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OfflineDangerousSloth
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Exploding Jars
    #19185623 - 11/25/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So after about a year or so of reading up on growing mushrooms, I've decided to finally do it. I have all the required materials and setup for the grow, but I still have one thing that bothers me: exploding jars.

When you sterilize the jars (using the PF Tek for my first grow), wouldn't the heat expand the air in the jars causing them to explode unless there was a way for the air to escape? And if there was a way for the air to escape wouldn't all the moisture in the jars evaporate to steam, drying the substrate out?

I'm probably wrong about this because I don't know much about chemistry, I'm only worried because I remember way back in high school I knew two people who tried to grow and all or nearly all their jars exploded. Then again, those two had little to no common sense.

So yea, if anyone could clear up my misunderstanding on the subject, that would be great.


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OfflineTroxyn
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: DangerousSloth]
    #19185625 - 11/25/13 06:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

moisture doesnt get in because of the foil you put over the jars.

air escapes because of the holes in the jars.


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OfflineDangerousSloth
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: Troxyn]
    #19185629 - 11/25/13 06:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So as long as I put the 4 holes in the jar lid beforehand along with the layers of tinfoil on top, it will all be fine? Wouldn't the foil on top make the holes useless since it is covering them up? I thought you were supposed to put the foil on pretty tight.


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OfflineSamhainJ
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: DangerousSloth]
    #19185637 - 11/25/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The foil is jist for steaming or pressure ooking.. you fill the jar up with a layer of dry verm to help keep contams from getting  foothold.. ive left foil on after innocing and taken ot off other times with good results either way..


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OfflineDangerousSloth
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: SamhainJ]
    #19185651 - 11/25/13 07:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, well now my mind is somewhat at ease. Plan is to start the process later today, hopefully all goes well. Wish me luck.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: SamhainJ]
    #19185652 - 11/25/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Unless you have something inside the jar that creates a chemical reaction causing an explosion/rapid increase in pressure then you'll be fine even if the jar were sealed (maybe not completely sealed, but more like regular canning). The pressure inside increases, but so does the pressure outside so it equalizes. In regular canning the rubber gasket allows gas exchange during the canning process to ensure this equalization, and in mushroom cultivation you have GE holes in addition to this so it should be even less of a concern. The foil on top cannot hold much pressure, so it would definitely lift off before any explosion occured. There is probably a trivial amount of moisture exchange between the inside and the outside of the jar(s), but keep in mind after the PC reaches pressure the inside is at 100% humidity so any moisture loss would be very minimal inside of the jars and after the pressure equalizes (which pretty much happens in concert) there should be little reason air or moisture would be forced inside of your jars, especially with the foil on top.


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OfflineSgt. Pepper
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: krypto2000]
    #19185663 - 11/25/13 07:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I once made the dumbass mistake of pc'ing jars of lc with no holes in the lid with the lid completely tightened down! I finished the pc run and opened them completely terrified, but they didn't even explode! Exploding jars isn't really much of a worry.


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OfflineTroxyn
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: DangerousSloth]
    #19185698 - 11/25/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DangerousSloth said:
So as long as I put the 4 holes in the jar lid beforehand along with the layers of tinfoil on top, it will all be fine? Wouldn't the foil on top make the holes useless since it is covering them up? I thought you were supposed to put the foil on pretty tight.




the holes in the jars are used for air flow to the mycelium so that it grows.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19185722 - 11/25/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's how canning works though, when canning food your jars do not actually create a seal until after you take them out of the PCer even, that's what that pop that you hear is. The heat causes a buildup of pressure inside the jar forcing the air out, after it equalizes a vacuum will form inside which holds the lid on and as the jar continues to cool the vacuum gets stronger and stronger because the pressure inside the jar drops while remaining the same outside. I even make my LC's without GE holes because I don't see a point, they have enough air in the jars to last as long as I need them to and I feel a GE hole would just open up another vector for contaminants and make shaking the LC's that much more difficult since you have to worry about your filter getting wet.


