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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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What they don't tell you about enlightenment
#19176447 - 11/22/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga] 1
#19176523 - 11/22/13 09:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the attraction of enlightenment is a kind of total fulfillment, in the moment. A recognition of the Reality, which is the cosmic Self or God, by becoming that, and thus having a kind of timeless experience.
Recognising you are that for "which there is no which-er" takes fear and importance out of life.
You may still have to work a job, have emotional problems etc. but these do not affect what you actually are. They are not actually happening in a certain sense. They are events in time, your Self is not an event in time.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: circastes]
#19177672 - 11/23/13 04:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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depends on your enlightenment
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: eve69]
#19177783 - 11/23/13 05:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just because you've reached enlightenment doesn't change that you are human
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Stromrider]
#19177818 - 11/23/13 06:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I spent a lot of my life thinking in Eastern yoga terms and tantra and I still don't really have an idea of enlightenment, and I'm not being funny, a state beyond all others doesn't compute to me, like say you could have a rainbow body would you want to be the only person you know with one? I think not. Live forever? Talk about endless suffering unless you can turn your feelings off. God please no I hope not!
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: eve69]
#19177832 - 11/23/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Most peoples concept of enlightenment is akin to believing in Santa and the Tooth fairy imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19177842 - 11/23/13 06:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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we find that out here though don't we
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Grapefruit
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19177844 - 11/23/13 06:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, I think that's true for a lot of people. But if you have experienced satori that does count for something at least, the only question is whether that state is possible to achieve permanently.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Grapefruit]
#19177883 - 11/23/13 07:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've been there. How can it be enlightenment if one doesn't know what it means? And to know what it means one, imo, would have to reside there at will.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19177910 - 11/23/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you can known what enlightenment means but that's not enlightenment - the pointers are towards --keeping light-- like the Tibetan monk who told HHDL that he was always in danger of hating his torturers. That sort of display of heart is enlightenment. I have a friend who studies enlightened people (the broad subject itself) -see here- www.batgap.com
-------------------- ...or something
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absols
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: eve69]
#19177958 - 11/23/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I never knew what that word is for, but now I can guess right
so I think enlightenment is meaning seeing the sources of yourself condition, so what sees you as an object thing, in logical fact, this should gives you power of being free and in knowing how your being work, when suppositely you see the sources because you reached their free identities, so they will get back while yourself condition will be differently alive from what your freedom would be a certainty when those sources are more then present then what you are, as objects sources including you
but it is not that logical fact at all, which prove how logics were all killed, and how darkness is the truth when darkness is sources ends
so being with life sources is hell, while because they are the sources without any logics, so those terms are all created as nothing randomly of free sources
enlightenment cannot be objective, so it is all a lie invented word
to say electrical white circuits forcing to enslave your freedom as being evil freedom that is never true only through powers of freedom knowledge
you could catch all kind of diseases more then any normal average body and risks encounters in real life according to your age and being in condition of everyone
it is much better to stay out of that and stop seeking enlightenment through meditations and stuff
anyway it is not even being with real sources, they are liars as freedom and use people to possess their true freedoms, and they don't care at all about any free present right, while it is all through what they programmed so dealing with you as if you are dead, not there at all
and it is never about you, it is always about using and abusing you so the thought of being eternal that way is a lie to you, and you should know this, the real you is freedom alone, when it is through objective realisations of yourself being with else, but any other freedom around even if positive to you is never about you while it kills you as free, you cannot be you the free out of living, because freedom is the true positive, you can be you out of existing and existence truth
Edited by absols (11/23/13 08:08 AM)
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Chronic7
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Grapefruit]
#19177974 - 11/23/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
Depends on which guru's you're listening to really, some of them like Buddha will say that life is suffering & everything is impermanent
How do you see it that habits can strengthen love for yourself & others? Just wondering as i find the opposite to be true
Quote:
Grapefruit said: if you have experienced satori that does count for something at least, the only question is whether that state is possible to achieve permanently.
Quote:
Icelander said: I've been there. How can it be enlightenment if one doesn't know what it means? And to know what it means one, imo, would have to reside there at will.
although i would use the term 'will' very lightly, if its true then it should be available to you all the time and you should be able to access it whenever you want, if its not true all the time then it isn't really true
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19178194 - 11/23/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Great post, Cowabunga, and great comments in this thread.
