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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
    #19172427 - 11/21/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why can't I fail? I'm just out $1.50 for the rice. Honestly, the only way I should even fail is if I didn't steam it long enough or if I inoculate with bad LC, which is why I have 8 to try. The moisture content is fine. It looks rice inside the jars, not mush.

I had some WBS and popcorn on hand too. Be grateful I didn't try that lol.


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
    #19172433 - 11/21/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

FWIW my PC was 20$ I see them pop up on craigslist daily for 20-40$ plenty good enough ones to do 4 quart jars and get you started.


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19172465 - 11/21/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No dice. I already checked craigslist and there were 3. Two of them were the same size as the one I have and the third was out of my price range. I also checked craigslist in the past to no avail. Flea market sounds like a better option but then again, it's easier to wait on cash and spend $100 on something new that will last forever.


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
    #19173611 - 11/22/13 04:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i find it shocking,
that peeps claim better results steaming than most PC peeps claim.

modern labs, and serious adult growers,
all know a PC is required for tangible work.
they wont be persuaded by the no contams from boiling ,
its pure bullshit.
the sane , arent likely to equate luck and skill.

my fear here is for the noobs that read this.
they just go with what they wanna hear.

im sure theres lots of former noobs that get the joke here.
its on them, if they think they can steam their way to shroom stardom.

ill bet theres peeps reading this,that when they were noobs
were hoodwinked by grow posers and charlatans and hacks with steamers,
that lost hundred$ trying to replicate their fanciful claims.
im sure they are too embarassed , to admit their folly.

fact is, the steam punks never really produce much,
and all serious growers use PC's.
steam punks just cluster and make alot of noise,
creating a false impression they are legit.

for every one of these poor souls,
ive seen 10 posts on other threads where peeps say,
" god im glad i got a PC finally , steaming is stupid"

the idea theres serious growers who do not, use PC's is myth.
this about peeps too cheap to get a PC conjuring fantasy credibility,
while making wild claims on small batches , with little frame of reference, and marginal bio handling experience.

of course, anyone who grows in the tropics,
realizes steaming is beyond moronic.
steamers think everyone lives in the arctic.
its "go to hell " for everyone else, literally.
its certainly a shitty flawed tek,
if it only works for peeps in cold areas,
when mom and dad pay the fuel bills.( that is when , it does work)

its the type of grow only Ted Kaczynski would endorse.

only a noob would fall for it.
its sad so many do.


--------------------
:aliendance:


Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 04:53 AM)


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
    #19180090 - 11/23/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Honestly man, if I were trying to grow commercially then there's no way in hell I'd use a PC. It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to rig a giant steamer and go the fractional sterilization route than to PC small amounts 24/7.

Noobs already largely use the steam route. It's called the PF tek. This new "tek" really doesn't change that much so it's not hard to see why the few who are using it are having good results. What does change is colonization times and the amount of nutes per jar. Both are vastly improved. If cooking rice correctly is the only added obstacle then for fuck's sake, learn how to cook rice. It's also worth keeping in mind that the rice is sufficiently hydrated and thus conducts heat more or less the same as the PF tek.

If there was a single person that lost hundreds trying to employ the steam route then that person is a complete dumbass. How would anyone spend that much money when the argument against the PC almost always comes down to money? People have the equipment to steam already. They just need jars, a spore syringe, and a few other cheap supplies to get started which is well under $50.

Define a serious grower. A quart jar 3/4 full of cooked rice will yield somewhere in the ballpark of 20g dry if not more. That's on par with WBS yields. The term "bulk" in the way it's used around here is misleading. Spawning to bulk (manure, coir, etc.) does not drastically increase yields. It doesn't have the nutes to do so. What it does do is supply water. If a colonized rice cake maintains its sponginess then there's not a hell of a lot of sense in spawning to bulk with it to begin with. By dunking and rolling, you may end up with slightly less yields than you would with other grains, but you'll get those yields a hell of a lot quicker.

All in all, rice cakes have a lot of potential. It's a shame folks can't get past it being starchy and thus sticky, especially given that it's more work trying to get WBS into a useable state.


