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Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Comcouveflor]
    #19182849 - 11/24/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

but after all the hard work you put into becoming enlightened you
owe it to yourself to use self renewing local ecosystem forest wood
and to drink fresh bottled artisan water


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: eve69]
    #19182925 - 11/24/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I saw a quart of water in a glass bottle and a fancy label for $3.49 at the co-op the other day.  I'm sure they are saving the planet doing such. :braindamage:

God save us from those who would save us. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #19183554 - 11/24/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive
They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time
You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions

You may not be able to change lifelong habits
The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others

Just my 2 cents





Because guru's assume you have common sense and are trying to help you escape the hell of those realities


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineKafei
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Registered: 11/18/13
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Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19185430 - 11/25/13 03:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Some gurus will flat out tell you that after enlightenment, you're still going to have to abide by society, yes that means hold a job (if you're not a successful person), and all the rest of the detritus that comes along with life.

I'd recommend Ramesh Balsekar. There's tons of videos of his lectures on YouTube. Just search his name, and pick a title that draws your attention.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #19186567 - 11/25/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Most peoples concept of enlightenment is akin to believing in Santa and the Tooth fairy imo.




I listened to an old Ram Dass lecture about the time he gave Neem Karolie Baba LSD for the 2nd time because he thought that he might have thrown the tabs over his shoulder the first time. He also related that his Guru swallowed a bunch of Arsenic, which can be changed Ayurvedically into non-toxic medicine (supposedly). The Arsenic was in its raw state, which is lethal, but the Guru did not get sick or die. Now, I simply wonder on what level are these things happening. I can believe that an old Hindu Guru WAS living in an exalted state, and COULD handle 1200 mcgs of LSD. I find it VERY difficult to believe that he ate and survived eating Arsenic. I gave the book Miracle of Love to my dad to read (all about paranormal stories about Neem Karolie) and his only response was "Bubbe Maisehs," literally, 'Grandmother's story.' Was Ram Dass lying to everyone? Was Ram sass being deceived himself, but believed the deceptions? Did Neem Karolie Baba Really perform numerous feats of non-ordinary reality?

Tooth Fairy is a rather localized Anglo bit of folklore. Santa Claus, or Father Christmas as he is called in Germany and other parts of Europe is a more pervasive piece of folklore that can be traced to a legend of Saint Nicholas (placing coins in a sock for the dowry of a young woman otherwise unable to marry), and now we have these associations with Amanita muscaria culture in Siberia. If ANY of the stories that violate physics, attributed to Neem Karolie Baba are true (like bilocation), then one has to revisit dividing a couple of loaves and fish into feeding the multitudes. How true are ANY of these stories? That is the question to which we must say 'yea' or 'nay' or just suspend either judgement altogether, and these 3 choices will determine much in our lives.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19186970 - 11/25/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Was Ram Dass lying to everyone?

Most likely imo.  :shrug:  But it was good for business so it can be forgiven. :laugh:

For sure what we choose to believe has great impact on our life.  By the time those  of us who can realize it have realized it much has been lost and changing can be very difficult.  Programming is everything (almost)

PS Please send me some homemade pumpkin pie.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #19187396 - 11/25/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry, the pumpkin pie will be green by the time it reaches you. I'll bake one if you're coming for Thanksgiving dinner though.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19187599 - 11/25/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Freeze it, pack it in dry ice and send it overnight.  My sister used to send me venison from Michigan all the time. :thumbup: Have faith brother. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
    #19187880 - 11/25/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Where are you getting this pumpkin pie fantasy from? :tongue: :evilpumpkin:  I mean, we used to buy them, not make them. This year, no Thanksgiving dinner. No guests, no family, no friends. :shrug: Dry ice in Miami? That's like a snowball in Hell.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19188493 - 11/25/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
How true are ANY of these stories? That is the question to which we must say 'yea' or 'nay' or just suspend either judgement altogether, and these 3 choices will determine much in our lives.



You (generic "you") need not surrender your powers of intellect and discernment in order to discover truth.

There is a simple test for all current-day allegers of the miraculous and seemingly-miraculous:  Submit to scientific testing.