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."
The day-to-day miseries of existence do not change, we are told.
Your hemorrhoids will still itch. You will still bicker with your loved one. You will witness the decay and death of people and things that are dear to you.
But you will be filled with an inner, ever-present tranquility that will observe the heartache, see it come, and see it go.
This ability to observe while remaining in the still-point is the highest achievable spiritual state, in my opinion.
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absols
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19178335 - 11/23/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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what you are describing is submission
then peace is not an objective value, it is all about accepting the fact you are through even if it is hell and even if it is not about you or killing what you are to yourself
to me it is much more positive to react to negative and see it going then to be forced to not move to see it go a bit
what matter is freedom what the person is out of everything what it really means in negative situations
and if there is no positive to offer then it is not a positive concept of anything, then it is a lie anything in truth is something objectively positive and not dependent on your presence nor yourself to say
if you die under tortures or survived tortures, the real fact is tortures and not you
the thing is all those terms invented to abuse ignorance and conscious out of negative all life fact, like the guy instead of becoming crazy or very stupid in life, they invent that to give guys kind of personality, and you guys buy it, oohh tranquility and depth ... how cant you realize that much more really around yourself being if that is the mean
but it is not, you feel supported like with powers of some sensations, this is absurd..as if you can live all your life through sensations of others powers on you, and it is up to you to keep faking that it is surely good since you don't have to move or anything to do yourself
you are not an animal because you know, as you are aware of being like existence is real, so reality is what matter and then there is you alone that must be independent by being real in its means you cannot say it is good to keep living by sensations of others on your body, even the most stupid chick in the most pejorative sense wont accept that
Edited by absols (11/23/13 10:26 AM)
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Libertin
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: absols]
#19178449 - 11/23/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The concept of enlightenment is the thing that deters me most from Buddhism. I've really enjoyed reading about some Buddhist concepts but the idea that an individual can attain enlightenment seems literally incredible to me, i.e. NOT credible. Buddhists often say they meditate to achieve enlightenment. I ask you then, where are the enlightened monks? Has anyone since Gautama actually achieved Boddhisattva? Where's the evidence? It completely spoils Buddhism in my view.
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absols
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Libertin]
#19178513 - 11/23/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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exactly,
like everyone like to point others as being the reason of feeling down or even sick ... but no medicine nor professional help ever showed curing anyone.. so what psychic of selves is source of anything when all that sciences couldn't ever show one case healed even if most superficial suffer case
it is a lie, that is why too the more one knows the more it doesn't know, because the truth of knowledge is dark, it is based on abuse and violations of freedom truth through lies in powers
because any freedom is nothing to another, because all is basically only freedom individualities, then it is easy to start by making things worse careless about the sense that could be to try to understand the fact we share all or at least support the idea but no
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Libertin]
#19178660 - 11/23/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Libertin said: I ask you then, where are the enlightened monks? Has anyone since Gautama actually achieved Boddhisattva? Where's the evidence?
My guess is that the "enlightened monks" aren't talking about it. That's why you don't know they're there.
If someone "announces" their enlightenment to you, they're probably deep deep into some heavy samsara shit.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19180295 - 11/23/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Great post, Cowabunga, and great comments in this thread.
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."
The day-to-day miseries of existence do not change, we are told.
Your hemorrhoids will still itch. You will still bicker with your loved one. You will witness the decay and death of people and things that are dear to you.
But you will be filled with an inner, ever-present tranquility that will observe the heartache, see it come, and see it go.
This ability to observe while remaining in the still-point is the highest achievable spiritual state, in my opinion.

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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19181813 - 11/24/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Still gotta chop wood and carry water
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Comcouveflor



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: nicechrisman]
#19182567 - 11/24/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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There's a difference between chopping wood and carrying water and chopping wood and carrying water...
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Comcouveflor]
#19182849 - 11/24/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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but after all the hard work you put into becoming enlightened you owe it to yourself to use self renewing local ecosystem forest wood and to drink fresh bottled artisan water
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: eve69]
#19182925 - 11/24/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I saw a quart of water in a glass bottle and a fancy label for $3.49 at the co-op the other day. I'm sure they are saving the planet doing such. 