Edited by Ara16w (11/23/13 07:15 PM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
    #19180178 - 11/23/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:
Honestly man, if I were trying to grow commercially then there's no way in hell I'd use a PC. It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to rig a giant steamer and go the fractional sterilization route than to PC small amounts 24/7.



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No it does not work.  I suggest if you wish to claim it does that you 'fractional sterilize' 100 jars of grains and inoculate them.  If over 50 of those jars produce mushrooms, you can say it has a 50% success/fail rate.  I know for a fact however that you won't be able to get 50 out of 100 jars to fruit that way.

After preparation of the grains, you can steam at 100C for 8 hours and succeed.  In fact, this is the method we use on our commercial mushroom farm to achieve 100% success.  Not only that, but we're at 4000' elevation so water boils at less than 100C.  The key is to keep the grains or supplemented sawdust at or near 100C for 8 hours.

Obviously a pressure cooker or sterilizer is best and quickest, but the above works.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17867637#17867637

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Fractional sterilization fails 90% or greater of the time.

Steam grain jars as in the brf tek for 8 hours all at once if you don't have a pressure cooker.  Keep a second pot of water on the stove boiling so you can add water as needed several times over that 8 hours.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17046622#17046622


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19180199 - 11/23/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Anyone who says steam sterilization without pressure isn't enough is flat-out wrong.  It's the method we use on our mushroom farm for thousands of pounds of substrate per week with 100% success.  If someone is failing with steam sterilization, they're not doing it right.
RR




You don't need a PC, but you do need time if you don't have a PC.


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19180365 - 11/23/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you for the correction on that one. It's a minor difference in the length of time anyway, but I'm surprised that fractional sterilization doesn't work... Wasn't it used successfully before pressure cooking (not mushrooms, but for food preservation)?


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19180371 - 11/23/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

More success stories of whole grain rice and no PC here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15788207/fpart/5/vc/1

These are all in the 90-120 minute range on par with the PF tek, not the 8 hour method for doing other grains.


And another:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1135030

Quote:

soochi said:
Yes, I have personally found success in using whole brown rice (Basmati, in fact) I cased with 50/50 organic compost and verm. I recommend casing when using whole brown rice; I have also been successful in fruiting crumbled brf/verm cakes. To think about it, I think casing really is the way to go. Whole Rye is sometimes hard to find; so is millet and straw. I should also note that I don't have a pressure cooker. I use a steamer and steam the rice in quart jars (easier to find), steam has a higher temperature than boiling water, albeit not as high as a pressure cooker, but it seems to work for me. 




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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
    #19180444 - 11/23/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Gah, I fell victim to the hype. Mulligan!

RR is wrong about tyndallization (fractional sterilization). Sterile is sterile. There's no way in hell companies used / are using this method to sterilize food if it doesn't work. Even if it works once, it works. The problem was with his technique. I'm not saying I can do it any better and I'll grant him that steaming for 8 hours is probably a lot quicker.

The success in tyndallization has to be in the time the "food" is heated. I sure as fuck wouldn't try 3 back to back days of 15 minutes like wikipedia says. Completely winging it, I would have went 2 hours for 4 days and that could still lead to shotty results. God knows how long you have to heat it like that, but volume is of course going to come into play as well.

RR also outright shunned whole brown rice in one of his comments I found pulling these success stories. His gripe was the starch. As I previously stated, it's not that different from the slime that comes with prepping WBS. Leaving it on there is a rookie mistake that's going to cause contam rates to soar.

I accept RR for what he is, an experienced grower. He's not an omniscient being, nor is he my God. He's just a small part of it :rolleyes:


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
    #19180619 - 11/23/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think the reason is very obvious, wbrf is powder and grains are grains.
Try to steam wbr without grinding it to flour and you'll see what I mean.

That's for OP's question. My 2 cents...

But as for the debate going on... The savings in time and on your energy bill from using a PC make the PC cheaper in the end. It's an investment, not a purchase, IMO.

As for commercial growers...
Legal: buy spawn bags (editted in: or may use autoclave)
Illegal: we'll never know (would you come here to claim you have a criminal commercial enterprise and then give us all the details of how you proceed?)

