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OfflineValyr
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Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate?
    #19170796 - 11/21/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey all. I got a tub of coir/verm/coffee thats 2 days old. Cracked the lid just to get a look in and check temp inside the tub and noticed a moderate/strong fermentation smell like a bottle of cheap wine lol. Normal? Cant say that i remembered the smell from last time but this is only my second tub and i dont think i actually cracked the first one open before full colonization.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19170817 - 11/21/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

How did you prepare the bulk substrate?

Anything but a fresh mushroom smell is not good.


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Offlinemastercultivator
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19170842 - 11/21/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeast contam.  Might have been in the spawn.  See what happens.  Might be prone to a secondary contaminant infection.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: mastercultivator]
    #19171010 - 11/21/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I hydrated the coir with boiling water like in damions elementary coir tek but just the coir. Let sit for several hours then added 1qt verm 1qt spent coffee grounds. Put into two large oven bags placed in pot with water, braught to boil, removed from heat, covered and let sit for 90 minutes. Took out after that (meat thermometers then read 145 degrees or so) placed into bulk tub and let cool further till cool enough to add spawn.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19171027 - 11/21/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the spawn smelled great. just like it was suppose to and i dont expect the great mushie smell just yet as colonization of the substrate has just begun but am worried lol. Id just wait and see but i know sometimes this crap can be harmfull to your health lol.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19171041 - 11/21/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Valyr said:
I hydrated the coir with boiling water like in damions elementary coir tek but just the coir. Let sit for several hours then added 1qt verm 1qt spent coffee grounds. Put into two large oven bags placed in pot with water, braught to boil, removed from heat, covered and let sit for 90 minutes. Took out after that (meat thermometers then read 145 degrees or so) placed into bulk tub and let cool further till cool enough to add spawn.



Your substrate is contaminated because you failed to properly pasteurize it.

Coffee must be properly pasteurized.

Bringing the water to a boil, and letting it sit for 90 minutes, checking the temp afterwards is not proper.

Proper pasteurization is keeping the core between 140 and 170F for 60 to 90 minutes.

This is what fucked you....start over following a descent tek like this:

Frank's Simple Coir/Verm Tek

Frank's Proper Pasteurization Tek 3.0


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19171146 - 11/21/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

K. I was actually trying to do that but freaked lol. The core temp wasnt raising (atleast not on my meat thermomemters wich the low temp is 120)and the water was boiling so i was afraid of damaging the substrate so killed the heat and covered following a bunch of things ive read and videos ive seen doing it that way.

Thanks for the responses guys. Its much appreciated :smile:


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19171559 - 11/21/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A good digital thermometer is perhaps one of the best investments you can make in your kitchen.  I bought mine for twenty bucks at Wal-Mart and use it almost every time I cook now, whether I've got chili, custard or coir/vermiculite substrate in the pot.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19172881 - 11/21/13 10:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I can see im going to want one :smile:. Ahwell. Live and learn right? I think probably the day this hobby stops being a learning experience is the day I drop the hobby so guess it works out nicely :smile:. Thanks again for the advice.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19173147 - 11/21/13 11:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The thing is, very little is known about mycology right now.  They're still doing genetic studies to find out if things we thought were one species are actually two, and vice versa.  Even as far as cultivation of psychoactive species goes, there will be more than enough for you to beat your head against the wall about for the rest of your life.  :wink:


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19173307 - 11/22/13 01:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Valyr said:
K. I was actually trying to do that but freaked lol. The core temp wasnt raising (atleast not on my meat thermomemters wich the low temp is 120)and the water was boiling so i was afraid of damaging the substrate so killed the heat and covered following a bunch of things ive read and videos ive seen doing it that way.

Thanks for the responses guys. Its much appreciated :smile:




Only way I can see your core temp staying below 120 and having boiling water is:
1. Your 120 is 120 degrees celcius instead of farnheight
2. Your thermometer is broken or not the right tool for the job (maybe it has a longer reaction time)

Soooo....

Candy thermometer!... Got mine for 3$. Ranges up to 200 degrees

Never go over 180 for pasturization or you will kill the bacterias that you need.

