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all this beauty
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: g00ru]
#19170448 - 11/21/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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g00ru said:
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all this beauty said: I don't know this for a fact -- but I bet people who are not exposed to the "luminous white tunnel" or the "I saw Jesus" pop culture notion of what people experience in NDEs don't experience luminous white tunnels or Jesus when they themselves have NDEs.
Jesus is more than a simple 'pop' phenomenon...his existence is very much accepted by historians. Sure cultural conditioning can influence mystical visions...it IS a mystical vision in it's own right. But some things come from beyond even the cultural sphere. I believe Jesus's life to be like this. I am not in any way guessing, because I have certainly experienced the love and energy of Jesus to be real...regardless at the very least don't put society on a pedastal above individual visions, put the individual vision on a pedestal above society
Great post. Very juicy.
By "pop culture," I was referring to the popular notion on TV and the like that when people have NDEs, they encounter Jesus Christ in a luminous tunnel of gold, or some such thing.
Jesus Christ was a real, historic, figure. On that point we certainly agree.
This thread is about NDEs, so let me ask you this, g00ru:
If NDEs are for real -- genuine encounters with God -- do you think a practicing Buddhist who has a NDE would find himself face-to-face with Jesus Christ?
Your encounters with Jesus have been metaphysical / spiritual in nature, yes? Or do you profess to have experienced Jesus in some other, real or physical, manner.
I've read NDE reports where the subjects allege a physical presence urging them to come yonder.
In your opinion, might that be the actual, historic Jesus Christ?
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g00ru
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well buddhists are in a different spiritual tradition...I think they would be much more likely indeed to see a Buddha, just because it is the love of Siddhartha Guatama and other Buddhas they surround themselves with. BUT there are many people from the east like Paramhansa Yogananda, a Hindu, who report numerous visions of Jesus Christ in addition to Krishna and Kali. Personally I haven't had that level of intimacy with Jesus...but I've had experience of cosmic consciousness. I usually just call it 'the universe' 'God' or 'Jah.' But I closely relate Jah to Jesus And I feel in touch with this after reading the Bible.
Yes I do think many people with those visions are in fact meeting Jesus, as he became an incarnation of cosmic consciousness. He isn't the only one though, you could meet anyone in a vision. I had a friend that took acid and met John Lennon in a strawberry field, I mean go figure.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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all this beauty
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: g00ru]
#19170542 - 11/21/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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g00ru said: well buddhists are in a different spiritual tradition...I think they would be much more likely indeed to see a Buddha, just because it is the love of Siddhartha Guatama and other Buddhas they surround themselves with.
I agree.
Here's what I think:
In each of our subconscious minds, there is buried, deep, an archetype of love and justice and freedom and everything we hold dear and cherish in life.
For Christians, it is Jesus. For Buddhists, it is the Gautama Buddha. For Hindus, it is one of the several Hindu deities.
Muslims hold dear a whole host of prophets and saints (with Muhammad being front and center, of course).
So when we have a mystical encounter with the sublime, we experience the archetype that has been engraved in our subconscious mind. Christians see Jesus, Buddhists see the Gautama Buddha, and so forth.
What do you think of my theory, g00ru?
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g00ru
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i basically agree with that...but with a minor additions
i don't think it's necessarily coming from your own subconscious. in the same way that hearing music while you are asleep can influence your dream, i think these visions are a prime example of information coming from outside one's own personal well of information, even if it is an 'inner vision'. yeah the subconscious is very vast but cosmic consciousness is even vaster i.e. it's happening in real-time
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Edited by g00ru (11/21/13 03:17 PM)
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lessismore
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: g00ru]
#19170590 - 11/21/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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had NDEs on LSD and mushrooms I guess
review of my whole life from 3rd person, felt like it wasnt me
afterwards everything changed, lost most of all attachments to this world and all suffering stopped since I realized I am not my body
and feel bliss each day, and appreciate what I got now :-) dont take anything for granted anymore either
it changes a lot of stuff... no fear of death anymore either no fear left of anything almost, accept death since I view it as a progression state now
new person too.. my old self vanished, but still the same that Ive always been inside
if you dont fear death you are not in a hurry, you got plenty of time to live now and you dont need anything, less is more or so it was for me
Edited by lessismore (11/21/13 03:27 PM)
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g00ru
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: lessismore]
#19170644 - 11/21/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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psychedelics will do that
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all this beauty
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: lessismore]
#19170678 - 11/21/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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mio said: and all suffering stopped since I realized I am not my body
and feel bliss each day, and appreciate what I got now :-) dont take anything for granted anymore either
That you feel this "bliss" is quite a blessing. Many people do not, you know.
But do you really no longer suffer? Not at all?
The great Chinese mystic, Lao Tzu (or whoever the fuck it was that wrote the Tao Te Ching-- historians are divided on that) said (paraphrasing here) that suffering comes with having a body.
So, if you are human, you suffer.
What do you think?
