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Ara16w
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Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC?
#19170691 - 11/21/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Long story short, the PC I bought isn't big enough to hold quarts jars (all I could afford) and I made this discovery after cooking some whole grain brown rice. I do have a large canner that doesn't hold pressure so I loaded up the jars with the rice and am currently steaming them for 90 minutes.
If one can get away without using a PC for the PF tek, is it not feasible that whole grains should also work?
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PussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19170711 - 11/21/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: If one can get away without using a PC for the PF tek, is it not feasible that whole grains should also work?
Only if steamed for about 8 hours.....otherwise grains require a PC.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19170758 - 11/21/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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So what's the difference? What makes ground brown rice so magical?
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PussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19170766 - 11/21/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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No endospores.....
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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wildernessjunkie
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19170771 - 11/21/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
the PC I bought isn't big enough to hold quarts jars
Pint jars will work just fine as well.
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Ara16w
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Unfortunately, I bought a dozen wide mouth quart jars for this. Most of the jars I have are quarts. All but a few of my pints are currently holding LC.
I already decided to take the PC back. Small or not, the design is a complete piece of shit. I took the thing apart per the directions to clean it before use and I couldn't even get one of the parts back on. It's a vent strainer cap that has a nut loosely rolling around behind some other metal piece that holds the nut in place. It's impossible to screw that nut back onto the lid without some alien technology. Can't fucking line it up. All I managed to accomplish was powderizing the aluminum by turning it trying to get that vent strainer back on. Without that piece, it lets a ridiculous amount of steam out of the vent and there's a high chance the PC would run dry before I could get anything sterile.
All that fuss about the necessity of a PC for that... I miss bird seed
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19170883 - 11/21/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: No endospores.....
So grinding it up and steaming for 90 minutes somehow kills all endospores whilst cooking the rice and then steaming it allows them to live? Seems like the twice cooked rice ought to have the edge..
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19170940 - 11/21/13 04:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8775343#8775343
QuantumReality claims it works and he's eaten the sun before so I have no reason to doubt him.
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Sagescruffy
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19170942 - 11/21/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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idk if it's really about the endo spores. For some reason when grains are grinded into a flour they don't need to be pressure cooked
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bootster

Registered: 02/22/11
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Sagescruffy]
#19170982 - 11/21/13 04:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Sagescruffy]
#19171051 - 11/21/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sagescruffy said: idk if it's really about the endo spores. For some reason when grains are grinded into a flour they don't need to be pressure cooked 
Now I know that's not true with WBS flour. I learnt that the hard way.
Did anyone catch the name of the fairy that sold you guys your grinders and blenders? I want an endospore annihilating grinder too 
Seriously though, there ought to be some scientific explanation as to what the difference is if there is one.
EDIT: There's one thing I'm certain of in all of this. As long as I have a clean LC, some of these jars are going to make it. I made whole WBS work with steaming when I first started. Obviously it didn't work well, but it did give me my first mushroom trip. Think I was banging out 20% success rates with aluminum foil lids and cotton balls for GE.
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PussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19171072 - 11/21/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Seriously though, there ought to be some scientific explanation as to what the difference is if there is one.
I would use the search function to explain it, but I am tired, and you guys can do the same thing......
This is not the first time this has been asked and we all know it.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19171157 - 11/21/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the flour is penetrated much easier then a grain
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19171421 - 11/21/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17601550#17601550
justncyn claims success too.
Quote:
justncyn said: yes i steam sterilize, i dont have a pc. The WBR works so well imo that i will never go back to brf. When my cakes are ready i grate them and use as spawn to H-poo in a monotub.
One thing this has going for it is that there isn't a large number of failures. I've been on shroomery for several years, spent countless hours reading, and I didn't even know whole brown rice was an option until a few weeks ago. Very few people seem to do it. If this pans out (steam sterilization) then it's got the PF tek beat.
My results won't be very thorough for a while. I've got 8 LC's to try in order to find a clean one and then I'll probably have to give this another go since I can't find a cheap PC.
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19171437 - 11/21/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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yepp wbr can be steamed, as hacker said they don't havve the endospores like other graiins
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19171526 - 11/21/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ah, then I misread. Should have clarified that there was no other whole grain intended other than brown rice. All the same, this doesn't seem to be common knowledge among cultivators and should be helpful.
Whole brown rice does not require a pressure cooker.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15688602#15688602
Quote:
BargainBab said: I've done it multiple times with steam sterilization, all but the first went swimmingly I've done it using grain style and pf style jars with a verm barrier, with just rice and also rice in verm.
I recommend cooking them for just a little less than the instructions say, with a little less water. This gives them enough rigidity that they won't slime up. The pf style jars proved for me to be the best at retaining moisture.
If you have trouble keeping your moisture up you can mix verm with the rice, just like a regular pf jar.
The biggest thing you'll run into is yeast, which can be deterred by acidifying the rice a bit, which the mushrooms prefer and other contams hate anyway.
Hope that's helpful I'll follow that grow for sure.
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anne halonium
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19171758 - 11/21/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: No endospores.....
of course it has endospores............. pure bullshit to suggest otherwise. the verm has endospores also.
you need a PC for any serious grow. a few yrs back, some noobs found out SOMETIMES, that pF tek will work if ya boil enough. this kind of hackery, has plagued the community for yrs
its bad practice, and the grows rarely amount to much.
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Edited by anne halonium (11/21/13 06:43 PM)
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19171786 - 11/21/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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annother example ofg your horrible ways and opinions, i see a perma ban in the near future
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19171805 - 11/21/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
Notahacker420 said: No endospores.....
of course it has endospores............. pure bullshit to suggest otherwise. the verm has endospores also.
you need a PC for any serious grow. a few yrs back, some noobs found out SOMETIMES, that pF tek will work if ya boil enough. this kind of hackery, has plagued the community for yrs
its bad practice, and the grows rarely amount to much.
PF tek works fine with just steaming jars, I have done 100s of cakes with no problems. Pf cakes are the easiest and most efficient way of growing.
If you grind up your rye or wheat berries you won't need a PC. I don't know why, but something tells me it has to do with the surface area of the grain versus powdered up and grinded.
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cronicr



