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Offlinenewtothis420
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what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in
    #19179826 - 11/23/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I am new to this any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


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OfflineSamhainJ
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: newtothis420]
    #19179838 - 11/23/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You dont incubate mushies.. i keep my jars and bags at aroumd 85°F, alot of people will say this is too high but i see exsplosive growth at this temp so im gonna keep at it...


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: SamhainJ] * 1
    #19179856 - 11/23/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SamhainJ said:
You dont incubate mushies.. i keep my jars and bags at aroumd 85°F, alot of people will say this is too high but i see exsplosive growth at this temp so im gonna keep at it...




yes you can incubate mushrooms but we're really talking about incubating mycelium during colonization(PROtip mushrooms are mycelium). Incubators are generally not recomended because any room temperature a human can deal with is fine. 85F is really hot and you'll be encouraging contams. Also mycelium makes heat as it grows so at 85F the insides of your jars would be even warmer if they didn't stall from the heat. The rate of growth actually is slower above a certain temperature. Incubators are hard to make properly and very hard to keep working within a good temperature range. It's way easier to fuck it up than get it right so often times letting your jars colonize between 65-75F in your house is by far the best way to go.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Beginners are the biggest reason NOT to use an incubator.  Internal jar temps above 82F actually slow down mycelium growth, and also stimulate contaminant molds.  If your incubator is running 81F to 84F, your internal jar temps are going to be 85 to 90, considering that glass is an insulator and mycelium produces heat as it colonizes.  Nearly all the growers who used to use incubators have now stopped.  Those who haven't have probably never tried to colonize on an open shelf at normal room temp, or they'd have stopped too. 

Wait until your jars are nearly done and your heater sticks and you find your incubator over 100F with all your jars ruined.  That will make a believer out of you.

In addition, stale air in incubators are a major cause of contamination.
RR





Don't take SamhainJ's advice unless you want to kill your mycelium. Actually I would even say don't take any of his advice at all, and if you don't believe me click on the second link in my signature and watch how he acts around here.


Edited by Trusted cuItivator (11/23/13 05:52 PM)


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Offlinesteelmonkey
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: SamhainJ]
    #19179870 - 11/23/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just so you know at 85 you are also inviting explosive bacterial growth,70-75 is a good general temp range


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19179877 - 11/23/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you want to raise the temp for colonization purposes, the simplest way is to use an oil heater and heat the room, not the jars. I do this sometimes in the frigid cold climate that is Canadian winter. I only break it out if the temp in the house is below 70. 65F is fine for colonization, but its a little slow. However I don't even need the heater anymore. 4 or more monos doing their spawn run usually brings the temp in any room up significantly, and I usually have that many going at any given time.


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OfflineOgreLokon
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19179944 - 11/23/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you're comfortable, your mycelium is comfortable


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OfflineSamhainJ
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: steelmonkey]
    #19179946 - 11/23/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What bacteria is gonna grow if your jars or bags are sterile?


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: SamhainJ]
    #19179992 - 11/23/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SamhainJ said:
What bacteria is gonna grow if your jars or bags are sterile?




Jars or bags are rarely 100% sterile. The PC run kills or damages most of the endospores but there is a possiblity that some did not die, and were only severly damaged. They can then in time germinate and contam your media. I have had this happen with p mexicana, which cannot tolerate a shake. All my wedges got stuck to one side and it took forever to reach the opposite side. After a month and a half the mycelium had almost made it, but the endospores had germinated by that time. Pissed me right off.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's been said many times that it would take 24 hours or longer at 121C to fully sterilize a jar of grains, but in reality we use 90 minutes because that's what it takes to get that window of opportunity without over-cooking our grains until they turn to mush.  We refer to this as sterilization, even though by food safety standards it isn't.
RR




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17776168#17776168

A few other links

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6711804#6711804

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17316628#17316628


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OfflineSamhainJ
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19180560 - 11/23/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I was simply stating what has worked and continues to work for me.. thats why i said many will disagree with me.. i have one room in my house that is 80-85f year round and i always incubate in this room.. only had 1 jar and 1 bag contam since moving to this house..and the bag had a pinhole in it.. its just what i do..im not forcing it on anyone else but it works great for me