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lessismore
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suffering is only when I identify with my thoughts/desires/emotions
so I can chose if I want to suffer it seems, seems I can turn off thoughts no matter the pain I got
had kidney stones for many months and could hardly lay down due to the pain often after many months, suffering stops suddenly
but if I identify too much as my thoughts I start to suffer
seems I lost a bit of my desires and emotions too, and many of my thoughts too dunno what happened, guess psychedelics freed my mind temporarily no thoughts most of the time, as long as I walk in nature/sit in nature/listen to trance
Edited by lessismore (11/21/13 03:40 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: lessismore]
#19170864 - 11/21/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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mio said: suffering is only when I identify with my thoughts/desires/emotions
so I can chose if I want to suffer it seems, seems I can turn off thoughts no matter the pain I got
had kidney stones for many months and could hardly lay down due to the pain often after many months, suffering stops suddenly
but if I identify too much as my thoughts I start to suffer
seems I lost a bit of my desires and emotions too, and many of my thoughts too dunno what happened, guess psychedelics freed my mind temporarily no thoughts most of the time, as long as I walk in nature/sit in nature/listen to trance
If that works for you, that's great. I'm happy for you, mio.
The Gautama Buddha left us a formula for release from suffering. Not THE formula, but a formula.
I am not a Buddhist primarily because my spiritual goal in life is to embrace every aspect of my humanness as sacred and holy. Every aspect. This includes my sufferings as well as my imperfections.
We each have our own way.
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Kafei
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I can't believe no one's mentioned DMT in this thread. Hasn't Strassman's work reached you guys?
DMT is produced in the pineal gland throughout your life, and it is stored in the spinal-cerebral fluid. This has been scientifically proved, that psychedelic tryptamines, including N,N-DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and other similar compounds, are all found in the cerebral fluid that surrounds the brain and spinal cord, and that the pineal gland, which synthesizes melatonin, is perfectly capable of synthesizing DMT, a cousin of serotonin.
When you die, and your brain is going through the shut-down processes of death, it absorbs the cerebral fluid for any oxygen and energy it can find. In doing so, it takes in large amounts of DMT, and so the NDE is likened to a massive psychedelic experience. In Strassman's book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," a common description of those volunteers who were injected with DMT often are gravitated to use terms like 'fourth dimensional' or 'beyond dimensionality' to describe their experience. So, if you take account of Bohm's "quantum consciousness" theory that the mind cannot be explained unless you include quantum mechanics and how it's intertwined with M-Theory, perhaps these experiences can have some light shed upon them.
Rob Bryanton of the "10thdim" channel on YouTube once explained that the "11 dimensional hyperspace" of M-Theory can be thought of with the metaphor as a "place where all possibilities are contained." So, the way I've sort imagine the "white light" is as though consciousness is somehow witnessing all possibilities at once. It's quite similar to that of your television set. When all the RGB inputs are lit, the effect results in a white screen. Likewise, in the NDE, your consciousness zooms out of the 3D world and into progressively higher dimensions until it blanks out in the white noise of cosmic oneness, the eleventh dimension. It may be that a normal state of mind can only select certain patterns through this "11-dimensional hyperspace" that creates the illusion of "reality."
It's like when a 2-dimensional plane intersects a 3-dimensional object, but in our case, we're intersecting a higher dimensional plane to create this lower dimensional view-point. This also could apply to the phenomenon of consciousness or imagination. In other words, the way I think of mind is as a 4th dimensional organ of your body, you cannot see it, because it resides in a higher dimension, but you experience a sectioning of it within the phenomenon of consciousness, but that is only a partial sectioning of it in the same way a plane is a partial sectioning of a cone when it transects it.
So, this "life after life" business may simply be that consciousness retracts into whatever higher dimension it came from in the first place. Graham Hancock talks about this in the video I'll post below, but you'll to skip through to the 52:09 mark:
Edited by Kafei (11/22/13 10:36 AM)
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all this beauty
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: Kafei]
#19174067 - 11/22/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for that, Kafei. Your post's a bit "dense" for the average layperson like me, but I think I get the gist.
I think you're agreeing with the premise that the NDE experience is essentially a biochemical one, not some sort of supernatural religion-specific hocus-pocus number. Your brain essentially "freaks out" and interprets the chemical and electrical chaos in such a way that it produces a sort of sensory hallucination in you. That doesn't make the experience any less "real" to the subject, but I think it removes the New Age mumbo-jumbo aspect to it.
What lies beyond actual, real, and final brain death is anyone's guess.
Anyone who purports to know is a thief and a charlatan.
Edited by all this beauty (11/22/13 08:44 AM)
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Kafei
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Quote:
all this beauty said: I think you're agreeing with the premise that the NDE experience is essentially a biochemical one, not some sort of supernatural religion-specific hocus-pocus number. Your brain essentially "freaks out" and interprets the chemical and electrical chaos in such a way that it produces a sort of sensory hallucination in you.
Well, what I'm saying is that it depends on how you define the supernatural. What's implicit in Bohm's quantum theory of consciousness is that because that it cannot be explained without adding quantum mechanics into the equation, is that consciousness may be intertwined with the 11-dimensional hyperspace as described in M-theory.