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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
If it can kill whatever is in the jars for the PF tek, so in theory it should be able to kill the same things on whole grains.
Incorrect theory.
Grains such as rye harbor bacterial endospores that can survive many hours at 212F/100C. Brown rice does not. That's why we use pressure cookers for whole grains. Noobs will just have to stick to brf tek or pony up the dough for a pressure cooker if they want success more than a tiny fraction of the time. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10394962#10394962
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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anne halonium
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19171819 - 11/21/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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odds are, well see a ban, before we see you as a competant mycologist.
while your at it, ban nota for misinfo. BRF, most certainly contains endospores.
fact is, this guy wants to learn to grow. tell him how to grow right. dont just lower the bar till he can hack his way thru.
these noobs seem thankful now, but after they spend a few hundred on a trich buckets, and a few months time, i dont see them singing your praises. they get the joke, and then move on to adult methods.
your almost there cronic ya had me fooled till the no PC thread. im holding out hope for ya.
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Edited by anne halonium (11/21/13 07:05 PM)
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19171886 - 11/21/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
If it can kill whatever is in the jars for the PF tek, so in theory it should be able to kill the same things on whole grains.
Incorrect theory.
Grains such as rye harbor bacterial endospores that can survive many hours at 212F/100C. Brown rice does not. That's why we use pressure cookers for whole grains. Noobs will just have to stick to brf tek or pony up the dough for a pressure cooker if they want success more than a tiny fraction of the time. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10394962#10394962
Key word.. whole grains. If you grind into a powder it will work
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anne halonium
jaguarette


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Quote:
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT said:
Quote:
[b it will work
until you realize you spent $60 on electric or gas, plus jar cost, your FC, and whatever other stuff...........
and then it dawns on ya ya got .68 oz dry , total cost 191.26, in a little less than 4 months.
at wich point, a friend calls, and says he knows someone who has the really good ones, at half the price, and ya shoulda asked him.
peeps the key is with PF tek and PC, is the ground up and loose texture in small containers. it simply allows for better steam penetration. wich means, a good long hard boil , and ya stand a chance.
valid strategy for gamblers. not really a good strategy for the serious.
peeps always say this stuff is good for beginners. i never understood where teaching a beginner short cutting, was any help to anyone over the long term.
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Ara16w
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Hey now, I can grow with a PC just fine. Washing the slime and dirt off the grains, getting the moisture content right, and using clean syringes makes it hard to fuck up. It's the lack of PC that makes it challenging.
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT, if that were correct it would seem like more people would be using powdered WBS to fit more of it into jars. I'll look into it for shits 'n' giggles though.
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19171952 - 11/21/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you can powder it and put it into jars but it will be a mass of sticky goop, which is y there's verm in the pf tek
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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anne halonium
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19171965 - 11/21/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Washing the slime and dirt off the grains, getting the moisture content right, and using clean syringes makes it hard to fuck up. It's the lack of PC that makes it challenging. .
they are so cute arent they. its all about the challenge.
anyone who has a PC, its a slam dunk obviously.
isnt that an argument to USE A PC????????????????.
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19171972 - 11/21/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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there's plenty of arguements to use a pc, if you have one or can get one do it! faster more promising sterile times, and a bad ass way to cook a roast
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19171986 - 11/21/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just used whole grain and it didn't turn into a goopy mess. There's very little in the way of clumping and I have practically no experiencing cooking rice. The next time I do it I'm going to undercook it a little so the grain is easier to work with. There were multiple fuck ups in the cooking process but I knew better than to put water-logged rice into a jar and hope for the best.
I squeezed that shit like a sponge and refluffed it with a fork lol, worked though.
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anne halonium
jaguarette


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19171998 - 11/21/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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anyone who cooked human food in my PC.............
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ForgottenFreshness
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19172008 - 11/21/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Based on a cost per hour I'd rather have a pressure cooker run for an hour and a half vs run a steam bath for 3 hours. No matter what the fuel source.
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19172011 - 11/21/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
Quote:
Ara16w said: Washing the slime and dirt off the grains, getting the moisture content right, and using clean syringes makes it hard to fuck up. It's the lack of PC that makes it challenging. .
they are so cute arent they. its all about the challenge.
anyone who has a PC, its a slam dunk obviously.
isnt that an argument to USE A PC????????????????.
It's not about the challenge, it's about a decent PC costing at least $60 which I don't have. I spent $20 on a Philippe-Richard piece of shit and I'm happily taking back so that I won't have a PC. I'd be better off spending that $20 on rice. Odds are good with steaming I can still get 30% success rate in a worst case scenario and that still blows the PF tek colonization times away.
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Ara16w
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Quote:
ForgottenFreshness said: Based on a cost per hour I'd rather have a pressure cooker run for an hour and a half vs run a steam bath for 3 hours. No matter what the fuel source.
I went 90 minutes with the steam route and used less energy than I would have with the PC.
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anne halonium
jaguarette