God save us from those who would save us.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Bill_Oreilly
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19183554 - 11/24/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
Because guru's assume you have common sense and are trying to help you escape the hell of those realities
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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Kafei
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#19185430 - 11/25/13 03:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Some gurus will flat out tell you that after enlightenment, you're still going to have to abide by society, yes that means hold a job (if you're not a successful person), and all the rest of the detritus that comes along with life.
I'd recommend Ramesh Balsekar. There's tons of videos of his lectures on YouTube. Just search his name, and pick a title that draws your attention.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19186567 - 11/25/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Most peoples concept of enlightenment is akin to believing in Santa and the Tooth fairy imo.
I listened to an old Ram Dass lecture about the time he gave Neem Karolie Baba LSD for the 2nd time because he thought that he might have thrown the tabs over his shoulder the first time. He also related that his Guru swallowed a bunch of Arsenic, which can be changed Ayurvedically into non-toxic medicine (supposedly). The Arsenic was in its raw state, which is lethal, but the Guru did not get sick or die. Now, I simply wonder on what level are these things happening. I can believe that an old Hindu Guru WAS living in an exalted state, and COULD handle 1200 mcgs of LSD. I find it VERY difficult to believe that he ate and survived eating Arsenic. I gave the book Miracle of Love to my dad to read (all about paranormal stories about Neem Karolie) and his only response was "Bubbe Maisehs," literally, 'Grandmother's story.' Was Ram Dass lying to everyone? Was Ram sass being deceived himself, but believed the deceptions? Did Neem Karolie Baba Really perform numerous feats of non-ordinary reality?
Tooth Fairy is a rather localized Anglo bit of folklore. Santa Claus, or Father Christmas as he is called in Germany and other parts of Europe is a more pervasive piece of folklore that can be traced to a legend of Saint Nicholas (placing coins in a sock for the dowry of a young woman otherwise unable to marry), and now we have these associations with Amanita muscaria culture in Siberia. If ANY of the stories that violate physics, attributed to Neem Karolie Baba are true (like bilocation), then one has to revisit dividing a couple of loaves and fish into feeding the multitudes. How true are ANY of these stories? That is the question to which we must say 'yea' or 'nay' or just suspend either judgement altogether, and these 3 choices will determine much in our lives.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#19186970 - 11/25/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Was Ram Dass lying to everyone?
Most likely imo. But it was good for business so it can be forgiven. 
For sure what we choose to believe has great impact on our life. By the time those of us who can realize it have realized it much has been lost and changing can be very difficult. Programming is everything (almost)
PS Please send me some homemade pumpkin pie.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19187396 - 11/25/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry, the pumpkin pie will be green by the time it reaches you. I'll bake one if you're coming for Thanksgiving dinner though.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#19187599 - 11/25/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Freeze it, pack it in dry ice and send it overnight. My sister used to send me venison from Michigan all the time. Have faith brother.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19187880 - 11/25/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Where are you getting this pumpkin pie fantasy from? I mean, we used to buy them, not make them. This year, no Thanksgiving dinner. No guests, no family, no friends. Dry ice in Miami? That's like a snowball in Hell.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#19188493 - 11/25/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: How true are ANY of these stories? That is the question to which we must say 'yea' or 'nay' or just suspend either judgement altogether, and these 3 choices will determine much in our lives.
You (generic "you") need not surrender your powers of intellect and discernment in order to discover truth.
There is a simple test for all current-day allegers of the miraculous and seemingly-miraculous: Submit to scientific testing.
For the guru who alleges swallowing arsenic and surviving, a simple test: Get your sacred and enlightened tush to a well-respected, agenda-free laboratory, allow the nice men and women there to hook you up to electrodes and to film you, and swallow the arsenic that has been handed to you by the agenda-free technician who is working on his PhD and would like nothing more than to be present at the world's first documented case of the "miraculous."
Same thing for the advanced TM'ers who allege the power of levitation. Submit to testing in a lab that has state-of-the-art cameras that can capture the levitation... and... presto... debate over.
Is this brain science, people?
Would not the "debate" on this stuff be over in five minutes flat -- were the guru or "levitator" to submit to this kind of testing and have the results peer-reviewed in a respected scientific journal?
What am I missing, people.
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#19188672 - 11/25/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Where are you getting this pumpkin pie fantasy from? I mean, we used to buy them, not make them. This year, no Thanksgiving dinner. No guests, no family, no friends. Dry ice in Miami? That's like a snowball in Hell.