Water boils at 212... Sooooo

Good luck, hope I helped


--------------------
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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: jpack666]
    #19174739 - 11/22/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nah its in fahrenheit :smile:. Yeah i thought it might be broken aswell so i stuck it right in the water and the temp gage shot up. Only thing i can think is maybe i need to do smaller bags of substrate thusly raising the ratio of water in the pot and starting at a lower stove setting aswell giving the thermal properties longer to penetrate the substrate before the water reaches boiling point.

All is moot anyways cause i think im just gonna go buy a old milk pasteurizer or something lol. I live in dairy country so there not hard to find. Never seen one myself but friends tell me it should work nicely :smile:


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19174897 - 11/22/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Off topic but you don't want water to boil when pasteurizing.... You must never go over 180... And the boiling point is 212.

You do want to rise the temp slowly like you said though, to make sure your water isn't hotter than what the thermometer is showing... In the tek I use, I keep the oven top at mid level, even lower once it reaches 170.

And if this can help, I work with poo on every grow... Sometimes I get a weird smell and sometimes i don't... I tend to keep an open mind though... In the end, it is poo with live bacteria, it won't smell like poo, but it will smell... That's for sure (especially before full colonization).

For instance, I'm currently experimenting with poo petris... Pasturized, not sterilized. Most are doing great, nothing is contamed, but don't stick your nose in that box lol, it reeks


--------------------
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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: jpack666]
    #19175419 - 11/22/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've had that smell before after full colonization of the substrate and it still fruited fine, but I wouldn't expect it to. As others have said though not properly pasteurizing your coffee is probably what did it, I don't use coffee anymore as everytime I've tried it I get a contamination of some sort.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19175660 - 11/22/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Valyr said:
All is moot anyways cause i think im just gonna go buy a old milk pasteurizer or something lol. I live in dairy country so there not hard to find. Never seen one myself but friends tell me it should work nicely :smile:




Do this thing and post many pictures, please!


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19175972 - 11/22/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well i havent dumped it yet and dont think im going too. Its only been 3 days and the mycelium is spreading nicely through the substrate. I have mine in a clear tote so I can see it working its magic (though i keep it in a dark heated closet cause ive heard both yes and no on whether light is good for colonization). Other than the fermented smell (wich is a bit weaker now i think) I see no signs (visible) of contamination. I dont have another batch of spawn ready for the tub anyways so may aswell wait and see.

It seems to me that doing it in like a cloth bag or something so that the substrate itself is actually immersed would be the easiest way to control the temp of water and substrate but i really dont like the idea of having to let my substrate drain a few days before use. Not that im impatient just that it seems to me that would be 3 days for contams to take hold before introducing my spawn. I like to immediately storm the beeches so to speak with spawn so that any crap still left from the pasteurization process still doesnt stand a chance just cause its so overwhelmed by the good stuff :smile:.

When I get one (milk pasteurizer) I will make a tek out of it lol. Probably be a few months though before making another investment like that. Plus its winter and I dont wanna trudge around farms and barns in the snow lol.


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InvisibleOneiricOutsider
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19176049 - 11/22/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Since improperly pasteurized coffee can lead to contaminations, would one get the same results using diluted coffee water instead? Are the coffee grounds better for some reason?


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: OneiricOutsider]
    #19177902 - 11/23/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You probably would still get a contaminantion, but maybe not, I don't know. Coffee grounds are likely better simply because it's more nutritious. If you're just going to brew some coffee you're only get water soluble nutrients and leaving the whole bulk matter behind. I would advise against anyone doing anything related to coffee without proper pastuerization and without first having a successful bulk grow minus the coffee.


Edited by krypto2000 (11/23/13 07:28 AM)


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #19178260 - 11/23/13 10:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I would have said the same thing. Though I think using coffee in place of the water to bring the substrate to feild capacity would technically be ok and still add some nutes, 95% of them are still going to be left in the grinds.