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Quote:
ForgottenFreshness said: Based on a cost per hour I'd rather have a pressure cooker run for an hour and a half vs run a steam bath for 3 hours. No matter what the fuel source.
its really that simple.
im not suggesting peeps need a 20k lab to sterilize something. they dont.
ive seen cookers for around 40$. its a rudimentary kitchen tool. peeps act like im telling em to buy a mercedes.
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Kizzle
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PF jars are denser and contain more water than grain jars so they transfer heat better. 212F requires more time to have the same effect as 250F but the 'cold spot. in PF jars reach that temperature earlier. The bacteria that do survive are not a problem as they grow slowly at room temperature or require an anaerobic environment to grow.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Quote:
nn-IlliniSpiralDMT said:
Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
If it can kill whatever is in the jars for the PF tek, so in theory it should be able to kill the same things on whole grains.
Incorrect theory.
Grains such as rye harbor bacterial endospores that can survive many hours at 212F/100C. Brown rice does not. That's why we use pressure cookers for whole grains. Noobs will just have to stick to brf tek or pony up the dough for a pressure cooker if they want success more than a tiny fraction of the time. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10394962#10394962
Key word.. whole grains. If you grind into a powder it will work
No. Key words are 212F/100C, endospores, and surviving several hours. Grinding up rye does not get rid of the endospores. You have to heat them for a long time and/or at a higher temperature.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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justarandom
around here somewhere

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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19172102 - 11/21/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just because u can scim by doesnt mean you should.. youd be better off placing the effort into getting a better job so you have 60$ or saving 60$ instead of buying materials for a sub par result even if u sold the shrooms from the 3 4 5 whatever cakes we are talking cakes..... your not gunna be rolling in the doe. and if u just want to trip and you have 20$.. well theres an easier way. dont understand why it has been peoples goal lately to do badly..
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anne halonium
jaguarette


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
#19172120 - 11/21/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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cuz its a race to the bottom, and no one ever wins, they just think they can, and noob growers stoke the fantasy.
were working, to turn that around.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
#19172129 - 11/21/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's Kurt Cobain's fault.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
#19172371 - 11/21/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
justarandom said: Just because u can scim by doesnt mean you should.. youd be better off placing the effort into getting a better job so you have 60$ or saving 60$ instead of buying materials for a sub par result even if u sold the shrooms from the 3 4 5 whatever cakes we are talking cakes..... your not gunna be rolling in the doe. and if u just want to trip and you have 20$.. well theres an easier way. dont understand why it has been peoples goal lately to do badly..
Wage slavery you say? Poppycock!
If it works, it works. The three people I found steam sterilizing whole rice were having around 100% success rates. Only being able to find 3 references to it and there being very little talk of whole grain rice was the point of the thread. As I said before, I've been here for years and it wasn't until a few weeks ago that I had even heard of doing whole grain rice. I assumed it required a PC but I was misinformed.
Even then, there's other ways of growing shrooms without a PC. A few people were having great success by soaking their grains in Sunlight Antibacterial dish soap. I searched for that soap for weeks before I gave up on that route lol. It had a rare main ingredient, salicylic acid rather than the harmful triclosan.
No one would know jack shit unless someone was stupid enough to try
Edited by Ara16w (11/21/13 08:02 PM)
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justarandom
around here somewhere