Well it never hurts to ask.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19188681 - 11/25/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: How true are ANY of these stories? That is the question to which we must say 'yea' or 'nay' or just suspend either judgement altogether, and these 3 choices will determine much in our lives.
You (generic "you") need not surrender your powers of intellect and discernment in order to discover truth.
There is a simple test for all current-day allegers of the miraculous and seemingly-miraculous: Submit to scientific testing.
For the guru who alleges swallowing arsenic and surviving, a simple test: Get your sacred and enlightened tush to a well-respected, agenda-free laboratory, allow the nice men and women there to hook you up to electrodes and to film you, and swallow the arsenic that has been handed to you by the agenda-free technician who is working on his PhD and would like nothing more than to be present at the world's first documented case of the "miraculous."
Same thing for the advanced TM'ers who allege the power of levitation. Submit to testing in a lab that has state-of-the-art cameras that can capture the levitation... and... presto... debate over.
Is this brain science, people?
Would not the "debate" on this stuff be over in five minutes flat -- were the guru or "levitator" to submit to this kind of testing and have the results peer-reviewed in a respected scientific journal?
What am I missing, people.
Well that's where it all breaks down doesn't it. Here on this forum too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19189715 - 11/25/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
The Gurus all do say that, just not that often. It's not really true, luck and slack increase with awakening. One begins to enjoy what they do and it doesn't feel like work. Bad things happen far less often and when they do they do not feel nearly as bad. The thing that labels an emotion as "negative" still occurs, but it is recognized immediately as illusion and discounted. Habits may still be there but that's because enlightenment actually has nothing to do with "you." No amount of self-development will get one there. We just have to get in a field during a storm and wait to get stuck by lightening.
Tons of scientific tests have been and are being made into meditative brain-states and neurological correlates of consciousness. The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model. James Randi's challenge was won by a homeopathy experiment, but the experimenters knew which samples were controls. Randi complained that it wasn't 'double-blind' and without the knowledge of which were which, the experiment failed.
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Middleman]
#19191033 - 11/26/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rev. Morton said: The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model.
Respectfully, I think that's a bogus argument. Essentially, an anti-science argument.
If one carefully reads the work of those who refute the claims of bona fide agenda-free scientists who have studied the paranormal, what you see there is an abiding and pervasive anti-science outlook, often bordering on conspiracy theorizing.
"Scientists have a vested interest in ensuring that their "turf" is not ruffled, so they fail to empirically establish the existence of paranormal phenomena by manipulating their own self-serving models."
That sort of bullshit.
Truth is (assuming you respect science and the work of those who pursue it), there has not been one empirically, scientifically proven instance of a paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous event in the history of the world. Not one.
It's totally ridiculous to believe that in light of the fact that not one person who has claimed to have seen ghosts or the Virgin Mary in the flesh or whatever -- or who has claimed to be in possession of ESP powers -- has ever been able to establish these things to the satisfaction of the worldwide scientific community -- that any of that junk is for real.
It is, in my opinion, all make-believe -- engineered by people who are making vast fortunes by playing off the hopes, fears and vulnerabilities of gullible human beings.
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19191492 - 11/26/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
I would imagine an enlightened being wouldn't waste much mental energy on these things though. I think we all have to experience them, but there's a difference between experiencing and clinging.
And I don't think you have to work long shitty hours to survive. You have to work long shitty hours to survive if you choose a shitty job with long hours. ..And I imagine an enlightened person wouldn't have this mindset of "wanting to survive"
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Kickle
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty] 2
#19191666 - 11/26/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Rev. Morton said: The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model.
Respectfully, I think that's a bogus argument. Essentially, an anti-science argument.
If one carefully reads the work of those who refute the claims of bona fide agenda-free scientists who have studied the paranormal, what you see there is an abiding and pervasive anti-science outlook, often bordering on conspiracy theorizing.
"Scientists have a vested interest in ensuring that their "turf" is not ruffled, so they fail to empirically establish the existence of paranormal phenomena by manipulating their own self-serving models."
That sort of bullshit.
Truth is (assuming you respect science and the work of those who pursue it), there has not been one empirically, scientifically proven instance of a paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous event in the history of the world. Not one.
It's totally ridiculous to believe that in light of the fact that not one person who has claimed to have seen ghosts or the Virgin Mary in the flesh or whatever -- or who has claimed to be in possession of ESP powers -- has ever been able to establish these things to the satisfaction of the worldwide scientific community -- that any of that junk is for real.