And ofcourse as I have learned..... Always proper pasteurization lol.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19179038 - 11/23/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know, have you ever left coffee sitting in a pot? Ime it molds just as quickly as coffee, about 3 or 4 days and I'll have some white or green shit floating on top of some room tempature coffee.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #19182382 - 11/24/13 12:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Never done it. Dont drink coffee myself. But I would probably do it just the same as grounds. I would assume to never use grounds that have sat. This just gives it a chance to grow mold or something. When I did it I just brewed up a bunch of pots of coffee and threw the coffee out till I had a quart of grinds. Then immediately pasteurize. ( I did a bit more research and indeed it is suggested amongst many trusted cultivators that you should not use anything old. Use fresh grinds or coffee and its 50/50 on whether or not to dry the grinds first. I wouldnt. Doesnt make sense to me to dry something out just to wet it again lol.)

As far as using coffee goes I know frank (trusted cultivator) uses a pint of fresh coffee in the water he simmers his wbs in. Then ofcourse after all of that and the wbs is dried it gets sterilized in a pressure cooker so maybe this would be the phase to try it at instead of bulk substrate :smile:.

I know after this learning experience and lots of more reading Im backing out of using grinds at all for the moment. I have enough other stuff to perfect before I add more challenge :smile:. Just gonna get a bit more experience under my belt before trying again.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19195613 - 11/27/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ok so its been seven days and the mycellium seems to be continuing to grow well. The fermentation smell seems to have subsided or atleast if its still there at all I cant really tell.

Upon a visual inspection of the tub however I did spot a couple things that look like they may be metabolites to me. Ill post some pics at the bottom but who knows maybe I got lucky and the myc actually beat back whatever the heck it was that I had in there :smile:.





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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19195655 - 11/27/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The metabolites are probably because it's fighting something off, hopefully just bacteria or something. Good luck man, keep us updated.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #19203344 - 11/29/13 01:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Uh ohhhh. Got something here.




Second one is just to give a size ratio really. Its in the lower left hand corner. What do you think? Cobweb? Humicola?

If cobweb ive heard you can treat with hydrogen peroxide. How?


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OfflineTheApprentice
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #19204008 - 11/29/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I don't know, have you ever left coffee sitting in a pot? Ime it molds just as quickly as coffee, about 3 or 4 days and I'll have some white or green shit floating on top of some room tempature coffee.



:like:


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19204211 - 11/29/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What makes you think it's not myc? I really can't tell from the pic. Looks too thick to be cobweb to me. If it were you can just mist it with h202, I believe full strength, but do a search to be sure. I wouldn't try to do that though unless someone confirms it's cobweb, but I would say not.

edit: and by full strength I mean whatever it comes as in the bottle, it's probably 35% h202 or something like that.


Edited by krypto2000 (11/29/13 09:53 AM)


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #19204221 - 11/29/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah thats what Ive read aswell. Only thing that makes me think cobweb and not myc is its grey instead of white.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19204317 - 11/29/13 10:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It does look a bit gray now that I'm looking at it, but part of me thinks it's just because it's not particularly thick. It even appears to have rhizomorphic growth near the edges, from about 11o'clock all the way to 5 or 6 o'clock. From looking at the pic it appears to be the same type of growth that is on the right side as well as the bottom right of that same pic, but it could just be the pic and/or lighting. Do those spots look the same to you in person? How fast did that growth come on? If it's rather sudden then it's very likely a contaminant (as in from nearly nothing to that in 2 or 3 days), but if it seems to be holding pace with everything else I'd think it's just myc.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #19204401 - 11/29/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It was a few days at most. Last time I opened the tub that area was not colonized at all and then three days later I opened it again to take a look and saw that. However as far as growth speed goes.. I had way more pure white growth in that time span that grey spot. Like the top of the substrate was showing hardly any white (maybe 8%) to what the pic above looks like in 3 days.

The edges do look rhizomorphic to me aswell and upon closer inspection  in the tub i see many other spots where there is this gray fuzz looking rhizomorphic throughout the tub but none anywhere near in size yet. Mostly just little bits tending to be on the edges of white mycellium or forming bridges between two different clumps of myc.