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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19172401 - 11/21/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: No one would know jack shit unless someone was stupid enough to try 
i agree with this but isnt that the place for some1 established? who can fail? that a failure is not going to affect, dude has 20$?
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
#19172427 - 11/21/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why can't I fail? I'm just out $1.50 for the rice. Honestly, the only way I should even fail is if I didn't steam it long enough or if I inoculate with bad LC, which is why I have 8 to try. The moisture content is fine. It looks rice inside the jars, not mush.
I had some WBS and popcorn on hand too. Be grateful I didn't try that lol.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: justarandom]
#19172433 - 11/21/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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FWIW my PC was 20$ I see them pop up on craigslist daily for 20-40$ plenty good enough ones to do 4 quart jars and get you started.
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
#19172465 - 11/21/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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No dice. I already checked craigslist and there were 3. Two of them were the same size as the one I have and the third was out of my price range. I also checked craigslist in the past to no avail. Flea market sounds like a better option but then again, it's easier to wait on cash and spend $100 on something new that will last forever.
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anne halonium
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19173611 - 11/22/13 04:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i find it shocking, that peeps claim better results steaming than most PC peeps claim.
modern labs, and serious adult growers, all know a PC is required for tangible work. they wont be persuaded by the no contams from boiling , its pure bullshit. the sane , arent likely to equate luck and skill.
my fear here is for the noobs that read this. they just go with what they wanna hear.
im sure theres lots of former noobs that get the joke here. its on them, if they think they can steam their way to shroom stardom.
ill bet theres peeps reading this,that when they were noobs were hoodwinked by grow posers and charlatans and hacks with steamers, that lost hundred$ trying to replicate their fanciful claims. im sure they are too embarassed , to admit their folly.
fact is, the steam punks never really produce much, and all serious growers use PC's. steam punks just cluster and make alot of noise, creating a false impression they are legit.
for every one of these poor souls, ive seen 10 posts on other threads where peeps say, " god im glad i got a PC finally , steaming is stupid"
the idea theres serious growers who do not, use PC's is myth. this about peeps too cheap to get a PC conjuring fantasy credibility, while making wild claims on small batches , with little frame of reference, and marginal bio handling experience.
of course, anyone who grows in the tropics, realizes steaming is beyond moronic. steamers think everyone lives in the arctic. its "go to hell " for everyone else, literally. its certainly a shitty flawed tek, if it only works for peeps in cold areas, when mom and dad pay the fuel bills.( that is when , it does work)
its the type of grow only Ted Kaczynski would endorse.
only a noob would fall for it. its sad so many do.
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Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 04:53 AM)
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19180090 - 11/23/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Honestly man, if I were trying to grow commercially then there's no way in hell I'd use a PC. It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to rig a giant steamer and go the fractional sterilization route than to PC small amounts 24/7.
Noobs already largely use the steam route. It's called the PF tek. This new "tek" really doesn't change that much so it's not hard to see why the few who are using it are having good results. What does change is colonization times and the amount of nutes per jar. Both are vastly improved. If cooking rice correctly is the only added obstacle then for fuck's sake, learn how to cook rice. It's also worth keeping in mind that the rice is sufficiently hydrated and thus conducts heat more or less the same as the PF tek.
If there was a single person that lost hundreds trying to employ the steam route then that person is a complete dumbass. How would anyone spend that much money when the argument against the PC almost always comes down to money? People have the equipment to steam already. They just need jars, a spore syringe, and a few other cheap supplies to get started which is well under $50.
Define a serious grower. A quart jar 3/4 full of cooked rice will yield somewhere in the ballpark of 20g dry if not more. That's on par with WBS yields. The term "bulk" in the way it's used around here is misleading. Spawning to bulk (manure, coir, etc.) does not drastically increase yields. It doesn't have the nutes to do so. What it does do is supply water. If a colonized rice cake maintains its sponginess then there's not a hell of a lot of sense in spawning to bulk with it to begin with. By dunking and rolling, you may end up with slightly less yields than you would with other grains, but you'll get those yields a hell of a lot quicker.
All in all, rice cakes have a lot of potential. It's a shame folks can't get past it being starchy and thus sticky, especially given that it's more work trying to get WBS into a useable state.
Edited by Ara16w (11/23/13 07:15 PM)
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PussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19180178 - 11/23/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Honestly man, if I were trying to grow commercially then there's no way in hell I'd use a PC. It'd be a lot easier and cheaper to rig a giant steamer and go the fractional sterilization route than to PC small amounts 24/7.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: No it does not work. I suggest if you wish to claim it does that you 'fractional sterilize' 100 jars of grains and inoculate them. If over 50 of those jars produce mushrooms, you can say it has a 50% success/fail rate. I know for a fact however that you won't be able to get 50 out of 100 jars to fruit that way.
After preparation of the grains, you can steam at 100C for 8 hours and succeed. In fact, this is the method we use on our commercial mushroom farm to achieve 100% success. Not only that, but we're at 4000' elevation so water boils at less than 100C. The key is to keep the grains or supplemented sawdust at or near 100C for 8 hours.
Obviously a pressure cooker or sterilizer is best and quickest, but the above works. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17867637#17867637
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Fractional sterilization fails 90% or greater of the time.
Steam grain jars as in the brf tek for 8 hours all at once if you don't have a pressure cooker. Keep a second pot of water on the stove boiling so you can add water as needed several times over that 8 hours. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17046622#17046622
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19180199 - 11/23/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Anyone who says steam sterilization without pressure isn't enough is flat-out wrong. It's the method we use on our mushroom farm for thousands of pounds of substrate per week with 100% success. If someone is failing with steam sterilization, they're not doing it right. RR
You don't need a PC, but you do need time if you don't have a PC.
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19180365 - 11/23/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thank you for the correction on that one. It's a minor difference in the length of time anyway, but I'm surprised that fractional sterilization doesn't work... Wasn't it used successfully before pressure cooking (not mushrooms, but for food preservation)?
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
#19180371 - 11/23/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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More success stories of whole grain rice and no PC here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15788207/fpart/5/vc/1
These are all in the 90-120 minute range on par with the PF tek, not the 8 hour method for doing other grains.
And another:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1135030
Quote:
soochi said: Yes, I have personally found success in using whole brown rice (Basmati, in fact) I cased with 50/50 organic compost and verm. I recommend casing when using whole brown rice; I have also been successful in fruiting crumbled brf/verm cakes. To think about it, I think casing really is the way to go. Whole Rye is sometimes hard to find; so is millet and straw. I should also note that I don't have a pressure cooker. I use a steamer and steam the rice in quart jars (easier to find), steam has a higher temperature than boiling water, albeit not as high as a pressure cooker, but it seems to work for me.
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19180444 - 11/23/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Gah, I fell victim to the hype. Mulligan!
RR is wrong about tyndallization (fractional sterilization). Sterile is sterile. There's no way in hell companies used / are using this method to sterilize food if it doesn't work. Even if it works once, it works. The problem was with his technique. I'm not saying I can do it any better and I'll grant him that steaming for 8 hours is probably a lot quicker.
The success in tyndallization has to be in the time the "food" is heated. I sure as fuck wouldn't try 3 back to back days of 15 minutes like wikipedia says. Completely winging it, I would have went 2 hours for 4 days and that could still lead to shotty results. God knows how long you have to heat it like that, but volume is of course going to come into play as well.
RR also outright shunned whole brown rice in one of his comments I found pulling these success stories. His gripe was the starch. As I previously stated, it's not that different from the slime that comes with prepping WBS. Leaving it on there is a rookie mistake that's going to cause contam rates to soar.
I accept RR for what he is, an experienced grower. He's not an omniscient being, nor is he my God. He's just a small part of it
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jpack666



Registered: 10/01/13
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19180619 - 11/23/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the reason is very obvious, wbrf is powder and grains are grains. Try to steam wbr without grinding it to flour and you'll see what I mean.
That's for OP's question. My 2 cents...
But as for the debate going on... The savings in time and on your energy bill from using a PC make the PC cheaper in the end. It's an investment, not a purchase, IMO.
As for commercial growers... Legal: buy spawn bags (editted in: or may use autoclave) Illegal: we'll never know (would you come here to claim you have a criminal commercial enterprise and then give us all the details of how you proceed?)
I stay neutral in this game but I do not encourage sharing information on how to commercially grow illicit mushrooms. I distance myself from this... Not judging or condoning, but if they have their own unique teks which differ from the norm, I think sharing that info could be a bad influence to newbies who are getting hyped up...
-------------------- "There's a negative and a positive to everything." For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos
Edited by jpack666 (11/23/13 10:13 PM)
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mycomattie