It is, in my opinion, all make-believe -- engineered by people who are making vast fortunes by playing off the hopes, fears and vulnerabilities of gullible human beings.
I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Kickle]
#19191739 - 11/26/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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good point.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Kickle]
#19192037 - 11/26/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.
I hear ya. But please answer this, Kickle:
Does it sound right to you -- "smell" right to you -- that in the year 2013 -- when humankind possesses the science necessary to send rovers to the planet Mars and to probe the most intricate mysteries of the human brain -- that not one purported "supernatural" or "miraculous" event has yet to be proven empirically and scientifically?
Not one?
I keep returning to the Transcendental Meditation "levitation" thing, because I think it illustrates the point well.
All it will take to end this debate now and forever -- and to send skeptics like me slithering away with their tails between their legs -- is for one TM'er -- just one -- to submit to scientific testing of the alleged levitation ability in an agenda-free, impartial and highly regarded and respected scientific laboratory, and to prove his case.
You will agree, I trust, that in the year 2013, humankind possesses the equipment necessary to measure and record an act of levitation, yes?
One scientifically proven act of levitation and this entire debate is 100 percent over and done.
Finished.
For all time and with regard to all manner of alleged paranormal abilities and feats.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Kickle]
#19192058 - 11/26/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Rev. Morton said: The paranormal cannot be "proven" due to it's nature - it does not "normally" happen and thus does not fit into the reproducible reductionist model.
Respectfully, I think that's a bogus argument. Essentially, an anti-science argument.
If one carefully reads the work of those who refute the claims of bona fide agenda-free scientists who have studied the paranormal, what you see there is an abiding and pervasive anti-science outlook, often bordering on conspiracy theorizing.
"Scientists have a vested interest in ensuring that their "turf" is not ruffled, so they fail to empirically establish the existence of paranormal phenomena by manipulating their own self-serving models."
That sort of bullshit.
Truth is (assuming you respect science and the work of those who pursue it), there has not been one empirically, scientifically proven instance of a paranormal, supernatural, or miraculous event in the history of the world. Not one.
It's totally ridiculous to believe that in light of the fact that not one person who has claimed to have seen ghosts or the Virgin Mary in the flesh or whatever -- or who has claimed to be in possession of ESP powers -- has ever been able to establish these things to the satisfaction of the worldwide scientific community -- that any of that junk is for real.
It is, in my opinion, all make-believe -- engineered by people who are making vast fortunes by playing off the hopes, fears and vulnerabilities of gullible human beings.
I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.
In life shit happens and science hasn't figure out life so they haven't figured out this shit either.
-------------------- ...or something
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19192118 - 11/26/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Scientists have been levitating objects with sound for a while now.
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#19192135 - 11/26/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: Scientists have been levitating objects with sound for a while now.
That's not "paranormal."
That's a physical phenomenon that can be replicated and explained without the need for hocus-pocus pseudo-spiritual bullshit.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19192202 - 11/26/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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actually it is pretty 'parahormal' because outside of my studio objects don't levitate from sound alone... screaming bitches yes, but not sounds alone....
before real parahormal experiences all radio stations tune in all for a sudden and it's like Savanna is screaming in orgasm on fm radio
-------------------- ...or something
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty] 1
#19193595 - 11/26/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Kickle said: I've experienced plenty of odd occurrences that would not be applicable to the scientific method. They weren't predictable nor replicable. That's just the way it goes in life. Some things are not predictable, some things are not replicable. These are indeed outside the bounds of science. Science cannot quantify human experience in whole and to point that out is not anti-science but realistic in the utmost IMO.
I hear ya. But please answer this, Kickle:
Does it sound right to you -- "smell" right to you -- that in the year 2013 -- when humankind possesses the science necessary to send rovers to the planet Mars and to probe the most intricate mysteries of the human brain -- that not one purported "supernatural" or "miraculous" event has yet to be proven empirically and scientifically?
Not one?
I keep returning to the Transcendental Meditation "levitation" thing, because I think it illustrates the point well.
All it will take to end this debate now and forever -- and to send skeptics like me slithering away with their tails between their legs -- is for one TM'er -- just one -- to submit to scientific testing of the alleged levitation ability in an agenda-free, impartial and highly regarded and respected scientific laboratory, and to prove his case.