I stay neutral in this game but I do not encourage sharing information on how to commercially grow illicit mushrooms. I distance myself from this... Not judging or condoning, but if they have their own unique teks which differ from the norm, I think sharing that info could be a bad influence to newbies who are getting hyped up...


--------------------
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For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


Edited by jpack666 (11/23/13 10:13 PM)


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: jpack666]
    #19180671 - 11/23/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What?  Commercial growers use autoclaves, not fractional sterilization...

Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization, but why not invest in a PC?  If you can't invest $70 on a Presto 23qt, maybe you should concentrate on other priorities rather than growing cubes?

Trust me, I'm frugal, but if you shop around you can find a PC for short $$


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: jpack666]
    #19180735 - 11/23/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization




You can get GREAT commercial success rates with steam sterilization.  http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Wood-Fired-Steam-Boiler


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

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Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


Edited by elasticaltiger (11/23/13 10:31 PM)


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19180742 - 11/23/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization




You can get GREAT commercial success rates with steam sterilization.  http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Wood-Fired-Steam-Boiler



Depending on how long you choose to steam sterilize, sure.


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19180754 - 11/23/13 10:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization




You can get GREAT commercial success rates with steam sterilization.  http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Wood-Fired-Steam-Boiler



Depending on how long you choose to steam sterilize, sure.




Which begs the question: Why would anyone half ass their steam sterilization effort? 

Mysteries like this flow throughout our universe.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
    #19181798 - 11/24/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:
Long story short, the PC I bought isn't big enough to hold quarts jars (all I could afford) and I made this discovery after cooking some whole grain brown rice. I do have a large canner that doesn't hold pressure so I loaded up the jars with the rice and am currently steaming them for 90 minutes.

If one can get away without using a PC for the PF tek, is it not feasible that whole grains should also work?




Not all grains are the same. It would appear that WBR is easier to sterilize than other grains commonly used in cultivation.

This could be because WBR is softer or doesn't carry the bio load than grains like WBS and Rye.


Quote:

Ara16w said:
RR is wrong about tyndallization (fractional sterilization). Sterile is sterile. There's no way in hell companies used / are using this method to sterilize food if it doesn't work. Even if it works once, it works. The problem was with his technique. I'm not saying I can do it any better and I'll grant him that steaming for 8 hours is probably a lot quicker.




Yes, sterile is sterile. The question is "Is it sterile?". Different methods of sterilization, and pasteurization for that matter, can be used with different foods.

Show me a company that sells hydrated WBS or Rye that is sterilized using fractional sterilization. My point here is that just because the food industry does something to prep food for consumption does not mean it is viable for cultivation.

Different foods with different intents require different preparation methods.


Quote:

Ara16w said:
RR also outright shunned whole brown rice in one of his comments I found pulling these success stories. His gripe was the starch. As I previously stated, it's not that different from the slime that comes with prepping WBS. Leaving it on there is a rookie mistake that's going to cause contam rates to soar.

I accept RR for what he is, an experienced grower. He's not an omniscient being, nor is he my God. He's just a small part of it :rolleyes:




Some opinions are based on facts and experience. Some opinions are based on preference and experience.

TC's have just as much right to be opinionated based on preference as anybody else.

Arguing with a TC about fact is a fool's errand.

The trick is to distinguish what's based on fact and what's based on preference.

The best way to knock a TC off their high-horse is to ignore them and prove them wrong with your own accomplishments. Good luck:thumbup:


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: mycomattie]
    #19183980 - 11/24/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mycomattie said:
What?  Commercial growers use autoclaves, not fractional sterilization...

Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization, but why not invest in a PC?  If you can't invest $70 on a Presto 23qt, maybe you should concentrate on other priorities rather than growing cubes?

Trust me, I'm frugal, but if you shop around you can find a PC for short $$




The point is that there exists a method which produces similar results to other grains such as WBS or rye that can be spawned to bulk without the need for a pressure cooker. Let me repeat that. Nearly identical results, no pressure cooker. Given the number of new growers, the PF tek, and all the threads in existence trying to find a way around the pressure cooker, it's highly sought information that isn't well known. In fact, it's still being debated in this thread despite all the separate claims of success.