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: jpack666]
#19180671 - 11/23/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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What? Commercial growers use autoclaves, not fractional sterilization...
Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization, but why not invest in a PC? If you can't invest $70 on a Presto 23qt, maybe you should concentrate on other priorities rather than growing cubes?
Trust me, I'm frugal, but if you shop around you can find a PC for short $$
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elasticaltiger
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: jpack666]
#19180735 - 11/23/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization
You can get GREAT commercial success rates with steam sterilization. http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Wood-Fired-Steam-Boiler
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (11/23/13 10:31 PM)
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PussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#19180742 - 11/23/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said:
Quote:
Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization
You can get GREAT commercial success rates with steam sterilization. http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Wood-Fired-Steam-Boiler
Depending on how long you choose to steam sterilize, sure.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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elasticaltiger
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19180754 - 11/23/13 10:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
elasticaltiger said:
Quote:
Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization
You can get GREAT commercial success rates with steam sterilization. http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Wood-Fired-Steam-Boiler
Depending on how long you choose to steam sterilize, sure.
Which begs the question: Why would anyone half ass their steam sterilization effort?
Mysteries like this flow throughout our universe.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19181798 - 11/24/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Long story short, the PC I bought isn't big enough to hold quarts jars (all I could afford) and I made this discovery after cooking some whole grain brown rice. I do have a large canner that doesn't hold pressure so I loaded up the jars with the rice and am currently steaming them for 90 minutes.
If one can get away without using a PC for the PF tek, is it not feasible that whole grains should also work?
Not all grains are the same. It would appear that WBR is easier to sterilize than other grains commonly used in cultivation.
This could be because WBR is softer or doesn't carry the bio load than grains like WBS and Rye.
Quote:
Ara16w said: RR is wrong about tyndallization (fractional sterilization). Sterile is sterile. There's no way in hell companies used / are using this method to sterilize food if it doesn't work. Even if it works once, it works. The problem was with his technique. I'm not saying I can do it any better and I'll grant him that steaming for 8 hours is probably a lot quicker.
Yes, sterile is sterile. The question is "Is it sterile?". Different methods of sterilization, and pasteurization for that matter, can be used with different foods.
Show me a company that sells hydrated WBS or Rye that is sterilized using fractional sterilization. My point here is that just because the food industry does something to prep food for consumption does not mean it is viable for cultivation.
Different foods with different intents require different preparation methods.
Quote:
Ara16w said: RR also outright shunned whole brown rice in one of his comments I found pulling these success stories. His gripe was the starch. As I previously stated, it's not that different from the slime that comes with prepping WBS. Leaving it on there is a rookie mistake that's going to cause contam rates to soar.
I accept RR for what he is, an experienced grower. He's not an omniscient being, nor is he my God. He's just a small part of it 
Some opinions are based on facts and experience. Some opinions are based on preference and experience.
TC's have just as much right to be opinionated based on preference as anybody else.
Arguing with a TC about fact is a fool's errand.
The trick is to distinguish what's based on fact and what's based on preference.
The best way to knock a TC off their high-horse is to ignore them and prove them wrong with your own accomplishments. Good luck
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: mycomattie]
#19183980 - 11/24/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycomattie said: What? Commercial growers use autoclaves, not fractional sterilization...
Sure, you may get decent success rates using steam sterilization, but why not invest in a PC? If you can't invest $70 on a Presto 23qt, maybe you should concentrate on other priorities rather than growing cubes?
Trust me, I'm frugal, but if you shop around you can find a PC for short $$
The point is that there exists a method which produces similar results to other grains such as WBS or rye that can be spawned to bulk without the need for a pressure cooker. Let me repeat that. Nearly identical results, no pressure cooker. Given the number of new growers, the PF tek, and all the threads in existence trying to find a way around the pressure cooker, it's highly sought information that isn't well known. In fact, it's still being debated in this thread despite all the separate claims of success.
If you want to prep and PC WBS, rye, or whatever, then you have my blessing even though I never suggested anything to the contrary. However, allow me to go over the benefits of properly prepped whole rice once more:
1). A PC isn't necessary. If it makes you sleep better at night you can still use one and achieve identical results.
2). The amount of nutrients in a whole rice jar is a lot higher than the PF tek because there's more rice. Based on the half pint PF teks consistently yielding at least 5g dry for experienced growers, I suggested that a quart of whole rice would yield at least 20g dry which is low balling it. It should give WBS and rye yields a run for their money.
3). It colonizes quickly without the need for shaking (in as little as 10 days) because of the dense yet aerated structure of the cooked rice.
4). Cooked rice is spongey and thus holds onto water well doing away with the need for spawning to bulk. In one thread, someone was having difficulty soaking their rice cakes correctly because they tried to do it for the same length of time as other grains and the rice turned to mush which later contaminated. From that, one can conclude that there's a perfect amount of time to soak a rice cake without the need for substrate. The rez-effect should be more than sufficient.
Spawning to bulk is not necessarily the greatest notion that was ever conceived of in regards to mycology. Using anything beyond a 1:2 ratio of spawn to bulk seems completely idiotic. Once again, bulk substrates lack the nutrients to increase yields. They exist mainly for the purpose of supplying water to developing fruit bodies. Crumbling non-consolidated cakes opens the possibility of contamination and uses nutrients for the purpose of colonization rather than increasing your yields.
5). The time involved from start to finish is significantly lowered which simultaneously cuts down on the risk of contamination developing and preventing a full yield.
Less work, noob friendly, no PC required. The only tricky parts are cooking the rice correctly and washing the excess starch off. Undercooking it by 5-10 minutes (based on the package directions) is the best bet as this leaves the outside well-hydrated but the inside firm. When you steam or PC the jars, the water inside the grains will redistribute and the inside of the grains is not likely to still be firm, but equally hydrated throughout.
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Kizzle
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19184575 - 11/24/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
modern labs, and serious adult growers, all know a PC is required for tangible work.
I guarantee no labs are going to use a pressure. They'll use an autoclave. Of course that doesn't mean you can't use the a pressure cooker without success. Now before you say there's no difference, there is, especially with the rotary based autoclaves that often used for spawn production. The difference is time, and that's same difference between steaming in a pot at 0 PSI or in a PC at 15 PSI
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anne halonium
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Kizzle]
#19185786 - 11/25/13 08:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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^just a PC is a big jump for these guys. you can be attacked for suggesting modern lab equipment.
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Kizzle
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19186417 - 11/25/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You might find this interesting. This is a thermal death curve showing the equivalence of different temperatures.
 No doubt there's a large difference in speed even at low PSIs. However it's a little misleading for mushroom cultivation because it's based on highly resistant Clostridium endospores which are important in canning but aren't a contaminant of mushroom spawn, because the vegetative bacteria of those is killed by oxygen. It'd be interesting to find one based on Bacillus species. It would no doubt have a similar curve but the values would be different.
This is from memory so don't quote me on it, but for a general idea of the temperatures that kill Bacillus, 110C should reduce the population of endospores by 90% every 10-12 seconds. Most of the sterilization time in a pressure cooker is spent heating the substrate to that temperature. Steaming a PF jar only reaches a lower temperature of 100C rather than the 120C obtained at 15 psi, but because it's reached sooner due to the higher density and water content, hence exposed the maximum temperature for longer during the same period of time, 100C can have the same killing effect (against the bacteria of significance) on a PF jar as 120C would have on a grain jar.
For the same reason one might predict that WBR would be sterilized somewhat easier than less dense grains (as in the amount of air to substreate) like popcorn which would probably be the hardest.
One more thing. When it's said that steaming PF jars is just as effective as PCing that is assuming ideal colonization speeds. It's possible it's not true in cases where the wrong jars were being used or anything else that leads to longer colonization times. Also some people may not realize that the 90 minutes of steaming doesn't start until the water starts boiling and the pot is filled with steam..
Edited by Kizzle (11/25/13 12:18 PM)
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mycomattie