You will agree, I trust, that in the year 2013, humankind possesses the equipment necessary to measure and record an act of levitation, yes?
One scientifically proven act of levitation and this entire debate is 100 percent over and done.
Finished.
For all time and with regard to all manner of alleged paranormal abilities and feats.
While some claims certainly would fall into the purview of science the majority of what I personally have experienced and store in my unsolved mysteries file do not. And one has to keep in mind that the scientific method is not solely observation. A doctor may witness a recovery that he cannot explain with his current knowledge, for example, but this doesn't mean much to any sensible person. The scientific method has to have some ground to stand on. Some guess as to the mechanism(s) at work before any sort of experiment can be designed.
In most cases involving an unexplained phenomena that means guessing its a hoax and testing for the ways it could be hoaxed. And that's what comes out. Because its the only way to get at potential unknowns. The unexplained cases remain unexplained and will not convince any skeptical individual of much. but IMO its silly to default to hoax when it is genuinely unexplained. I see that all the time however. And if one is compelled to guess, why not? But I consider it wiser and healthier not to make up a story when it isn't there.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19193596 - 11/26/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Once science has proven something, it is no longer paranormal. Electricity used to be paranormal, so was gravity and things like radio waves, etc.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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soldatheero
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: nicechrisman] 1
#19194151 - 11/26/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah that is exactly it. What science can or cannot prove cannot always used as a criteria to define what is real. This is because scientific method is limited to proper instrumentation and the limits of human conception. It would be ignorant to assume that the whole of nature is not much bigger than what we can perceived with our own senses and the extension of those senses of which are our technologies.
You know before the microscope we could be having this conversation about the existence of germs and one living at that time could claim that a person must be insane to believe in "germs" which have no scientific hard evidence or "proof" and cannot be proven in a laboratory.
How is that any different from someone today claiming a phenomenon does not exist simply because it cannot be known scientifically?
You really think our science of today has pierced through all the secrets of matter and the material world? You know there is really nothing scientific about ignoring ones own ignorance. Instead of making assumptions about how reality functions and making firm decisions about what is possible and what is impossible one should cautiously observed what is actually taking place in the life. IMO it is unscientific to ignore any phenomenon which is claimed to be experienced by masses of people since it is ignoring empirical evidence.
The way I see it our science cannot control the happenings of reality for the cause of all phenomenon is still yet far beyond us.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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MotherNaturesSon
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19195272 - 11/27/13 07:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
How do you know that?
 Do you feel "enlightened", sir?
Or
is it that these conditions, after years of trying, allow you to feel like you are even though you don't really feel any different?
--------------------
Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII: "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." "The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
#19195278 - 11/27/13 07:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: nicechrisman]
#19195966 - 11/27/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
nicechrisman said: Once science has proven something, it is no longer paranormal. Electricity used to be paranormal, so was gravity and things like radio waves, etc.
Exactly.
So all I'm asking is for ONE "paranormal" event to be conclusively established by a group of individuals who have not surrendered their innate powers of intellect and discernment (i.e., scientists).
ONE scientifically confirmed event, and this debate will be over and finished forever.
Scientifically confirm ONE case of levitation. Or ONE case of a "ghost" sighting. Or ONE case of ESP. Etc. etc.
Oh my fuckin' god... is this asking for too fuckin' much?
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19196060 - 11/27/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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illusory practice illusory way illusory enlightenment illusory beings illusory suffering
"Let go. Let be. See through everything and be free."
"breath by breath, let go of fear, expectation, anger, regret, craving, frustration, fatigue. Let go of the need for approval. Let go of old judgments and opinions. Die to all of that, and fly free. Soar in the freedom of desirelessness."
"breath by breath, forgive others. Forgive those from the past-those with whom you no longer have contact, as well as those who are still around you. Forgive yourself. Accept others for what they are. Accept yourself totally. Let go and let be."
"Get used to evolving, transforming, passing on without resistance, without clinging and attachment. Breath by breath, let go. Let all this illusory, dreamlike phenomena pass by."
"Let go of any attempts to control the mind. With each exhalation, let it go. Push the clutch of spiritual detachment and disengage your habitual gears. With each exhalation, let go of one more thing-whatever comes to mind; a sensation, an emotion, a feeling, a relationship, a person, a fear, a possession. Breath by breath, fleeting moment by fleeting moment-simply let go."
"everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn and undying natural mind."
"let everything proceed effortlessly, transparently. Let go of control, manipulation, and judgment."
Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das
Edited by Sse (11/27/13 11:45 AM)
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
#19196130 - 11/27/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: "Let go. Let be. See through everything and be free."
Buddhists speak long and eloquently of the beauty and power of the ability to discern.
Do not surrender your innate powers of discernment.
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19196190 - 11/27/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree. I think letting go is an act of discernment as well
"Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality; Rely on the meaning, not just on the words; Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one; Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgmental mind."
Four Reliances - Tibetan book of the dead
"The Fourth Reliance is that we should rely on the insight of looking deeply rather than on differentiation and discrimination."
"we can rely on discriminative as well as nondiscriminative wisdom"
The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by thich nhat hanh
Edited by Sse (11/27/13 12:21 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
#19196390 - 11/27/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: I agree. I think letting go is an act of discernment as well
I think we must never let go of the search for veracity.
We can quibble over whether this "search" is itself a form of attachment, but the search is essential for our survival and must not be surrendered.
You cannot exist as a living, breathing organism without challenging false assumptions. You cannot, for example, eat a poisonous mushroom handed to you on the basis that your concern for things poisonous and things not poisonous is, itself, a form of attachment.
Believers in the supernatural and paranormal are handing us, if you will, poisonous mushrooms.
We must not be silent and we must not surrender our innate powers of discernment.
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Sse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19196422 - 11/27/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good points, completely agree
for a while now I've been viewing the saying "cling to nothing" literally. Definitely attached to nothing
im with ya, wise discernment is bread and butter.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
#19196616 - 11/27/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"You cannot, for example, eat a poisonous mushroom handed to you on the basis that your concern for things poisonous and things not poisonous is, itself, a form of attachment."
That example imo is a part of seeing the reality of things. Uncolored by personal feelings/opinions it is still poisonous, anything extra added to the appearance would be unnecessary delusion(human creation)-clinging to fear, worry, anxiety etc.
Seeing things as they are/discernment doesn't have to involve straying from one-pointedness. Attachment can remain on nothingness(uncreated/unelaborated/appearance/as is) while facing circumstance by circumstance with wisdom/equanimity.
Edited by Sse (11/27/13 01:54 PM)
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
#19196628 - 11/27/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Reaching enlightenment still makes you complain? I doubt this definition of enlightenment.
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Sse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icyus]
#19196657 - 11/27/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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only if you want to :p
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icyus]
#19196779 - 11/27/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icyus said: Reaching enlightenment still makes you complain? I doubt this definition of enlightenment.
Oh, absolutely "the enlightened" complain. It's not by any means a radical understanding of "enlightenment."
Great sages throughout the ages -- those most agree would meet the definition of "enlightened" -- were great complainers.
"Complaining" is one way human beings make change happen.
Without change, there is stagnancy. And with stagnancy, there is no new life.
"Enlightened complaining" is good.
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19196836 - 11/27/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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sounds like enlightenment is a bunch of nonsense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19196921 - 11/27/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: sounds like enlightenment is a bunch of nonsense. 
Only if we understand it as an elitist and "special" state of being.
There are several people in my personal universe whom I consider "enlightened," and know what? -- they never, ever use the word "enlightenment." In fact, they never even talk about the shit we talk about in this forum.
There are very aware and very mindful people all around us.
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Libertin
Absurdist


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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19197036 - 11/27/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Icelander said: sounds like enlightenment is a bunch of nonsense. 
Only if we understand it as an elitist and "special" state of being.
There are several people in my personal universe whom I consider "enlightened," and know what? -- they never, ever use the word "enlightenment." In fact, they never even talk about the shit we talk about in this forum.
There are very aware and very mindful people all around us.
Hmm... enlightenment seems like a slippery concept. How do you recognise it? Am I enlightened? How would I know? I guess I'm not because if I was then I would 'just know'.
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maddad
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: nicechrisman]
#19197088 - 11/27/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
nicechrisman said: Still gotta chop wood and carry water
Very well said. The Tao Te Ching was a huge influence on me.