For the guru who alleges swallowing arsenic and surviving, a simple test:  Get your sacred and enlightened tush to a well-respected, agenda-free laboratory, allow the nice men and women there to hook you up to electrodes and to film you, and swallow the arsenic that has been handed to you by the agenda-free technician who is working on his PhD and would like nothing more than to be present at the world's first documented case of the "miraculous."

Same thing for the advanced TM'ers who allege the power of levitation.  Submit to testing in a lab that has state-of-the-art cameras that can capture the levitation...  and...  presto... debate over.

Is this brain science, people?

Would not the "debate" on this stuff be over in five minutes flat -- were the guru or "levitator" to submit to this kind of testing and have the results peer-reviewed in a respected scientific journal? 

What am I missing, people.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19188672 - 11/25/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Where are you getting this pumpkin pie fantasy from? :tongue: :evilpumpkin:  I mean, we used to buy them, not make them. This year, no Thanksgiving dinner. No guests, no family, no friends. :shrug: Dry ice in Miami? That's like a snowball in Hell.





Well it never hurts to ask. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19188681 - 11/25/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
How true are ANY of these stories? That is the question to which we must say 'yea' or 'nay' or just suspend either judgement altogether, and these 3 choices will determine much in our lives.



You (generic "you") need not surrender your powers of intellect and discernment in order to discover truth.

There is a simple test for all current-day allegers of the miraculous and seemingly-miraculous:  Submit to scientific testing.

For the guru who alleges swallowing arsenic and surviving, a simple test:  Get your sacred and enlightened tush to a well-respected, agenda-free laboratory, allow the nice men and women there to hook you up to electrodes and to film you, and swallow the arsenic that has been handed to you by the agenda-free technician who is working on his PhD and would like nothing more than to be present at the world's first documented case of the "miraculous."

Same thing for the advanced TM'ers who allege the power of levitation.  Submit to testing in a lab that has state-of-the-art cameras that can capture the levitation...  and...  presto... debate over.

Is this brain science, people?

Would not the "debate" on this stuff be over in five minutes flat -- were the guru or "levitator" to submit to this kind of testing and have the results peer-reviewed in a respected scientific journal? 

What am I missing, people.





Well that's where it all breaks down doesn't it.  Here on this forum too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #19189715 - 11/25/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive
They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time
You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions

You may not be able to change lifelong habits
The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others

Just my 2 cents





The Gurus all do say that, just not that often. It's not really true, luck and slack increase with awakening. One begins to enjoy what they do and it doesn't feel like work. Bad things happen far less often and when they do they do not feel nearly as bad. The thing that labels an emotion as "negative" still occurs, but it is recognized immediately as illusion and discounted. Habits may still be there but that's because enlightenment actually has nothing to do with "you." No amount of self-development will get one there. We just have to get in a field during a storm and wait to get stuck by lightening.

Tons of scientific tests have been and are being made into meditative brain-states and neurological correlates of consciousness. The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model. James Randi's challenge was won by a homeopathy experiment, but the experimenters knew which samples were controls. Randi complained that it wasn't 'double-blind' and without the knowledge of which were which, the experiment failed.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Middleman]
    #19191033 - 11/26/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model.



Respectfully, I think that's a bogus argument.  Essentially, an anti-science argument.

If one carefully reads the work of those who refute the claims of bona fide agenda-free scientists who have studied the paranormal, what you see there is an abiding and pervasive anti-science outlook, often bordering on conspiracy theorizing.

"Scientists have a vested interest in ensuring that their "turf" is not ruffled, so they fail to empirically establish the existence of paranormal phenomena by manipulating their own self-serving models." 

That sort of bullshit.

Truth is (assuming you respect science and the work of those who pursue it), there has not been one empirically, scientifically proven instance of a paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous event in the history of the world.  Not one.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that in light of the fact that not one person who has claimed to have seen ghosts or the Virgin Mary in the flesh or whatever -- or who has claimed to be in possession of ESP powers -- has ever been able to establish these things to the satisfaction of the worldwide scientific community -- that any of that junk is for real.