Registered: 11/15/12
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Kizzle]
#19187965 - 11/25/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Spawning to bulk is not necessarily the greatest notion that was ever conceived of in regards to mycology. Using anything beyond a 1:2 ratio of spawn to bulk seems completely idiotic. Once again, bulk substrates lack the nutrients to increase yields. They exist mainly for the purpose of supplying water to developing fruit bodies. Crumbling non-consolidated cakes opens the possibility of contamination and uses nutrients for the purpose of colonization rather than increasing your yields.
I take it you're a fan of cakes?
From what I've seen - I'm hesitant to believe anything beyond a 1:2 ratio is "completely idiotic."
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Edited by mycomattie (11/25/13 05:24 PM)
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: mycomattie]
#19188524 - 11/25/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not in particular. I'm a fan of what works best for each given situation. A cake from a quart jar will perform the same as a substrate with similar depth so long as it can hold water. Most grains don't do that so well and thus need the bulk. Whole rice might, but it's looking doubtful.
What'd you see? I saw folks spawning using a 1:8 ratio for less than spectacular yields.
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19328475 - 12/26/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Figured this could use an update.
The plain rice from my first batch where I followed the cooking directions on the package and then hand squeezed out the excess moisture was a failure. It was still way too wet.
For my second effort, I used the 1:1 ratio of water to rice and simmered it for 20 minutes per other folks instructions. It was a sticky mess, but a mostly dry sticky mess. I encountered a new problem with these jars I've never run into before. Sometime during the first week, the rice started fermenting.
There isn't a funky smell coming out of the jars and no bacteria nor mold is growing on the grains. The rice is turning orange and falling apart which caused me moisture issues since the rice releases its water when it ferments. There's healthy mycelium throughout the jars but I did notice something interesting from this. In a few jars where the myc was close to the fermentation zones, the myc loves the fermented rice. It's growing more vigorously in those portions of the jars so I've decided to give it another week and see how it plays out.
Those runs were both boiled for 90 minutes by the way.
My third effort used the same 1:1 ratio and cook time except I washed the rice afterward to get rid of the stickiness and added gypsum and vermiculite until it was dry. I also PCed that batch for 90 minutes. Obviously, it's working fine. It's somewhere between 20%-40% colonized after a week.
In the future I'm going to experiment with soaking the rice instead of cooking it and possibly fermenting it before PCing. I'll have to wait and see how this plays out.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19328485 - 12/26/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Probly growing like that because its treating it like a contam,
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19328904 - 12/26/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said:
Quote:
Ara16w said: I'll have to wait and see how this plays out.
i suspect your just playing around mostly.
fact is, if ya want a tangible reliable, quality grow, ya need a PC.
you can reduce yourself to chance, with the heart warming conjecture, of obviously inexperienced and poorly trained noobs , who believe in steaming, rather than get a 30$ PC, or, ya can get a PC and grow for real.
no one sane , who ever owned a PC, says " gee , i wanna go back to steaming cuz its better"
those who promote steaming, are almost 100% small growers, who lack the means to use them, and seek some degree of validation for luck.
no points for luck, all points for skill in annieville. if i started validating steamers, half my hater score would vanish.
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Edited by anne halonium (12/26/13 01:37 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19328919 - 12/26/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said:
those who promote steaming, are almost 100% small growers, who lack the means to use them, and seek some degree of validation for luck.
no points for luck, all points for skill in annieville. if i started validating steamers, half my hater score would vanish.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16271746#16271746...just saying
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anne halonium
jaguarette