My myc is growing kinda weird this time aswell cause (and i dont know why or how) for some reason I didnt make a lvl feild with the top of the substrate this time. Its all valleys and mounds and I even got a bunch on the sides of my tub. I really dont know how the heck i did that and am quite embarrassed by the sloppy-ness. I must have been stoned or something.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19204540 - 11/29/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well again I'll say it *looks* ok to me, but from nothing to that in a few days or less is a bit concerning. Also I notice that giant bare spot in the center of your tub, ime that can often be caused by too much moisture, it will wick up the sides and then drip down the center hampering myc growth and encouraging contaminants. Whether that's what's happening or it's just mixed inconsistently I couldn't tell you just from the pics alone.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #19204665 - 11/29/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I cant seem to get a handle on friggin moisture lol. The substrate was actually dry when i started too. I used 4 quarts of water for 1 brick coir, 1 quart verm and 1qt coffee grounds. It was NOT at feild capacity when i pasteurized and spawned it. I could squeeze it hard and get maybe a drop. But still I get tons of moisture build up and dripping like you said. I did last time too so thats why I used less water this time but still going on. Its also pooling in places which is bad. Eh... I dunno what to do lol. I think maybe im not mixing it enough. I mean it all felt the same moisture wise when I was mixing it up but ive read it takes people like fifteen minutes to properly mix there substrate. It didnt take me anywhere near that. Maybe 5 minutes. Tops. Ill try mixing for atleast ten next time.


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19205560 - 11/29/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Still nobody that can label this?


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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19208300 - 11/30/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well, its turned back to white. It consolidated itself so there are now less "strands" and its white. Friggin weird lol. Still havin a little trouble getting that center to colonize though. Was thinking of adding a bit more spawn but that'll throw off my ratio for the next batch of bulk.

I did remove the heating pad though that I had been using. I learned that they cause that problem alot (thanks Krypt) so now I just have a ceramic heater in the room.


Edited by Valyr (11/30/13 11:58 AM)


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19211004 - 12/01/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You need to properly pasteurize your coffee, and even then it can cause contams if you don't add lime to up the PH.

The issue is not moisture content but contamination.

Heating pads are awful and so are ceramic heaters.

Use an oil-filled radiant heater for heating your grow room.

Temps from 65-80F are fine for bulk.


--------------------

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OfflineValyr
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19211359 - 12/01/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Cool thanks Frank :smile:.

Can you say why ceramic heaters are awefull? Not that Im not gonna go get a oil fill rig anyways cause its probably more cost efficient but just curiouse. Is it because of the air currents?


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: Valyr]
    #19211596 - 12/01/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't like ceramic heaters because they have a fan and heat the room very unevenly. The fan usually comes on when the heat comes on and goes off when the heat goes off.

I noticed the heaters with fans dry out the room faster than radiant heaters too

Same thing with coil heaters.

I like the oil filled radiators because the oil stays warm even when the heat goes off. This makes it a thermal mass and heats the room evenly and makes it a constant heat source.

I put my heater on the other side of the room from my tubs and jars. This means the oil may need to be a little warmer than the room on the other side. On really cold days, I have to turn the heat up slightly.

I don't like the ones with temperature settings where you just click the temperature. I like the ones with the dial that can be fine tuned. That's because the thermostat measures the oil temperature, not the room temperature.

I have a thermometer near my tubs and jars and go by that, not what the dial on the heater says.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19211894 - 12/01/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I suspect Franks reasoning is that they dry the room out quicker, but I don't see a problem with that, to me the faster the substrate evaporates the more FAE, the better your flushes, etc. Worst case you'll have to stuff your holes tigher and/or mist more often.


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OfflinePeloefuego
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Re: Fermentation smell coming from bulk substrate? [Re: PussyFart]
    #25400402 - 08/20/18 10:15 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

I did a perfect pasteurization of my substrate for 90min,  but it also started smelling fermented-like after the second day.
My substrate is crimped oats/verm/coffee and yeast.
This is the second time this has happened to me. I dont know what am I doing wrong. Please help.
Also, the first time I tried this substrate everything went perfect with two big flushes.


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