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: SamhainJ]
    #19180597 - 11/23/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm having very consistent and steady growth at 79 - 80 F using frank's Titi.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19181601 - 11/24/13 07:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hate incubation if you want, but because I have no whole house heating system I just turned my whole grow room into an incubator and it definitely grows faster than before. Right now it stays between the upper 70's at night and the low 80's in the day (I try to keep it around 80-82, but can't help fluctuations do to ambient temp changes). So over multiple grows doing this I can easily say it shaves anywhere from a few days to even upwards of a week off of colonization times compared to 70-76 which is what the room was at before the cold came and I put the heater in there. I have noticed a slightly higher contam rate, but whether that's because of a bad LC or the temp I don't know, I don't particularly care though because as I see it if my jars gets contaminated because the temp is a little higher while the mycilium is still healthy then that contaminant was already in the jar and otherwise may have been spawned to bulk without my knowledge causing even more wasted resources, so I really don't see that as a downside. In the past (years ago) I've used a TiT incubator with great success as well and noticed basically the same behavior, but these days I don't see a point in building one just to shave a fews days time down. If I already had one though I can't see abandoning for the reasoning that 'it's not necessary' and I might be able to get by with unsterile procedurs.

edit: I'm also skeptical of RR's claims that a grain jars is not fully sterilized, it's been discussed on here before and the conclusion (while not absolute) was generally that endorsphores will NOT survive PCing. They can, and do, but it's not the norm. If that were the case why can I keep a grain jar for a month or two before innoculating it with just as much success? Also for canning foods most things are cooked for a lesser amount of time than we cook mushrooms and afaik the biggest reason the fda has no guidelines on canning grains is because it's difficult to can them without turning them into mush or exploding the jar, not because it's a health hazard.


Edited by krypto2000 (11/24/13 07:16 AM)


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: krypto2000]
    #19182208 - 11/24/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Jars/bags/tubs/trays should colonize @ room temperature getting ambient/indirect light.

Main pinning triggers are full colonization, FAE and Evaporation off of the substrate.

Light is a secondary pinning trigger. For tropical species temperature is not a pinning factor.

P. Cubensis are a tropical species. You could colonize at 70F and fruit at 80F with great results.

Light has been proven beneficial during all stages of mycellium growth. Mushrooms like mammals have a circadian rhythm.

You want ambient/indirect light(on a 12/12 schedule preferably) for colonization and consolidation.

You want direct/intense 6500K light on a 12/12 schedule for fruiting.

Optimal temps are mid 70s throughout the whole grow, but anywhere from 65F-80F is acceptable.

Incubation is outdated/uneeded unless temps in the range stated above cannot be kept.

The inside of the jar is always a few degrees warmer than the outside because the mycellium produces heat..mycellium tends to stall at temps above 86F , and contams thrive.

Fruiting at cooler temps tends to produce denser, meatier fruits, while fruiting at higher temps will often produce hollow, less dense stems.


Mycelium should be exposed to ambient room light from day of inoculation as has been known for many years.  Light is not a pinning trigger until after full colonization and an increase in air is given, and even then it's a secondary pinning trigger.
RR


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: krypto2000]
    #19182217 - 11/24/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If you want to raise the temp for colonization purposes, the simplest way is to use an oil heater and heat the room, not the jars.




Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Hate incubation if you want, but because I have no whole house heating system I just turned my whole grow room into an incubator.




Not sure how that's different from what I recommended in my first post to OP :shrug:

Fact is that while incubation and high temps will work for more experienced people, to advocate that to a new grower simply presents one more aspect that can go wrong when room temp would have been sufficient. OP is obviously new, and probably has enough to wrap his head around. The number of posts that go something like "help my incubator got up to 96F, and now my jars stopped growing" is staggering. I'm not hating on incubation, but its kinda like LC. Has a place in mycology, but not the best place to start for a new person nor is it neccessary.

OP I live in a cold fucking climate. There is a foot of snow on my lawn right now. I don't have an incubator. Take from that what you will.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
edit: I'm also skeptical of RR's claims that a grain jars is not fully sterilized, it's been discussed on here before and the conclusion (while not absolute) was generally that endospores will NOT survive PC ing. They can, and do, but it's not the norm. If that were the case why can I keep a grain jar for a month or two before inoculating it with just as much success?