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19328972 - 12/26/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
anne halonium said:
those who promote steaming, are almost 100% small growers, who lack the means to use them, and seek some degree of validation for luck.
no points for luck, all points for skill in annieville. if i started validating steamers, half my hater score would vanish.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16271746#16271746...just saying
fine for those with a HS diploma, and some engineering skill.
other than that, its just an enabling fantasy for the typical grower , who lacks skill, training, and 30$
if i hated noobs, id tell them to steam.
read the thread, it has nothing to do with noobs and gramma crock pot. if anything, it proves my point.
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Edited by anne halonium (12/26/13 01:52 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19328981 - 12/26/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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pc's are always the way to go, the most reliable tool we have in this hobby
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19328996 - 12/26/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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cronic, right when ya make me wonder, ya seem to wise up. you amaze me more than anyone here.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19329011 - 12/26/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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anyone got experience with the electric ones? i got offered one for fairly cheap but never see them used?
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,059
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19331531 - 12/27/13 02:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
anne halonium said: those who promote steaming, are almost 100% small growers, who lack the means to use them, and seek some degree of validation for luck.
no points for luck, all points for skill in annieville. if i started validating steamers, half my hater score would vanish.
We obviously have terrible standards. Why don't you go start your own forum where to be part of the cultivation board you have to own a PC first and prove a level of skill? That way you don't have to deal with ostriches and people who promote things like steaming grains for 8 hours? You're the one who's always talking about setting standards so start your own place. People will obviously see how superior your standards are and naturally everyone will gravitate over to your fora.
Quote:
cronicr said: anyone got experience with the electric ones? i got offered one for fairly cheap but never see them used?
Cronicr, I saw a thread recently where someone was showing off their electric sterilizer and they said they loved it. I'll try to find it for you.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (12/27/13 02:42 AM)
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#19331537 - 12/27/13 02:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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OH MY GOD I STEAMED MY GRAIN!
 shoot me now , do shit right and don't cut corners and always stay stubborn
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: elasticaltiger]
#19331878 - 12/27/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said:
We obviously have terrible standards. Why don't you go start your
your suggesting the entire shroomery lower itself till it meets you somewhere?
a good portion of the peeps here have good standards. you imply your standard , is standard, and thats bullshit. thats insulting to all the serious members here.
fact is, the poser growers, are a low percent here. most peeps here actually try for a serious grow. the posers just make alot of noise and create confusion beyond their numbers.
i respect the serious growers time and efforts and money. i am never gonna tell them to hack it out and hope. ill leave that to you.
ill suggest ya ask roger and the mods, if they will create a kiddie pool with life guards for you.
its common knowledge , alot of excellent growers have left forums, because of the abusive nature of the pseudo growers. i wish all the pros in hiding would come back. sorry if that would spoil your day.
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Edited by anne halonium (12/27/13 06:55 AM)
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: anne halonium]
#19481692 - 01/27/14 02:47 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Fermentation during colonization = bust.
I had some pints that I thought for sure would finish since the myc was spread evenly throughout about 50% colonized but the fermentation won. None of the jars developed any other contaminants though outside of the yeast. I'd still be curious to see how it works out sterilizing slightly fermented rice.
Now I have a PC and a shit ton of rice so I'm probably not going to be steaming it for the hell of it. However, something has to be done with the rice. I rinsed off several pounds and put that into a bucket with a few tablespoons of instant coffee on top. I boiled about 3x the volume of water and dumped it into the bucket and I'm going to let it soak for 24 hours. That may not be enough but it should have a vastly different texture than cooked rice. I'll probably end up treating WBS in a similar manner in the future since it's been my experience that simmering it makes it too wet. Several hours of drying in the sun and then being rolled around in a towel to only find that it still has too much moisture has made me want to abandon that approach, and I do have some that I soaked for 48 hours going along with the simmered as an experiment.
One way or another I'm going to figure out whole rice's secret, why it's such a tease. It makes too good of a slurry not to.
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19481793 - 01/27/14 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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stop fucking around and follow a wbs tek to the T lol
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19482025 - 01/27/14 03:47 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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I have.
24 hour soak, 45-60 minute simmer is terrible. I've been doing this long enough to know what I'm looking for in moisture content. When I was new I just loaded up the overly wet grains after that procedure and it caused me a bunch of problems.
There's currently over 20lbs of substrate going using methods that old pros would recomend and I've had other stuff start and finish since experimenting. Let me experiment dammit! How would you have liked it if someone told you not to experiment when you were a teenager? I've explained masturbation to one person in this lifetime, I won't do it again.
Also, had I not experimented with LC I would have not found a method that gave me 100% success with 8 pints which seems unheard of here. I'm still in shock that it happened frankly given my past results, but injecting the most minute amount possible from a spore syringe that I suspected to be a dirty print into honey water and slowly incubating (70 at night, 80 for 6 hours during the day) worked like a charm.
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19482118 - 01/27/14 04:07 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: I have.
24 hour soak, 45-60 minute simmer is terrible.
well then u haven't, the teks call for a ten minute simmer not 45-60 thats for rye, too many small seeds in wbs for that long of a simmer lol, and don't get so offended i'm just twisting your nipples a bit
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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OgreLokon
Pretty Fun Guy


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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19482595 - 01/27/14 05:57 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: i'm just twisting your nipples a bit
You should've complimented his eyes and bought him a drink first.
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vikingsc
Mushroom Enthusiast



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: OgreLokon]
#19483125 - 01/27/14 07:36 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Talk about a painful thread
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: OgreLokon]
#19483378 - 01/27/14 08:21 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Without going back and rereading I'm almost 100% certain you're wrong and here's why. None of the grains are anywhere near bursting after 10 minutes. Ten minutes doesn't even make a noticeable difference. Now I know that burst grains aren't ideal but having 5% or so of your total burst is about perfect hydration.
Quote:
OgreLokon said:
Quote:
cronicr said: i'm just twisting your nipples a bit
You should've complimented his eyes and bought him a drink first.
God damn right. What's wrong with you? Are you some kind of fag? My eyes are certainly complimentable.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19483397 - 01/27/14 08:24 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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this thread,




and has left me to go

 and
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Elston Gunn
Lost Soul



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
#19483411 - 01/27/14 08:27 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Rice flour might be easier to penetrate with heat.
-------------------- Happiness is the ultimate sign of success. "Just put all the poo in the corner of the bag like you would an 8 ball, then tie it up, like you would an 8 ball. " - PsychoSlut Elston's Wonderland Trade List
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Elston Gunn]
#19483447 - 01/27/14 08:36 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Elston Gunn said: Rice flour might be easier to penetrate with heat.
brown rice flour is easier to penetrate with heat, thats why the PF tek can get away without a PC, not just any rice brown rice. That has the bran layer which is what the mush mush wants.
Also rice,brown,penetration,heat... sounds like New Orleans
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Elston Gunn
Lost Soul