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InvisibleSmeagol
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: Troxyn]
    #19185732 - 11/25/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've never had a jar explode when canning. the closest I have came is putting a jar of tomatoes that had dropped to room temp in boiling water. It just cracked and stayed together till I took it out.

I overly tightened tops on a whole batch of green beans in the pressure cooker and all that happened was they didn't seal after cooling and it took all I had to get the metal rings off. They "sealed" but no vacuum was created and the lids didn't pop down.


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Invisibleanne halonium
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: Smeagol]
    #19186024 - 11/25/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

many jar issues, can be solved by using PP5 contianers.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: DangerousSloth]
    #19186063 - 11/25/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Your jars won't explode do to pressure build up. The holes allow pressure to escape.

The foil keeps water from raining down on your lids and leaking in. Without it, your dry vermiculite layer would get wet rendering it useless as a contam barrier. Your cake moisture would also be out of whack.

The foil is not an airtight seal and pressure will easily escape. The foil comes off and stays off after inoculation. Leaving the foil on after inoculation can cause colonization to stall because of restricted GE.

Make sure you put something on bottom of your PC so the jars don't sit directly on the heat source.  Use the trivet that came with your PC. This will keep the jars from cracking.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19186247 - 11/25/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
The foil comes off and stays off after inoculation sterilization.



:thumbup:


Edited by PussyFart (11/25/13 10:23 AM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: PussyFart]
    #19186306 - 11/25/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My point is to leave the foil off during colonization.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19186314 - 11/25/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My point is to remove it after sterilization and keep it off.

It could take a week to knock up the cakes....no reason to have the foil on during this time.

It is only helping the dry verm layer become moist.

Foil gets removed after sterilization.


Edited by PussyFart (11/25/13 10:37 AM)


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: PussyFart]
    #19186323 - 11/25/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Both points are valid.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19186506 - 11/25/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I do grain in which case it only serves to dry them out, there's no reason to take the foil off until you inoculate. I really can't see that causing your verm to get wet either though unless your pf jars were oversaturated anyway.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: krypto2000]
    #19186522 - 11/25/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I do grain in which case it only serves to dry them out, there's no reason to take the foil off until you inoculate. I really can't see that causing your verm to get wet either though unless your pf jars were oversaturated anyway.



Lets say you have an old dried out cookie, and a fresh piece of bread.

Throw them both in the same airtight container for a day.

At the end of the day the cookie will be softer and more chewy.

This is because the moisture from the bread was absorbed by the cookie.

Same thing with dry verm on top of we BRF in a semi-sealed jar.

Unless air is able to get to the dry verm layer to keep it dry, chances are it will become moist.

This is why the foil gets removed after sterilization.

For grain jars it should make little difference.

I use SFDs on my grain jars so I don't even use foil anymore.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: PussyFart]
    #19186942 - 11/25/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's a fair point, but I still question whether it would happen to a significant degree, why wouldn't the same thing happen during colinization? Dispite the holes being uncovered they're still small enough to cause the moisture content to equalize. I really can't see it absorbing anymore moisture than it would during PCing either which should cause the exact same thing in the short amount of time it's in there, I just don't think they'd be wet enough for anything to germinate, if they were then verm would not act as a very good filter. It's been so long since I've done the pf-tek though and I never let jars sit uninoculated when I did so perhaps with pftek with uncovered inoculation/GE holes it is just a race against the clock.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Exploding Jars [Re: krypto2000]
    #19187057 - 11/25/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't done PF Tek in the traditional way in a while either.

When I did do it, My dry verm barrier was never completely dry when I birthed. There was always a noticable difference between it and the verm still in my bag.

I always left the foil on till I inoculated. But I always inoculated within a day or two after sterilizing.

The foil does restrict GE, so it's reasonable to think it would also restrict moisture from escaping. If that moisture has nowhere else to go, then it's reasonable to think it will be absorbed by the dry verm barrier.

Within the jar, evaporation, condensation, and wicking occur. The micro climate within the jar eventually makes your verm layer absorb some moisture.

I can't honestly comment on the significance during a particular time-frame except to say "leaving the foil on for a couple of days after sterilization is insignificant."


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