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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Buddhism and opiates
    #19191412 - 11/26/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

When I do opiates, I completely stop clinging to my desires and materialistic possessions. It's honestly one of the most liberating feelings imaginable. Everything feels so empty in the most pleasant way imaginable. I even stop clinging to other people's opinions of me, it just DOESN'T MATTER in the slightest. It's breathtaking. 

I just feel like the mindset opiates put me in is very buddhist like. Nothing can phase me, nothing can anger me, nothing can annoy me. Disappointment and jealousy are replaced with a blissful void. Every grudge I've ever held on, every wrong that somebody has done to me, and every shred of guilt I've built up over the years just disintegrates beautifully. 

Has anyone learnt any valuable life lessons with opiates? I feel like drug users generally believe that psychedelics are the only category of drugs that hold value and provide a method of enlightenment but opiates have definitely changed my world view. They've made me far more relaxed, mellow, and chill. It's not a bad thing per say, I'm loving it. :smile:


Edited by Alexestalex (11/26/13 11:04 AM)


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Invisiblegzuf
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Alexestalex] * 9
    #19191418 - 11/26/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alexestalex said:
When I do opiates, I completely stop clinging to my desires and materialistic possessions..................., and start clinging to opiates instead.




You sure this isn't happening instead?


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Invisiblepwnasaurus
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: gzuf]
    #19191423 - 11/26/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

Alexestalex said:
When I do opiates, I completely stop clinging to my desires and materialistic possessions..................., and start clinging to opiates instead.




You sure this isn't happening instead?



:lol:


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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: gzuf]
    #19191427 - 11/26/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

Alexestalex said:
When I do opiates, I completely stop clinging to my desires and materialistic possessions..................., and start clinging to opiates instead.




You sure this isn't happening instead?




I've been doing opiates for 3 years in complete moderation. I NEVER EVER make exceptions, in fact it's those exceptions that separate the hooked from the free. I do them exactly once a month- never less, never more.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: gzuf]
    #19191434 - 11/26/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gzuf said:
Quote:

Alexestalex said:
When I do opiates, I completely stop clinging to my desires and materialistic possessions..................., and start clinging to opiates instead.




You sure this isn't happening instead?



But doesn't one thing always replace the other, in that sense? What if you reach the same state through meditation, could you argue that you cling to meditation then? What would make one route to the same state inherently better than the other?


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Invisiblegzuf
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19191435 - 11/26/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's pretty admirable if you can stay the course :thumbup:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: gzuf] * 2
    #19191736 - 11/26/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it's worth mentioning that a practice of Buddhist meditation can actually lead to these feelings without drugs....they are indeed the same feelings though so it's not surprising that you feel the connection. zen on brotha :japsmile::buddha2:


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Invisiblethizzlemaniac
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: g00ru]
    #19191935 - 11/26/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I thought Buddhism was all about getting those feelings without the help of chemicals.  It's about all of those feelings mentioned above and the ultimate happiness through the power of thought and letting go of things that are negative.  Living in the now and shit like that...


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: thizzlemaniac]
    #19191944 - 11/26/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's all about dogma, like every other belief system.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: thizzlemaniac]
    #19191963 - 11/26/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thizzlemaniac said:
I thought Buddhism was all about getting those feelings without the help of chemicals.  It's about all of those feelings mentioned above and the ultimate happiness through the power of thought and letting go of things that are negative.  Living in the now and shit like that...




that's a good assessment imo. i just went to a buddhist talk the other day actually.

the monk who gave it was interesting...she really did have some spiritual ability to enter states of deep calmness, that much was obvious. i think it's an awesome religion.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: g00ru] * 3
    #19192009 - 11/26/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The world is on fucking fire and westerners are looking for ways to soothe their minds. They should be hauling fucking water.


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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: koraks]
    #19192025 - 11/26/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't tie them together like this. It's pretty damaging to the religion. Opiates numb you, it's nothing new. When they are gone everything comes back to you...

#1 rule of digging holes..

when your in one, don't dig another..


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: koraks]
    #19192066 - 11/26/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
The world is on fucking fire and westerners are looking for ways to soothe their minds. They should be hauling fucking water.




maybe they do haul water...i dunno


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: koraks]
    #19192171 - 11/26/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the world needs spiritual water to cleanse them of greed.

btw i need to get myslef some opiates. op makes them sound so good.