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
#19483454 - 01/27/14 08:37 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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hahahahaha that made me laugh so hard. Yeah roger rabbit said "Brown rice doesn't harbor bacterial endospores"
-------------------- Happiness is the ultimate sign of success. "Just put all the poo in the corner of the bag like you would an 8 ball, then tie it up, like you would an 8 ball. " - PsychoSlut Elston's Wonderland Trade List
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Elston Gunn]
#19483518 - 01/27/14 08:48 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Elston Gunn said: hahahahaha that made me laugh so hard. Yeah roger rabbit said "Brown rice doesn't harbor bacterial endospores"
it's a gross simplification but it's sort true. I assume endospores exist however there's lots of bacteria and perhaps there's some merit to the idea that the bacteria that effect the window we give mycelium for colonization are lower in rice, as well as having a harder time germinating in grains that are not whole, as well as grinding process destroying some % of the endospores, as well as the storage process. this is coupled along with the fact that the jars are smaller, the grain is already ground up, and the obvious heat transfer/penetration difference because of all these factors.
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cronicr



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: bodhisatta]
#19484243 - 01/27/14 11:47 PM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: Without going back and rereading I'm almost 100% certain you're wrong and here's why. None of the grains are anywhere near bursting after 10 minutes. Ten minutes doesn't even make a noticeable difference. Now I know that burst grains aren't ideal but having 5% or so of your total burst is about perfect hydration.
Quote:
OgreLokon said:
Quote:
cronicr said: i'm just twisting your nipples a bit
You should've complimented his eyes and bought him a drink first.
God damn right. What's wrong with you? Are you some kind of fag? My eyes are certainly complimentable.
 i quit, keep simmering for 45-60 minutes but quit bitching when it doesn't work, myself and pretty well everyone else who followed the teks have only done it 1000's of times but no sweat, you got this right? were all just dumb noobs good luck
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Ara16w
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: cronicr]
#19485370 - 01/28/14 09:30 AM (10 years, 3 days ago) |
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The next facepalm is on me.
- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10949606/fpart/1/vc/1
- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4633882#4633882
- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3394845
- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10031685
According to those, we were both wrong. While you may have been closer to the norm, should you remind me I will tell you to eat shit and die out of common courtesy of course. Most people do not simmer at all going by those that actually post about their actions.
Only soaking for 24 hours does not allow water to deeply penetrate the grains. In my experience, the grains don't even noticeably begin to swell until after 30 minutes of simmering. If they haven't swollen in a visible way then how much water could they have possibly soaked up? As for what the actual perfect moisture content is that allows mycelium the speediest colonization without the water getting in its way and thus halting its growth is up for debate.
While I think that a 24 hour soak and simmering for 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 minutes to do tests would be spiffy, I haven't got that kind of free time to find out. It's easier for me to assume that too much water and a mushy inside will be easier for mycelium to colonize than a hard waterless core.
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19485458 - 01/28/14 10:02 AM (10 years, 2 days ago) |
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It might help if you quoted something from the last year or 2.....and not posts which are a decade old.
I never simmer/boil my WBS...I just soak for 24 hours in hot tap water and strain for a half hour.
The soak is what mainly hydrates the grains, not the simmer/boil.
We simmer/boil the grains to get them hot enough to steam dry quickly, that is all.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: PussyFart]
#19487363 - 01/28/14 05:32 PM (10 years, 2 days ago) |
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Soak, strain, PC. No simmer/boil required with WBS. People make things way too hard
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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PocketRevolution
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: SpitballJedi]
#19488974 - 01/28/14 10:14 PM (10 years, 2 days ago) |
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I got some pretty decent results a few times by dropping raw brown rice into a large volume of boiling water, boiling for a short period, straining, then jarring and PCing. Around 5-10 minutes I would guess but I always just looked at the appearance of the rice rather than watching the clock. I tried the boiling water soak, strain, PC method but with whole brown rice it was too dry.
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Ara16w
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My only concern with using just the 24 hour soak is that it will never fully colonize the inside because of a lack of water and thus lose nutrients / time / effort.
Somewhere along the line I read that grains holding the maximum amount of water they can to be optimal and I bought into it. I also read RR say that the 24 soak is optimal. I have conclusive evidence for neither, but I'm starting to really doubt fully hydrated grains, which is only possible through simmering, is ideal. The truth is probably somewhere closer to the middle of the two. I hope to explore that one day and find out if it makes a difference in speed at all. I'll have something very rough to go on with my 48 hour soak versus the 24 hour soak + 45 minute simmer.
As for my rice prep, after the initial boiling water being poured on and soaking for 24 hours, I checked it and the water really hadn't penetrated it all. So, I drained it and repeated the process minus the coffee and with the addition of gypsum. After 48 hours, it still hadn't penetrated the rice that much and I got busy and decided to let it continue to soak for another 24 hours, making it 72 total. I have a feeling it's going to be about the same. I'm curious to try it as is because it's almost like WBS after a 24 hour soak in that hardly any water has penetrated the surface of the grain but it's a lot of rice to waste if it doesn't pan out. I'll have to play it by ear.
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PussyFart
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Re: Why Doesn't The PF Tek Require A PC? [Re: Ara16w]
#19493660 - 01/29/14 08:44 PM (10 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: My only concern with using just the 24 hour soak is that it will never fully colonize the inside because of a lack of water and thus lose nutrients / time / effort.
Don't worry about whether the mycellium can colonize the inside of the grain or not, that is irrelevant, because it won't regardles.
The mycellium colonizing the outside of the grains is what actually matters.
2 people just told you they soak for 24 hours without simmering/boiling without issues, and if you use the search function there will be 100s more that do the same.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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