ground, it can sprout. If not, it will just die. The fertile ground is the mind of the tripper! Most of us reach a point or points in our life where we are on the precipice of something more, and psychedelics can help us take that leap. If we're not there mentally well, it's not going to have that effect.


--------------------
“To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never to forget.”


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OfflineJesus Cristo
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: Oliveaux]
    #19196260 - 11/27/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it's kind of like how people like to play sports and fuck around with friends and maybe even go hard too, but then there's other people that go to the gym everyday, practice for hours on end and then go hard come game time with what they've learned


Edited by Jesus Cristo (11/27/13 12:32 PM)


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OfflineKingKnowledge
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: Jesus Cristo]
    #19196283 - 11/27/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lovely thread, and I agree 100%. Low frequency dosing is the key, combined with daily spiritual practice not involving drugs (other than maybe some pot)


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Offlines240779
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19196321 - 11/27/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

According to Jack Kornfield, it's possible, but not probable:

--
RF: LSD may he one of the most important causes for the importation of Eastern spiritual practices into this country during the 1960s. Because of LSD, as you are saying, young people sought out those maps and practices that could enable them to understand their experiences.

JK: They certainly were powerful for me. I took LSD and other psychedelics at Dartmouth though I was studying Eastern thought even before then, but they came hand in hand as they did for many people. It is true for the majority of American Buddhist teachers that they had experience with psychedelics either right after they started their spiritual practice or prior to it.

I even know of cases where people were genuinely transformed by their experience in the way that one would be from an enlightenment experience. They are rare. Of the many hundreds of people I know who took psychedelics I know of a few cases where people had radically transformative experiences. These were as much as an “enlightenment” as any other kind of “initial enlightenment,” using the terminology of a system that has a few major satoris and then finally full enlightenment. This is something you are welcome to print. However, along with it print that I am reluctant to say it because it may be misleading. It is like winning the lottery. There are not a lot of people that win. A lot of people play, and not so many people win. But the potential is there. I am not sure if it is helpful for people to hear that.


Entheogens and the Future of Religion by Robert Forte
Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice: An Interview with Jack Kornfield.


Relevant comment from Myron J. Stolaroff:


--
Myron J. Stolaroff, active in psychedelic research since 1960, is one of these Buddhist practitioners. "For myself," he writes in Gnosis in 1993, "I found training in Tibetan Buddhist meditation a potent adjunct to psychedelic exploration. In learning to hold my mind empty, I became aware that other levels of reality would more readily manifest. It was only in absolute stillness . . . that many subtle but extremely valuable nuances of reality appeared. While I achieved this to some extent in ordinary practice, I found this effect to be greatly amplified while under the influence of a psychedelic substance. This in turn intensified my daily practice."
--

Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics. Alan Hunt Badiner (editor)
A High History of Buddhism in America by Rick Fields


One Acharya Rajneesh flat out says not to take LSD again! : :tomatoface:


--
...So do not mistake it for samadhi and do not cling to such experiences, otherwise they will be obstructions in meditation. You have felt so much in LSD dreams that, when you go in real meditation it is faint. It is not so vital that the feeling is not of such a great upsurge. Compared to your dream experiences meditation will look faint. This will create a depressive mood. You will feel something is being lost. You have known something and this something is not coming through meditation. Then the mind will say, “LSD is better”. And if you go on taking LSD your mind will become less and less meditative. And meditation and its experiences will go on becoming fainter and fainter. So don't take LSD again.
--

LSD: A Shortcut to False Samadhi. Acharya Rajneesh.


Full versions of the above literature and more can be found here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18430408


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OfflineDough
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: s240779]
    #19197034 - 11/27/13 03:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Psychedelics are like helping starter blocks, they can get the ball rolling naw mean, they'll make you a hell of a lot different and then you cant just trip the rest of the parts you have to actually bring yourself to where you want to go, thats the personally gratifying and developing part
i've also started eating my vegetables and enjoying them more recently, im really young too so better later than never, i just wished i ate healthy growing up, makes me think i could have been something else physically.


--------------------
Trippy Kit




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Offlines240779
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: Dough]
    #19197718 - 11/27/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dough said:
i've also started eating my vegetables and enjoying them more recently, im really young too so better later than never, i just wished i ate healthy growing up, makes me think i could have been something else physically.




That was a figure of speech, which is pretty obvious.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: s240779]
    #19199564 - 11/28/13 06:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

But I guess it is good to eat them both figuratively and literally.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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OfflineJesus Cristo
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19199583 - 11/28/13 07:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
But I guess it is good to eat them both figuratively and literally.



:manofapproval:


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: Jesus Cristo]
    #19206386 - 11/29/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

bump


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleMindDrips
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Re: Seeking spiritual enlightenment from psychedelics without meditation? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19206658 - 11/29/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Wonderful thread
:mindexpanding:


--------------------
"Pebbles and marbles like things on my mind,
Seem to get lost and harder to find.
When I am alone I am inclined,
If I find a pebble in sand,
To think that it fell from my hand..."



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