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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: zZZz]
    #19192234 - 11/26/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The path of opiates and Buddhism cannot be any further from the opposite.. Yes, they may lead to a higher level of comfort and a feeling of being content with life. But once you stop the opiates, its a world of pain and weakness. Buddhism is more of a long term option.


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Offlinedrkkenny
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19192515 - 11/26/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah they absolutely tend to have that tranquil effect that enables your problems to dissolve right in front of you. You begin to feel as if the weight on your chest was removed & are able to be "free" again.  I really need to get my hands on some opiates but they are hard to find around here. 'bet they would help me talk to girls better than E since I wouldnt come off as a reckless loony & be able to have more control over the situation.


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Edited by drkkenny (11/26/13 03:12 PM)


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Offlineclaraclairvoyant
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Alexestalex] * 2
    #19192538 - 11/26/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it's proven science that with each nod one becomes a little more enlightened.
:havesomescience:


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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: claraclairvoyant]
    #19192696 - 11/26/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Do you get to this state with other substances as well? I go there on psychedelics, maybe i can go there in an opium way.  Spice gets me there in a peculiar way.


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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Anahata]
    #19192714 - 11/26/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

without pain, there is only emptiness.


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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Alexestalex] * 2
    #19192760 - 11/26/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Before an argument comes up about the Buddhist perspective of drugs, I'm going to post this:

--
Robert Forte: Jack, thanks very much for sharing your perspective. With so much said about psychedelic experience and spirituality it may help to look at psychedelics from within an extant spiritual discipline. There is a great deal in Buddhism that can illuminate psychedelic phenomena and help us to understand the curative effect—when there is a curative effect. Maybe a Buddhist perspective can help us to maximize the positive effects of psychedelic experiences and improve or reduce the negative ones.

Jack Kornfield: There are a couple of things I want to start with, some thoughts I have had on the subject, and we can go on from there. The first is a statement in answer to your question, which asks for a Buddhist point of view on psychedelics. It is important to say that there is no Buddhist point of view on psychedelics. They are rarely found in the Buddhist tradition, if at all, and generally would be lumped in the precepts under “intoxicants.” In the Zen, Vajrayana, and Theravada traditions, the three largest living traditions, there is very little mention of them, very little written, and there is no traditional point of view about the use of them. It is important to understand that. What points of view we have come from our understanding of Buddhist masters and teachers based on contemporary experience. But there is not a traditional body of knowledge in relationship to these substances that I know of.

A second point to make is that, unlike in Hinduism, which at least in its modern form uses a variety of mind-altering substances— particularly things like hashish that some sadhus use sitting by the river Ganges smoking a chillum—the fundamental relationship to psychedelics in Buddhist practice and tradition is as intoxicants.

The precept in Theravadan Buddhism for dealing with intoxicants is one of the five basic training precepts: not to kill, not to steal, not to speak falsely, not to engage in sexual misconduct, and lastly, to refrain from using intoxicants to the point of heedlessness, loss of mindfulness, or loss of awareness. It does not say not to use them, and it is very explicit. It is interesting that it is worded that way: to not use intoxicants to the point of loss of consciousness or awareness. There is another translation of it, which says not to use intoxicants which remove that sense of attention or awareness. Then it is left up to the individual, as are all of the precepts, to use as a guideline to become more genuinely conscious.

A third thought I have to start the conversation, and I think I mention this in Living Buddhist Masters, is that practice in the West has taken a reverse direction from spiritual practice in the Asias, particularly Buddhist practice, but Hindu as well.

In Asia the tradition has three parts. You begin with sila or virtue . This is the foundation upon which any spiritual life is built. People take care with those precepts. They do not harm. There is a development of ahimsa, a respectful, caring, and nonviolent relationship to the people and beings around. This allows the heart to open and the mind to quiet. Out of sila comes the various spiritual practices. They are built on that as a foundation.

The second step comes after you are living a moral and a harmonious life— without which you cannot really have a quiet mind or an open heart. When your actions are in harmony, then you begin to train yourself through yoga, through concentration practices, through all different ways to begin to tame the wild and untamed monkey mind and to use that training to open up the inner realms. This is samadhi, or concentration.