It is, in my opinion, all make-believe -- engineered by people who are making vast fortunes by playing off the hopes, fears and vulnerabilities of gullible human beings.


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Invisiblecez
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Posts: 5,854
Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #19191492 - 11/26/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive
They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time
You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions

You may not be able to change lifelong habits
The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others

Just my 2 cents




I would imagine an enlightened being wouldn't waste much mental energy on these things though.
I think we all have to experience them, but there's a difference between experiencing and clinging.

And I don't think you have to work long shitty hours to survive.  You have to work long shitty hours to survive if you choose a shitty job with long hours.
..And I imagine an enlightened person wouldn't have this mindset of "wanting to survive"


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty] * 2
    #19191666 - 11/26/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model.



Respectfully, I think that's a bogus argument.  Essentially, an anti-science argument.

If one carefully reads the work of those who refute the claims of bona fide agenda-free scientists who have studied the paranormal, what you see there is an abiding and pervasive anti-science outlook, often bordering on conspiracy theorizing.

"Scientists have a vested interest in ensuring that their "turf" is not ruffled, so they fail to empirically establish the existence of paranormal phenomena by manipulating their own self-serving models." 

That sort of bullshit.

Truth is (assuming you respect science and the work of those who pursue it), there has not been one empirically, scientifically proven instance of a paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous event in the history of the world.  Not one.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that in light of the fact that not one person who has claimed to have seen ghosts or the Virgin Mary in the flesh or whatever -- or who has claimed to be in possession of ESP powers -- has ever been able to establish these things to the satisfaction of the worldwide scientific community -- that any of that junk is for real.

It is, in my opinion, all make-believe -- engineered by people who are making vast fortunes by playing off the hopes, fears and vulnerabilities of gullible human beings.




I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Kickle]
    #19191739 - 11/26/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

good point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Kickle]
    #19192037 - 11/26/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.



I hear ya.  But please answer this, Kickle:

Does it sound right to you -- "smell" right to you -- that in the year 2013 -- when humankind possesses the science necessary to send rovers to the planet Mars and to probe the most intricate mysteries of the human brain -- that not one purported "supernatural" or "miraculous" event has yet to be proven empirically and scientifically? 

Not one?

I keep returning to the Transcendental Meditation "levitation" thing, because I think it illustrates the point well.

All it will take to end this debate now and forever -- and to send skeptics like me slithering away with their tails between their legs -- is for one TM'er -- just one -- to submit to scientific testing of the alleged levitation ability in an agenda-free, impartial and highly regarded and respected scientific laboratory, and to prove his case.

You will agree, I trust, that in the year 2013, humankind possesses the equipment necessary to measure and record an act of levitation, yes?

One scientifically proven act of levitation and this entire debate is 100 percent over and done.

Finished.

For all time and with regard to all manner of alleged paranormal abilities and feats.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Kickle]
    #19192058 - 11/26/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model.



Respectfully, I think that's a bogus argument.  Essentially, an anti-science argument.

If one carefully reads the work of those who refute the claims of bona fide agenda-free scientists who have studied the paranormal, what you see there is an abiding and pervasive anti-science outlook, often bordering on conspiracy theorizing.

"Scientists have a vested interest in ensuring that their "turf" is not ruffled, so they fail to empirically establish the existence of paranormal phenomena by manipulating their own self-serving models." 

That sort of bullshit.

Truth is (assuming you respect science and the work of those who pursue it), there has not been one empirically, scientifically proven instance of a paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous event in the history of the world.  Not one.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that in light of the fact that not one person who has claimed to have seen ghosts or the Virgin Mary in the flesh or whatever -- or who has claimed to be in possession of ESP powers -- has ever been able to establish these things to the satisfaction of the worldwide scientific community -- that any of that junk is for real.

It is, in my opinion, all make-believe -- engineered by people who are making vast fortunes by playing off the hopes, fears and vulnerabilities of gullible human beings.




I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.




In life shit happens and science hasn't figure out life so they haven't figured out this shit either.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
    #19192118 - 11/26/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Scientists have been levitating objects with sound for a while now.


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