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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: SuperD]
#19165804 - 11/20/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SuperD said:
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modern.shaman said: I've seen it on CACTUS ART. It apparently was a pup from a 'regular' monstrose bridgesii.
I have also heard of 'fake' variegated cactus by using 'chemicals' to damage the cactus and causes a variegated appearance however it is only temporary and the later growth returns normal. I will not mention the chemical to not start a 'scams' by sales of damaged cacti passed off as variegated. I've seen some sold as variegated but just appear to be nutrient deficient.
Hmm upon further digging I see what you're talking about here m.s. When chems are used to cause crestation, would you consider the specimen to be truly crested? I don't think I would. Then again disease and other factors may play a role in crestation in the wild. The difference is one is done by natural means while the other isn't. I need to ask more questions about the specimens I picked up as you now have me wondering. I'm taking a hands-off approach when it comes to selling any pups that are produced from these unless I can be 100% certain. Not everything in my collection gets sold, and it appears these may be one of those specimens. 
I missed this post somehow. SuperD I would consider a crested "true" only if the trait remains. If the chemical has damaged the dna enough to consistently produce crested growth then it should pass the trait as well. However if the growth is only temporary and later reverts to normal growth then no I would say its not "true". The chemically induced variegate I spoke of only appears in the "new" growth since it damaged the cells but later growth returns to normal.
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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That makes perfect sense to me and I agree. I wasn't able to get a clear answer from the person I picked these up from so they'll just sit idle in my collection for the time being. I've grafted both ends of one pup and the other one got some rooting hormone treatment and I'll let it grow on its own roots. Should be interesting to see how the future pups turn out and I'm hoping they're variegated but now I'm not quite as confident after reading about what you mentioned. Only time will tell if these stay variegated or revert back. I actually thought about offering one of the pups up to one of the winners of the grafting contest but I'd prefer to see how the future pups turn out before I give anything away first.
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   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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lostinthecloud
Stranger

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 75
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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How about some ID help! One is short spined, other longer. Both common clones of San Pedro? I have read a ton of threads, and without flowering, I cannot tel the difference between various active columnars, except that Bridgesiis seem to have very long spines.
-------------------- Older guy that discovered shrooms in his 50's.
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: kykeion]
#19169805 - 11/21/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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kykeion said: Hey SuperD! Nice score on those VTBM pups! I hope you are successful with them and able to propagate and sell a few (;);)nudge nudge). I have been trying to track one of these down for what feels like forever now. Based upon your photos I think you have the real deal there, which appears to be a clone from zellys VTBM (regardless of whom you got them from). Once again, nice score!
Thanks I'll be inclined to sell some pups if they turn out to keep the variegated traits but until then they are remaining in my collection. When they start pupping I'll be hoping for the best.
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   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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Lostintheclouds they are both San pedro (Trichpcereus Pachanoi). They are not the PC clones and may possibly be crosses but they look awesome.
SuperD I would say those are REAL VTBM and will continue to grow as such. I think the cactisart clone is not chemically induced but was merely a recessive trait that expressed itself later on similar to how some cacti only grow crested after already large rather than early on.
One thing I am starting to wonder is if old cutting have a higher chance of become "strange" due to cells becoming damaged after many years self duplicating. Kinda like cancer are damaged cells that replicate then spread.
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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That's an interesting theory and seems like it could definitely be possible considering the age of some cacti. A lot of very old saguaros show only crested growth at the newest growth point near the top and you know some of these are ancient judging from their size.
  
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   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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lostinthecloud
Stranger

Registered: 01/25/13
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Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Thank you, modern.shaman. I hope that they have content. Those are a couple from a collection of 10 plants (all potted), from 2ft to about 5 ft, total about 20-25 linear feet after three or four years of growth, all from one Home Depot find, and an 8 inch "top" someone gave me. Also have three monstrose Bridgesii, that have grown atrociously slowly - wondering if the monstrose are worth harvesting, or if that would be a sin because they grow so slowly. Looks like I need to perfect my peeling technique and thin the herd, keeping the bases in the pot, and replanting the tops.
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kykeion
Cactophile



Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 181
Loc: High desert
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: SuperD]
#19170747 - 11/21/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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SuperD, I was gonna say that the only trouble with your example is that the cresting could have occurred as a result of some sort of damage to the growth point later in life. However closer inspection of the photos you posted shows that in both the first and third photos the saguaros appear to exhibit some semi-monstrose growth before cresting, possibly suggesting something genetic. I certainly agree with the logic behind modern.shamans hypothesis.
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: kykeion]
#19171143 - 11/21/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
kykeion said: SuperD, I was gonna say that the only trouble with your example is that the cresting could have occurred as a result of some sort of damage to the growth point later in life. However closer inspection of the photos you posted shows that in both the first and third photos the saguaros appear to exhibit some semi-monstrose growth before cresting, possibly suggesting something genetic. I certainly agree with the logic behind modern.shamans hypothesis.
I think what you are seeing is simply a change in rib count which happens from time to time 
I could be completely wrong on this but I would assume that ALL cacti have the crested/monstrose/variegated genetics however it is a very recessive gene and most will not manifest. With some new hybrids that have been released the crosses are with cacti that have dominant traits so some/most of the offspring shows that trait early on (crested/variegated). I could be completely wrong but I believe this to be the case. External factors such as chemicals/radiation/damage causes some normally recessive traits to express themselves or become dominant, some more than others, due to DNA damage/alteration (deletion or substitution of lines in DNA).
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SuperD
Cacti junky


Registered: 10/05/03
Posts: 6,648
Loc: The bridgesii bridge
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: kykeion]
#19171171 - 11/21/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, that probably wasn't the best example I could give since m.s. was talking about successive cuttings taken from cacti instead of plain old cacti like the saguaros but I think the point still remains the same regardless.
It's so fascinating how these lines of "code" within the DNA are analogous to a computer program that has been altered and/or has some hidden bugs in it causing some funky things to happen. DNA as a whole really interests me but that's a topic for another thread.
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   D Manoa said: I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), me if you have any for trade
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: SuperD] 1
#19172475 - 11/21/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You should definitly offer a cutting of that VTBM to the winner of the grafting competition IF I WIN. 
Trout has released 2 new pdfs 
Sacred Cacti Part C (Cactus Chemistry: By Species and The Cactus Alkaloids) http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/
Donate if you can to help support him and his endeavors.
After a quick scan of both the most interesting information I've found was the reported ".7% Mescaline content 'dry'" of Lophophora caespitosa which some have already confirmed thru testing (Urb???). Though this is a low concentration due to it being as potent as some trichocereus however like other cacti is likely clone dependent. Another interesting post was a trichocereus pachanoi with .15% mescaline was tested to be the same content after grafted for 10 months. Confirming another suspicion that grafting doesn't weaken the scion per dry weight.
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ohlone
oh

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 55
Loc: Berkeley
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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This is the Matucana pachanoi that was tested by Ogunbodede at 4.7%. I was lucky to get cutting, as I think this is the first time it has appeared out of private cultivation. Excited to propagate it everywhere!

Edited by ohlone (11/25/13 04:46 PM)
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: ohlone]
#19188436 - 11/25/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Indeed it is very rare right now and I only know one other person that has it. Hopefully it spreads and doesn't die or get stuck in private collections. Right now it doesn't look much different from a pc pedro but it is quite small. Will look pretty nice once it grows out. Great job on getting a clone.
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fiddle



Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 1,769
Loc: PNW
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I hate to have to post this here, but I'm having bridgesii problems. My trich has been outside for a while and recently its gotten down to -15c or so (~0f). This is obviously way too cold as today I've noticed the tip of my trich bent over, "wilted", and its sweating cactus goo. Is the column dead? The whole thing has lost turgidity and I honestly have no idea what to so.
-------------------- Tickle my bassline.
Edited by fiddle (11/25/13 08:37 PM)
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intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
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Loc: EU
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: ohlone]
#19190038 - 11/26/13 12:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
ohlone said: This is the Matucana pachanoi that was tested by Ogunbodede at 4.7%. I was lucky to get cutting, as I think this is the first time it has appeared out of private cultivation. Excited to propagate it everywhere!

Is that plant come from south america?
Look similar to t. pachanoi clones I have collected and they're originally imported from southern america near that area.. It is known to be very potent among few people! ..dried flesh dosages are smaller compared to erowid information of dried peyote as grams.
I don't say no more of dosages how much but I have suprised about the potency but never have get information how potent they can be from that area of world.
I know two clones and these potency are known to be much higher compared to most t. pachanoi plants.