This is such a contradictory statement that I'm not even sure its worth dissecting. Go ahead, be skeptical. I have had it happen, so I'm not skeptical anymore. Granted its not a guaranteed for every jar, probably less than a 10% chance of ocurring, but I'm not really in the habit of knocking up a master and thinking, "gee I've left this thing sit for 2 months, if the grains are not dried the fuck out, and there isn't an endospore or two left to fuck it up, this thing might actually do pretty good. IMO that's a pretty half assed approach to growing.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
afaik the biggest reason the fda has no guidelines on canning grains is because it's difficult to can them without turning them into mush or exploding the jar, not because it's a health hazard.




Did you even read the links and quotes I posted, or do you just comment on them :rolleyes:


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19182463 - 11/24/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

All the links you posted were from RR restating the exact same thing you already quoted. RR is not a god, he's not all knowing, and he's been proven wrong many times. Why would you even post multiple links that are all from the exact same source saying the same thing.

There's nothing wrong with pcing jars and shelving them until you want to use them. Maybe you have to worry about it, but I know how to use a pressure cooker so I guess that's not a problem for me. Maybe try reading the manual or something? If you keep the foil on there's no reason moisture loss should be a problem either. I haven't gone over 2 months, but I see no reason they wouldn't work in 2 years. They look and smell the exact same as the day they come out of the PCer.


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: krypto2000]
    #19182475 - 11/24/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If you keep the foil on there's no reason moisture loss should be a problem either



Foil will not stop moisture loss.

The foil gets removed after sterilization and stays off.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: PussyFart]
    #19182557 - 11/24/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

LOL, wut?! Does the PC remove it? I leave mine on until inoculation, whether that be the next day or weeks later.


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: krypto2000]
    #19182562 - 11/24/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
LOL, wut?! Does the PC remove it? I leave mine on until inoculation, whether that be the next day or weeks later.



No, you should remove it....the PC does not have arms silly....

All I am saying is there is no reason to leave it on, whether you leave it for a day or a week...the foil does nothing.

For cakes the foil gets removed right away so the dry verm layer stays dry.

For grains leaving the foil on does nothing....good or bad.....


Edited by PussyFart (11/24/13 01:04 PM)


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: krypto2000]
    #19182596 - 11/24/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well krypto, I don't have a PC, I have an AA 75x sterilizer. I can sterilize at 20 psi. Second you just said that you haven't kept a jar over 2 months but then make an assertion that they could last indefinitely? That is called talking outta your ass :shrug: When growing species that cannot be shaken, and grow slow, it can take 2 months to achieve colonization with wedges. Doing this will give you some excellent insight on things like endospore capabilities, and how long it takes for grains to dry out. Those species are my primary reason for starting to work with LC, as wedges just are not quick enough sometimes.

I never said RR is a god, but I'm willing to bet that he has more firsthand knowledge than all the people on this thread combined. Does that mean he cannot be wrong? No, but I'll take his word over your obviously uninformed opinion any day. Try actually running an experiment and having some firsthand knowledge before offering your opinion as fact over people who actually have tried it :shrug:


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: krypto2000]
    #19182684 - 11/24/13 01:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

edit: I'm also skeptical of RR's claims that a grain jars is not fully sterilized, it's been discussed on here before and the conclusion (while not absolute) was generally that endorsphores will NOT survive PCing. They can, and do, but it's not the norm. If that were the case why can I keep a grain jar for a month or two before innoculating it with just as much success? Also for canning foods most things are cooked for a lesser amount of time than we cook mushrooms and afaik the biggest reason the fda has no guidelines on canning grains is because it's difficult to can them without turning them into mush or exploding the jar, not because it's a health hazard.



Endospores can survive but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be able in normal incubation conditions. I know commercial spawn producers use longer sterilizations times or preboil the grains for a number of hours. Higher temperatures can allow sometime bacterial strains to grow that otherwise wouldn't or would only grow very slowly.

The exact result are going to be depend on how many endospores are there to begin with and the exact sterilization method. However bacteria can also get in through the filter since they're not 100% effective and in the inoculant. Even a clean agar culture can have a small amount of bacteria without it forming any colonies on the agar.


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Re: what is the best temperature to incubate mushrooms in [Re: Kizzle]
    #19182716 - 11/24/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And as for your statement about canned foods check them....they have expiry dates


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