Enlightenment is not a state of being that you achieve, or another plane of existence. To me it is understanding your role in this universe, in the here and now. That is what we are all after I assume? To some day find the place where we belong infinitely, in our own minds. What ruins Buddhism for me is that the teachings of the Buddha are to follow your own path, but instead a religious practice was put into place. And now everyone is stuck on his path. The thing is not to get hung up on tradition and methods. Find what works for YOU! Everything will fall into place.
-------------------- I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic


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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19197137 - 11/27/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
"before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water... after enlightenment chop wood, carry water." -ancient proverb
enlightenment is unobstructed perception not some magic that will fix all of your problems and make life a breeze, if you were expecting that than you were chasing an illusion from the beginning.
The ability to take responsibility for your life and the circumstances you find yourself in is a step in the right direction.
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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all this beauty
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Libertin]
#19197338 - 11/27/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Libertin said: Hmm... enlightenment seems like a slippery concept. How do you recognise it? Am I enlightened? How would I know? I guess I'm not because if I was then I would 'just know'. 
I suspect you would not "know it" in a conventional, intellectual sense. Your actions and deeds, however, would reflect it.
Ever have a stretch in your life when things just fell into place, and even the shitty stuff worked out in the end? When you felt like you were "in the groove"? When your "pulse" seemed in sync with the pulse of the universe?
If yes, then you've experienced "enlightenment."
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Deviate
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#19199102 - 11/28/13 01:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
I don't understand, why would you think that you wouldn't need to have a job?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
#19201753 - 11/28/13 05:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Who needs a job when you've ascended into the 5th dimension?
--------------------
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
#19201763 - 11/28/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: The gurus don't tell you that you will still need to have a job and work long hours if you want to survive They don't tell you that shitty stuff will still happen to you all the time You will still experience loss, pain, humiliation and other negative emotions
You may not be able to change lifelong habits The upside is that these things will only strengthen the love you have for yourself and others
Just my 2 cents
I don't understand, why would you think that you wouldn't need to have a job?
cause jobs are just an illusion of maya, maaaaan.
And da gurus get to sit on their asses all day doing jack shit.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty] 1
#19202013 - 11/28/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
nicechrisman said: Once science has proven something, it is no longer paranormal. Electricity used to be paranormal, so was gravity and things like radio waves, etc.
Exactly.
So all I'm asking is for ONE "paranormal" event to be conclusively established by a group of individuals who have not surrendered their innate powers of intellect and discernment (i.e., scientists).
ONE scientifically confirmed event, and this debate will be over and finished forever.
Scientifically confirm ONE case of levitation. Or ONE case of a "ghost" sighting. Or ONE case of ESP. Etc. etc.
Oh my fuckin' god... is this asking for too fuckin' much? 
I saw a show where they attached this machine to a cats head and they were able to make out a fuzzy picture. This was years ago. We need technology to record the subjective experience and tools to probe the mind. That is where this is happening.
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Sse
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: all this beauty]
#19208258 - 11/30/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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One instant of total awareness is one instant of perfect freedom and enlightenment.
-The Wisdom Deity, Manjusri
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Allisterem
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Sse]
#19229741 - 12/05/13 12:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The enlightened folks I know cannot be touched or influenced by poisonous emotions. They examine all harmful actions with a clear mind.
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Icelander
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Allisterem]
#19229813 - 12/05/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sounds positively other worldly.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19229841 - 12/05/13 02:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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viktor
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Allisterem]
#19230023 - 12/05/13 04:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Allisterem said: The enlightened folks I know cannot be touched or influenced by poisonous emotions. They examine all harmful actions with a clear mind.
Your enlightened folks are more enlightened than my enlightened folks, then.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Allisterem
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Icelander]
#19235905 - 12/06/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Sounds positively other worldly. 
That's the best part about it, they're very worldly. The ones who talk of "5th dimensions and love love love and light brothers and sisters!" are worlds apart.
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Allisterem
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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: viktor]
#19235912 - 12/06/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think the definition of "Enlightened" has been stretched so much as to be meaningless.
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Hierophant
Ritualistic Mystic


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Re: What they don't tell you about enlightenment [Re: Allisterem] 1
#19245024 - 12/08/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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the only definition of enlightenment that matters is your own, reinvent it to suit your highest concept of yourself and work towards actualizing whatever that may be.
-------------------- There is a golden book kept in my heart and guarded by my soul, written in Divine Light and bound with the veins of the Earth.
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