About ingestion, I don't say I have ingested these clones but I have trusted source informed me of dried dosage about these both clones and amount of dosage are surprisingly low to get an experience out.
Clones in my picture will have new growth with similar very small spines to picture of matucana pachanoi. Both clones new grow have similar spines and they are from south america, but I don't know what country exactly. Also these what I have got similar bluish just enough visible coloration to cactus.
There is one more picture about another of these t. pachanoi in my pic proof to relatively strong amount of mescaline. Both clones are imported their native area.
 This is said to be "peruvian torch" what is strong but I think name of plant means it's originally from peru or something..
Could I have same strain pachanoi? These clones in my garden are known to be very potent when consumed.
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LSoares
Farmer



Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal
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Quote:
intelligentlife said: Could I have same strain pachanoi? These clones in my garden are known to be very potent when consumed.
The thing with clones is: either you stick rigorously to its' provenance or the names are useless. It's a case of the most important thing being the tag attached to it. Naming a plant clone "A" or "B" because it looks like clone "A" or "B" from a trusted source is a sure way of spoiling it for everybody.
(and while I haven't looked at it carefully, I think I've seen people here calling "clones" to plants issued from seed. Brrrr...)
That said, IL, you either bought / received your plant from a trusted source that assures you it's a given clone or you don't have a named clone at all. You can test it for potency / growth potential / colour / whatever, give it your own clone name and reproduce it vegetatively, but you shouldn't baptize it with an existing clone name on any grounds.
Just my 0,02€
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intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
Posts: 2,627
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: LSoares]
#19190502 - 11/26/13 05:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
LSoares said:
Quote:
intelligentlife said: Could I have same strain pachanoi? These clones in my garden are known to be very potent when consumed.
The thing with clones is: either you stick rigorously to its' provenance or the names are useless. It's a case of the most important thing being the tag attached to it. Naming a plant clone "A" or "B" because it looks like clone "A" or "B" from a trusted source is a sure way of spoiling it for everybody.
(and while I haven't looked at it carefully, I think I've seen people here calling "clones" to plants issued from seed. Brrrr...)
That said, IL, you either bought / received your plant from a trusted source that assures you it's a given clone or you don't have a named clone at all. You can test it for potency / growth potential / colour / whatever, give it your own clone name and reproduce it vegetatively, but you shouldn't baptize it with an existing clone name on any grounds.
Just my 0,02€ 
I don't meant so say I have same clone.. No no, I don't declare I have same clone because of appearance.. The thing is, my plants are from south america like matucana pachanoi are named after possible for that, I don't know it. Anyway, thing is I have unnamed/named clones, depends how I take it. And the darker skin is said to be san pedro and more pale said to be peruvian torch.. these are said by south american vendor and I have get that information forwards but I don't think I have peruvian torch, it's another san pedro clone I think.
My point is the strong potency talk there and I know also my plants are very potent and from south america. Let's say I just know I have two unnamed pachanoi..
Only I can say about mescaline and dosage I say it very short. I have not dried my own cacti for consumption but few friends of mine who have same clones have dried these clones with only core removed and all another parts left to cactus material
I have seen two friends tripping 8-10hours after brewing 37grams dried of cactus I have also in my collection. I'm sure few grams of weight was only skin and some pieces of core so probably there was total "green flesh" only littlebit over 30gram.
After the evening when I see two heavy weight male friends go tripping from that "one dose" amount it makes me think these south american clones are very potent if two person trip from amount what is usually said it's not active enough even for one person. Anyway, I don't say witch one of these clones are "the strong one" so I don't violate anymore rules of talking dosage here.
I'm not after appearance or do I have same clones or not. I am after the potency and interested to know where comes name matucana pachanoi? is it from matucana, peru?
I doubt they are not same but cause there was matucana pachanoi said how much mescaline it contains, it get's me to think about chance how possible it is I have strong south american san pedro plants.
I was confused about matucana, cause it is location in peru. Also my plants are possible there. I have not get them as any label or anything, just as san pedro from south america.
I know very well appearance doesn't tell is the clone same or not and I have think mostly what my t. pachanoi plants are cause their mescaline content are relatively high, never tested in lab but I have experience and so on.. And I don't lie, feels there is "more than enough" mescaline in cactus.
Anyway, the mescaline amount got my interest to this matucana pachanoi. But.. We all know, in south america, there are lots of potent san pedro strains.
Sorry you get me wrong. I was not trying to say my plants are same nor trying add further compare to pictures, Only and only thing what was got my eye was the potency of matucana pachanoi said there... And that's because some pachanoi I have are indeed really strong with mescaline content too and are probably from peru.
Actually I think does this matucana pachanoi means it's origin is matucana?
I don't even care are my plants same clone and they are probably not but mescaline amount in cactus has surprise me lots and when I see post above with studied high amount of mescaline in cactus and name of matucana appears, I was start to think could I have possible also these south american strong pachanoi in my garden.. I know they are potent, it's for sure, more potent than most t. pachanoi around. Also I know they are imported from south america, another called peruvian torch, probably cause of it is from peru?
I know appearance doesn't tell anything, but strong amount of mescaline and almost same appearance was get me to think about.
My text is speculation and I am after potency and question where "matucana pachanoi" has got it name?
I can't say my sources for cuttings, it's not permitted to talk about them. Also linking pictures was not idea of say I have same clones.. no.. My point more like after the potency of matucana pachanoi and relatively strong potency of my clones. Therefor I was curious where "matucna pachanoi" has got it name cause my plants are probably from same area but I have not said they are identical clones to that "matucana pachanoi".. Trying to make a point of strong t. pachanoi from south america and I think matucana pachanoi has got name because where it is from?
Sorry my output you got me wrong.. I was just interested of strong pachanoi named "matucana pachanoi" ...and because of potency was said I wanted to show I have similar plants with strong potency, there is some lack of information of chain how I have even managed to get these plants, I can try ask further but later on I have think I just don't ask too much from my sources..
I was trying to make point for potency and show pictures from potent plants, not trying to make any declarations I have same clones.
Edited by intelligentlife (11/26/13 05:30 AM)
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LSoares
Farmer



Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 3,209
Loc: Portugal
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Quote:
intelligentlife said: Sorry you get me wrong. I was not trying to say my plants are same nor trying add further compare to pictures, Only and only thing what was got my eye was the potency of matucana pachanoi said there... And that's because some pachanoi I have are indeed really strong with mescaline content too and are probably from peru.
I apologize if I came out a bit rough. I've seen worrying things about clone names or collection codes, and I hate it when people take the matter lightly. It is not your case, I can see now.
Cheers.
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intelligentlife
Noaidi



Registered: 10/18/10
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Re: Trichocereus Growers Unite! [Re: LSoares]
#19190737 - 11/26/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes it's a problem somehow clones are named after their appearance without trusted source tell what they are.
My plants are purely nameless plants and I have not further ask their clone codes..
I have still find out confusion cause lots of people name their clones and collections after wrong factual points.
I trust my sources if they say something about clones, still I have not get any clone codes for my plants, also I have lots of plants sold as t. pachanoi/peruvianus/etc and guy who sell them said clearly they are all hybridized and none of them are identical after few years of cultivation.
It's one big reason I don't label my trichocereus plants much, there are so much varieties around I think mostly they are just close family to each other and obsession to care these sacred plants have changed dramatically after good experience of mescaline. Before I cannot respect the plant so much than today.
Anyway, most people interests are indeed to collect strong mescaline content cacti, I can say I am lucky to have chance to obtained a strong trichocereus even I am not usually like to consume cacti, also it's illegal.
Even it's illegal, it doesn't stop people ingesting them and cacti are probably the area of "drugs" they cause less harm to society and therefor no police or anything don't want to see an effort to fight against people who cultivate cacti.
I can say I am curious to get mescaline cacti to my collection, more I know they are potent, more mysterious they come and I want to treat them good. It's just the feeling when you know you have strong magic containing plant in your garden, it's way more better than experience of mescaline.
I have anyway experienced strong mescaline trip, it's something I can't put words for it. Still cultivating these magical plants what given very good knowledge and understanding about world around me, I cannot do more than respect the plants, keep them as healthy and fine as possible. Now I get better feeling of keep mescaline cacti in my garden rather than ingesting the plant cause I have experienced the magic already.
In my mind one part of the whole mescaline experience is taking care of these mystical plants after experience of mescaline. I want to nurse and respect a plant what has been teach me lots of understanding and knowledge.
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modern.shaman
San Mescalito




Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 3,224
Loc: Zone 13
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intelligentlife yes that pachanoi is from the Matucana area and most pachanoi from South America are strong. Whats special about this specific clone is it is the same clone that was tested by Ogunbodeded at 4.7% in this study. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16889943#16889943
There could be very similar cacti from the same area or even new cacti started from seed that have similar potency; the only thing that is different about this clone is that it is a clone from the study.
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