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OfflineNoxVitae
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theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro
    #19181228 - 11/24/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hello everyone!

  So recently, this crazy thought has popped into my head. Suppose someone takes 2 or more equal length Pedro's, slices off a rib from each, all the way down, and squishes them together in order to make a jumbo Pedro. The point? Well, other than being a fun experiment, this could give you giant rootstocks for future insane grafts. Thoughts? Advice? Anyone try this yet?


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: NoxVitae]
    #19181731 - 11/24/13 08:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You should do this shortly before using the 'double pedro' as a grafting stock, 1 month max. You would like the cacti to callous together before attempting a graft if your not grafting at the same time. If you allow the cacti to grow for to long they would grow farther apart/seperate as they would still grow independently from each other.
You would need to cut the stock similar to how you mention so that the vascular rings are close enough for them to both cross the single scion. I've considered trying this but never had the time/supply to do it. You should try it and report back.
Here is a thread similar to what you mentioned.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17743672#17743672

Make sure you use enough pressure to hold the two cacti together while they callous. 'Grafting' this way will likely not influence the growth of either one another.


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THIS HAS A VERY SMALL POSSIBILITY OF BEING SUCCESSFUL.
Something that you could also try out is cutting two similar sized cacti in half diagonally then join them in the apex and core. Ideally they would be two different cacti sp. like 1 pedro and 1 bridgesii and observe the result. It would need to be new growth as old cuttings/sections would have thick cores that would not work for grafting/joining/fusing. The reason I would like the try this is in hopes of having the new grow growing 'chimera-like' with fused cells from both cacti.


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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: modern.shaman]
    #19182572 - 11/24/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Alright, I will probably attempt this later tonight when I can collect some specimens for experimentation. I would like a pachanoi/bridgesii combo, but can only get my hands on pachanoi for now. Thanks for the response and the different idea. This should be interesting!


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: NoxVitae]
    #19182887 - 11/24/13 02:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

NoxVitae be aware that the suggested I made has an extremely high chance of ending up in failure so don't attempt on your only specimens. My logic for this, however fantastical and improbable it may be, is that since the since the apex has undeveloped cells doing a vertical graft with two apex' together they may develop uniformly or even 'chimera-like'.

Rather than a complete split in half vertical which will likely result in the death of both cacti you could also attempt a L-cut then graft on top with a section the same size as the removed part. Not sure if that makes a lot of sense.


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OfflineGalidor4
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: modern.shaman]
    #19184088 - 11/24/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What if you cut them almost in half, maybe like 3/4 the way and then grafted them together. Cause if you just do one rib, won't they have separate tap roots and technically be two different cacti, connected? Where as you'd want the width of two cacti with only one tap root.


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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: Galidor4]
    #19211197 - 12/01/13 04:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm still.messing around.with the idea of how best to go about this. I have a few ideas on how to do this graft. Another idea I had was for a.triple graft.

Take a colored gymnocalycium, probably red, and a loph. Cut both in half so the vascular rings are half circles. Join them as best as possible to make one ring, and immediately graft this mashed ring onto a Pedro stock.my hope is that this craziness would result in a lopho calcium chimera or something fun like that. Thoughts?


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: NoxVitae]
    #19211207 - 12/01/13 04:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I would expect the growing points of each to terminate, and each would then go on to produce offsets.


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InvisibleUneak
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #19213898 - 12/01/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.lapshin.org/cultivar/N30/hasan-e.htm

Reposted from the chimera thread.  You should try it and update us on it, Nox!


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OfflineGalidor4
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: Uneak]
    #19220127 - 12/02/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What if you grafted a 12 in trich to a peyote stock, grew it for a year or however long. Would that trich have the alkaloid content of the peyote?


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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: Galidor4]
    #19220411 - 12/03/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No, stocks and scions seem to retain their own alkaloid profiles.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #19221582 - 12/03/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it does not appear that alkaloids cross cactus graft unions or that peyote roots play a direct role in alkaloid synthesis.

I did a pedro on peyote graft recently as an experiment (well two but one failed.) The idea is to get the rootstock to make some big fat taproots, and hopefully use the roots as cuttings that will have natural looking deep single taproots. I'm not sure whether the root cuttings would produce new heads without the help of hormones, but we'll see.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: psi]
    #19222306 - 12/03/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have been think to graft a fast grower to peyote tap root. Just for experiment and one thing would be good for scion to improve it's drought tolerance to maximum..

Anyway, maybe some day I try this. :yesnod:


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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19222466 - 12/03/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If the roots didn't have anything to do with alkaloid production, how come you can eat a peyote graft of off a non-active stock such as Pereskiopsis, and you'd feel nothing. there's no alkaloid content in the button cause Pereskiopsis isn't active. So, if the stock is something very active and you place on to it, a scion that is the equivalent a dozen maybe more buttons. Would it not take on the content of the stock, and be incredibly potent? As the peyote scion does with Pereskiopsis to become non-active altogether.


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: Galidor4]
    #19222572 - 12/03/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Roots have nothing to do with alkaloid production it takes place in the photosynthetic flesh near the surface of the cactus or perhaps the apex.

There is a report that grafted peyote are active. Two things you need to note in this is that grafted lopho are bloated with water weight so you will need more cacti since you need to consume around 30 grams dry. Also the potency is 'clone' specific similar to how different trichocereus have different potency and perhaps those that tested had weak or inactive peyote.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17047609/fpart/1/vc/1

A trichocereus pachanoi with .15% mescaline was tested to be the same content after grafted for 10 months on a trichocereus spachianus which is inactive. Confirming that grafting doesn't weaken the scion per dry weight.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19172475#19172475


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: modern.shaman]
    #19223145 - 12/03/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it seems to just be a very widely reported myth that grafts onto inactive stocks are inactive.


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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: theoretical grafting: making the super San pedro [Re: psi]
    #19225155 - 12/04/13 02:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nice link Uneak. Now we know it can be done! With winter coming around.and a shortage of supplies, I probably won't be experimemting till Spring. Got some Pedro's rooting under grow lights at the.moment, and my grafted peyote is doing well, so hopefully in a few months I.will have the raw materials to attempt something trippy.


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