The third domain is the domain of wisdom, prajna, from which arise the kinds of insights and understandings of the play of consciousness in the realm of human experience , based on the foundation of a moral life and the training in various disciplines. When those insights arise and wisdom comes they are established on a base so they become available to you easily. They already have become integrated in your life by your discipline and your prior training—and you have a context to understand them in. What has happened in the West seems to be a reverse of that.

Many people who took LSD, mushrooms, or whatever it was, along with a little spiritual reading of The Tibetan Book of the Dead or some Zen texts, had the gates of wisdom opened to a certain extent. They began to see that their limited consciousness was only one plane and one level and that there were a thousand new things to discover about the mind. There are many new realms, new perspectives on birth and death; on the nature of mind and consciousness as the field of creation, rather than the mechanical result of having a body, the biological result; and on the myth of separation and the truth of the oneness of things. Great kinds of wisdom opened up, and for some people, their hearts, too. They began to see the dance in much greater perspective.

People’s obvious experience was that in order to maintain this they had to keep taking the psychedelics over and over; generally speaking, that is what happened. Even though there were some transformations from these experiences, they tended to fade for a lot of people, at least aspects of them. We might want to discuss this further.

Anyway, this is a kind of simplistic analogy to the East and West, but I think there might be some crucial points to it. Following that people said, “If we can’t maintain the highs of consciousness that come through the psychedelics, let’s see if there is some other way.” And so people undertook various kinds of spiritual disciplines. They did kundalini yoga and bastrika breathing , or they did serious hatha yoga as a sadhana, raja yoga, light and concentration exercises, visualizations, or Buddhist practices as a way to get back to those profound and compelling states that had come through psychedelics.
--

Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice: An Interview with Jack Kornfield.
From the book, Entheogens and the Future of Religion by Robert Forte


You can find the rest here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18430408


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: s240779]
    #19192856 - 11/26/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Buddhism is crack and opiates are great in gentle moderation.


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Invisible404
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19193291 - 11/26/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"and lastly, to refrain from using intoxicants to the point of heedlessness, loss of mindfulness, or loss of awareness. It does not say not to use them, and it is very explicit. It is interesting that it is worded that way: to not use intoxicants to the point of loss of consciousness or awareness. There is another translation of it, which says not to use intoxicants which remove that sense of attention or awareness."

personally i have found psychedelics to be more sobering in a sense. i dont think they really dull you at all, maybe make you more aware of things as a whole. then again that is very dose dependant, a lot can make you drop into a new dimension with dmt, and if you take enough lsd you can white out.

edit- i realize the OP was about opiates.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: claraclairvoyant]
    #19195331 - 11/27/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

claraclairvoyant said:
it's proven science that with each nod one becomes a little more enlightened.
:havesomescience:




:yesnod:


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: claraclairvoyant]
    #19195377 - 11/27/13 08:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

claraclairvoyant said:
it's proven science that with each nod one becomes a little more enlightened.
:havesomescience:



:laugh2:

OP- you are on a VERY slippery slope. Everyone tells themselves they have control over the situation. After being on this forum as long as I have and having seen the struggles so many of my friends have been through with opiates, I would strongly suggest you check yourself before you wreck yourself.


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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19196499 - 11/27/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
Quote:

claraclairvoyant said:
it's proven science that with each nod one becomes a little more enlightened.
:havesomescience:



:laugh2:

OP- you are on a VERY slippery slope. Everyone tells themselves they have control over the situation. After being on this forum as long as I have and having seen the struggles so many of my friends have been through with opiates, I would strongly suggest you check yourself before you wreck yourself.




"They make me feel like I'm supposed to feel. All those promises of contentment and fulfillment we're sold by society, parents, and government never delivered much. Opiates make everything make sense and feel secure, balanced, and beautiful. They're the night time embrace of a lover that won't divorce you; all the paychecks from your employer that weren't eaten up by bills and taxes; it's the real graduation certificate that was magically supposed to make you a notch above the rest.

In short, I feel like being high on opiates is what the human game SHOULD feel like. I'm normal and healthy and happy when I'm high. Yes, yes. I know that's the trap and sets the long hard road towards addiction. I've managed it effectively for years."