If you want to prep and PC WBS, rye, or whatever, then you have my blessing even though I never suggested anything to the contrary. However, allow me to go over the benefits of properly prepped whole rice once more:

1). A PC isn't necessary. If it makes you sleep better at night you can still use one and achieve identical results.

2). The amount of nutrients in a whole rice jar is a lot higher than the PF tek because there's more rice. Based on the half pint PF teks consistently yielding at least 5g dry for experienced growers, I suggested that a quart of whole rice would yield at least 20g dry which is low balling it. It should give WBS and rye yields a run for their money.

3). It colonizes quickly without the need for shaking (in as little as 10 days) because of the dense yet aerated structure of the cooked rice.

4). Cooked rice is spongey and thus holds onto water well doing away with the need for spawning to bulk. In one thread, someone was having difficulty soaking their rice cakes correctly because they tried to do it for the same length of time as other grains and the rice turned to mush which later contaminated. From that, one can conclude that there's a perfect amount of time to soak a rice cake without the need for substrate. The rez-effect should be more than sufficient.

Spawning to bulk is not necessarily the greatest notion that was ever conceived of in regards to mycology. Using anything beyond a 1:2 ratio of spawn to bulk seems completely idiotic. Once again, bulk substrates lack the nutrients to increase yields. They exist mainly for the purpose of supplying water to developing fruit bodies. Crumbling non-consolidated cakes opens the possibility of contamination and uses nutrients for the purpose of colonization rather than increasing your yields.

5). The time involved from start to finish is significantly lowered which simultaneously cuts down on the risk of contamination developing and preventing a full yield.

Less work, noob friendly, no PC required. The only tricky parts are cooking the rice correctly and washing the excess starch off. Undercooking it by 5-10 minutes (based on the package directions) is the best bet as this leaves the outside well-hydrated but the inside firm. When you steam or PC the jars, the water inside the grains will redistribute and the inside of the grains is not likely to still be firm, but equally hydrated throughout.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
    #19184575 - 11/24/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

modern labs, and serious adult growers,
all know a PC is required for tangible work.



I guarantee no labs are going to use a pressure. They'll use an autoclave. Of course that doesn't mean you can't use the a pressure cooker without success. Now before you say there's no difference, there is, especially with the rotary based autoclaves that often used for spawn production. The difference is time, and that's same difference between steaming in a pot at 0 PSI or in a PC at 15 PSI


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Kizzle]
    #19185786 - 11/25/13 08:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

^just a PC is a big jump for these guys.
you can be attacked for suggesting modern lab equipment.


--------------------
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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
    #19186417 - 11/25/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You might find this interesting. This is a thermal death curve showing the equivalence of different temperatures.

No doubt there's a large difference in speed even at low PSIs. However it's a little misleading for mushroom cultivation because it's based on highly resistant Clostridium endospores which are important in canning but aren't a contaminant of mushroom spawn, because the vegetative bacteria of those is killed by oxygen. It'd be interesting to find one based on Bacillus species. It would no doubt have a similar curve but the values would be different.

This is from memory so don't quote me on it, but for a general idea of the temperatures that kill Bacillus, 110C should reduce the population of endospores by 90% every 10-12 seconds. Most of the sterilization time in a pressure cooker is spent heating the substrate to that temperature. Steaming a PF jar only reaches a lower temperature of 100C rather than the 120C obtained at 15 psi, but because it's reached sooner due to the higher density and water content, hence exposed the maximum temperature for longer during the same period of time, 100C can have the same killing effect (against the bacteria of significance) on a PF jar as 120C would have on a grain jar.

For the same reason one might predict that WBR would be sterilized somewhat easier than less dense grains (as in the amount of air to substreate) like popcorn which would probably be the hardest.

One more thing. When it's said that steaming PF jars is just as effective as PCing that is assuming ideal colonization speeds. It's possible it's not true in cases where the wrong jars were being used or anything else that leads to longer colonization times. Also some people may not realize that the 90 minutes of steaming doesn't start until the water starts boiling and the pot is filled with steam..


Edited by Kizzle (11/25/13 12:18 PM)


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