So, I don't believe things like the supernatural or magic are a trivial issue at all when it comes to pondering these theories of consciousness. If you refer to Arthur C. Clarke's third law of prediction: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," then you can kind of get an idea how this works. Of course, Clark is making an indirect reference to some kind of advanced extraterrestrial technology. For instance, there's an episode of the Twilight Zone, I forget which, there's a few of 'em with extraterrestrials, where these aliens have the ability to pop in at any point of the universe from a higher dimension. So, you see, if you hypothesize a technology with access to one spatial dimension higher, then suddenly all the mysteries of what we call the "supernatural" or "magic" become trivial. They are easily done. Locked boxes are opened; future events are discerned; lost objects are found. This sort of thing becomes quite the ordinary run of things if we hypothesize dimensions hidden from ordinary experience.
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all this beauty
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Re: life after life documentary [Re: Kafei]
#19174605 - 11/22/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Kafei said: Well, what I'm saying is that it depends on how you define the supernatural.
When it comes to this realm of experience/knowledge, that's a particular interest of mine, Kafei, I'm very interested in the line between mystical experience (something I have personally experienced in a way that comports well, I think, with others' accounts in the classical literature) and (what I think of as) supernatural mythical hocus-pocus fantastical thinking.
My own experiences suggest that whatever "ultimate reality" is, it is so exquisitely simple and so exquisitely pure and uncontrived that my very complex, corrupted, and contrived waking consciousness simply cannot deal with it. Consequently, my consciousness creates complexity where there is none.
I have an abiding and pervasive distrust in the notion of ghosts, goblins, demons, deities, ESP, and all manner of (what I characterize as) "magical hocus-pocus." My sense -- my intuition -- is that these are complex and fantastical constructions of our complex and hyper-active brains. When my brain is still and tranquil, those things -- the ghosts and demons and the like -- dissipate, as when I awaken from a dream I see the complex world of dreams to be illusory.
That's how it is for me. Everyone has a different take on this stuff.
Very enjoyable exchange.
Thanks.
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Kafei
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
I have an abiding and pervasive distrust in the notion of ghosts, goblins, demons, deities, ESP, and all manner of (what I characterize as) "magical hocus-pocus." My sense -- my intuition -- is that these are complex and fantastical constructions of our complex and hyper-active brains. When my brain is still and tranquil, those things -- the ghosts and demons and the like -- dissipate, as when I awaken from a dream I see the complex world of dreams to be illusory.
Well, this is precisely by what I mean by "how you define the supernatural." As an example, you referred to the "classical states of mysticism." Well, there are theoretical physicists that have made parallels between "Brahman," the "ultimate reality" as described in Hinduism and the "11-dimensional hyperspace" of M-theory.
If you look closely into notions about M-theory and ideas born out of the mystical experience, such as "Brahman" in Hinduism, there is without a doubt striking similarities. It's often said that Brahman is the "unmanifest whole" and these higher dimensions in M-theory reside in "hyperspace." This may be two ways of saying essentially the same thing. It's as though both the mystic and the physicist have arrived at the same conclusion about the universe/multiverse. The only difference is that the physicist found his way intellectually to his conclusion while the mystic found his way intuitively to the conclusion. And the difference between the concepts "Brahman" and "11-dimensional hyperspace" is that the mystic uses "Brahman" to also point to an experiential phenomenon while the physicist points to an intellectual model. So, that the physicist only understands "11-dimensional hyperspace" purely through a conceptual model while the mystic understands "11-dimensional hyperspace" as a direct experience, a powerful intuition.
I'm not sure if you've read Michael Talbot's book "The Holographic Universe." Talbot explores these ideas through mysticism and speculates how such things as ESP or telepathy could be possible through this "holographic" interpretation which is heavily inspired by string theory and M-Theory. In other words, we'll take paranormal for example since you've mentioned "ghosts." Instead of imagining "apparitions" as ordinarily conceived, say as in a "ghost." Most people's concept of "ghosts" are kind of like residual energy or a lingering soul of the dead or something like that. Now, if you posit Huge Everett's many-worlds interpretation, that parallel in time and space to our own universe are myriads of universes all existing simultaneously, so that you could have another universe very similar to and parallel to our own, then what you witness is not the ghost of your dead relative, but instead a glimpse into a parallel reality where someone who is atomically every way like your dead relative only that they're alive and well and didn't suffer the same fatal fate in their universe. Now, I don't hold Talbot to any high-esteem, but I do enjoy the read and how he plays with these ideas. Even Kaku explores stuff like this in his books, and in fact, even he's mentioned an example similar to this one, but points out that because of the phenomenon of 'quantum decoherence,' we cannot glimpse into parallel realities. I have a link below that sort of goes over this, if you're interested. Notice George Noory's question to Kaku, "What if that tuning device gets out of kilter?" Well, this has always been the claim of some psychedelicists.
Michio Kaku - Parallel Realities (skip to 17s)
Edited by Kafei (11/22/13 07:53 PM)
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