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InvisibleDr.Dankhead
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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19197404 - 11/27/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alexestalex said:
When I do opiates, I completely stop clinging to my desires and materialistic possessions. It's honestly one of the most liberating feelings imaginable. Everything feels so empty in the most pleasant way imaginable. I even stop clinging to other people's opinions of me, it just DOESN'T MATTER in the slightest. It's breathtaking. 

I just feel like the mindset opiates put me in is very buddhist like. Nothing can phase me, nothing can anger me, nothing can annoy me. Disappointment and jealousy are replaced with a blissful void. Every grudge I've ever held on, every wrong that somebody has done to me, and every shred of guilt I've built up over the years just disintegrates beautifully. 

Has anyone learnt any valuable life lessons with opiates? I feel like drug users generally believe that psychedelics are the only category of drugs that hold value and provide a method of enlightenment but opiates have definitely changed my world view. They've made me far more relaxed, mellow, and chill. It's not a bad thing per say, I'm loving it. :smile:




Just wait tell you try to quit but your in too deep..

You can't live the rest of your life high on opiates all your life. I've been using for 4 years straight, my parents found out in the worst possible way.. I passed out in the bathroom high as shit, lol.. Now, i either quit or get kicked out. Quitting is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. It's soooo tempting, but i remeber when i could control how often i used, and had the same mindset as you.. Opiates are magical, but for your own safety just take a break every now and then to prove your mental strength.

If you have a easy, and really really large source of opiates like i did, you get so used to taking it everyday that it just becomes normal everyday activity.. I NEEDED it to feel normal.

I quit and was sober from nov 10 ... But three days ago i got a chance to do some again, so.. I did. Of course. Life just totally changes i get blurry eyes, gut aches, your so used to being numbed of pain that when you stop every joint and bone hurts like you wouldn't believe. Restless legs, irritability, emotional detachment, list goes on.. The physical withdrawl is bad, but the craving for that magical feeling is what is the most impacting.

I should of never broke up those pills and started, but if i could go back I'd do it all over again:hellyeah:

Just mark my words young lad, opiates are magical, mystical chemicals, but one must treat with the utmost respect. Good luck on your journey, by the time people realize they're in too deep, it's too late.


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Re: Buddhism and opiates [Re: Dr.Dankhead] * 1
    #19197971 - 11/27/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

hey everybody,

i really appreciate the op's posting this; it's an interesting question to consider.  i've been an active, practicing buddhist for a few years and a daily meditator for a few more.  i'm no expert and no dharma teacher but will share my thoughts and feelings for what they're worth.  if you disagree with my views please share why, in case i'm mistaken.

i often see variations on the following view: "buddhism is about not being attached to desire and anger" or "the goal of buddhism is to be at complete peace with the moment" etc.

i see these views as approximately equivalent and also not entirely true, in part because they all seem to advocate attaining a temporary state of mind as way to salvation.

buddhist meditation is usually done for the purpose of resting one's awareness in the present moment.  why would we want to do such a thing?  i believe the understanding is that by resting our awareness in the present moment, we can see reality more clearly and eventually be free of ignorance, which is the root cause of all suffering.

this doesn't mean that the goal of buddhist meditation is to enter a temporary state in which we are at peace.  the goal of buddhist meditation is to put an end to ignorance, which is the cause of all suffering.

it's like if you were listening to music and your friend came up to you to say hi.  before you notice your friend, you're ignorant of her presence.  as soon as you become aware of her presence, you're free of that ignorance; it's gone and can't come back.

at the moment we're ignorant of the true nature of reality, which is selfless and excellent etc etc.  if we have the great fortune of seeing the true nature of reality, in that moment there will be no ignorance.  if such insight became our stable experience of reality, we would no longer have any suffering and would be enlightened.

that hasn't happened yet.  being blissed out on opiates may be a beneficial experience for a person seeking enlightenment; it's certainly cleared obstacles in my life and helped me to connect with the genuinely excellent reality of having human body and heart.  but because the experience was so good and also so transient, i became very attached to it and had to leave opiates behind for my own peace of mind.

the state of peace found in opiates does little to actually remove ignorance, the cause of all suffering; this is evidenced by the fact that the experience is so self-centered.  can you weep with compassion for the suffering of all sentient beings when you're on opiates?  what about on LSD?

variations on this question have helped me to clarify which drug experiences are helpful on my path and which are not so helpful.


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