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OfflineJMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Cheap Hepa Filtration
    #19166106 - 11/20/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Just found this at salvation army used, and the filters
are pretty dirty -


Think I should go back tomorrow and pick it up? What use could I make out of it.

If you seen it, would you pick it up?

Im just looking for ideas for the clean air, it has five speed settings as well, and options for carbon/hepa filter or a
combination of both.

BTW. Retails for 80-110 $USD, Its there for $15 and I always talk em
down 5 bucks on stuff. Theoretically I could probably get it for ten.


--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.


Edited by JMcDoogle (11/20/13 04:23 PM)


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Invisibledutchfunkle
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19166243 - 11/20/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbdown:


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Offline2bittoker
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Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 555
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: dutchfunkle]
    #19176281 - 11/22/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dutchfunkle said:
:thumbdown:



Ignore this idiot.  If you can buy the purifier for $5 and just get replacement filters, you've got yourself a steal.  Real HEPA filtration usually runs $90 for a purifier, minimum.  And real to-standard HEPA is what you want for this hobby, instead of any imitation tech.

Make sure if you buy it, when you get the filters, they are True HEPA filters and not HEPA-type filters in the same size.  HEPA-type filters are capable of filtration down to .3 microns, but it doesnt have be be uniform across the enitrety of the filter, like it does with any filter that claims the HEPA scientific standard. 

Run it 24/7 in your grow room, perferably close to doorways and open air ducts for maximum filtration of new air entering the room.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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OfflinebEelzeBosS
Swing on the spiral

Registered: 06/15/13
Posts: 395
Last seen: 8 years, 10 days
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19176323 - 11/22/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If you feel like its a good deal, buy it. I have a hepa "like" filter running in my grow room 24/7. Its not a true hepa, but its better than nothing.


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Offlinekratom_redmomd
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: bEelzeBosS]
    #19176372 - 11/22/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chaotic646 said:
If you feel like its a good deal, buy it. I have a hepa "like" filter running in my grow room 24/7. Its not a true hepa, but its better than nothing.




Yeah.  I have a furnace filter taped to the back of a box fan.
I figure it's better than nothing.

You'd be surprised at how much crap is in the air.


--------------------
"If the goal is to ride the bike, why is everyone arguing about which bike to ride?  We are all bike riders.  Ride your bike." -Unknown

If I was going to destroy a nation,
first I would destroy its language. -Confusious
¿Hablas Inglés?




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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: kratom_redmomd]
    #19176568 - 11/22/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Right on, if its still there ( probably is )

I'll check out with it, also been looking for a dehydrator there
because I hate buying things like that full price...

Wish me luck!


--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.


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OfflineLordChaos
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Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 85
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19176626 - 11/22/13 09:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey keep us informed on the dehydrator I've been looking for one myself for a while now and maybe some people toss them by season so I might be able to go pick one up around the time you find one.


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OfflineLordChaos
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Registered: 11/14/13
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Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: LordChaos]
    #19176629 - 11/22/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey and Best of luck too ya


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Offline2bittoker
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Registered: 03/09/13
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: kratom_redmomd]
    #19176649 - 11/22/13 09:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chaotic646 said:
If you feel like its a good deal, buy it. I have a hepa "like" filter running in my grow room 24/7. Its not a true hepa, but its better than nothing.



Quote:

kratom_redmomd said:
Quote:

chaotic646 said:
If you feel like its a good deal, buy it. I have a hepa "like" filter running in my grow room 24/7. Its not a true hepa, but its better than nothing.




Yeah.  I have a furnace filter taped to the back of a box fan.
I figure it's better than nothing.

You'd be surprised at how much crap is in the air.



In both of these instances, I wouldnt run them prior to inoculation.  Moving Semi-Sanitized air is probably about equal with still dirty air.  Still Semi-santized air is best in this situation  Anything short of true-HEPA filtration is sketchy.  Many are only rated to 3 micron filtration, and there is no scientific standard to which it must adhere to.  Trichoderma harzianum, for example is as small as 2.5 microns. 
HEPA filtration is rated to filter, at minimum, 99.97% of all substances in the air bigger than .3 microns.  There are no varieties of Trichoderma smaller than 1 micron.
At the very least, make a flowhood using a True HEPA filter.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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Invisibledutchfunkle
subowski
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Registered: 02/10/11
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19176679 - 11/22/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Keepin in classy 2bit, thanks for the good vibes.
Quote:

2bittoker said:
Quote:

dutchfunkle said:
:thumbdown:



Ignore this idiot.




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OfflinebEelzeBosS
Swing on the spiral

Registered: 06/15/13
Posts: 395
Last seen: 8 years, 10 days
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19176694 - 11/22/13 09:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I g2g/a2g in still air. My filter is just running in the room with my tubs. Helps with FAE and semi-cleans it.


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Offline2bittoker
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: dutchfunkle]
    #19176703 - 11/22/13 09:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dutchfunkle said:
Keepin in classy 2bit, thanks for the good vibes.
Quote:

2bittoker said:
Quote:

dutchfunkle said:
:thumbdown:



Ignore this idiot.






No problem bro.  Always happy to help correct bad information. :wink:

Quote:

I g2g/a2g in still air. My filter is just running in the room with my tubs. Helps with FAE and semi-cleans it.



Thats good.  I just wouldnt recommend innoculating/G2G outside of still air in any case but True HEPA-Filtered air.  Don't want Trich circulated by your air purifier.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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OfflineIrfan
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Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 180
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19176716 - 11/22/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I am 99% sure i used to have that exact model that i would run in my room for allergies.  If I remember correctly it uses two filters side by side.  I can only speak for the one i had, the seal was basically crap around the filters and after running it for a while there was dust on both sides of the machine, before ans after the filter.  It was evident that the seal was bad because dust collected in and around both sides of the rubber indicating airflow.

I threw mine away...


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Offline2bittoker
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Registered: 03/09/13
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: Irfan]
    #19176745 - 11/22/13 09:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Irfan said:
I am 99% sure i used to have that exact model that i would run in my room for allergies.  If I remember correctly it uses two filters side by side.  I can only speak for the one i had, the seal was basically crap around the filters and after running it for a while there was dust on both sides of the machine, before ans after the filter.  It was evident that the seal was bad because dust collected in and around both sides of the rubber indicating airflow.

I threw mine away...



Dust in a room with an air purifier is common, including in and on the purifier itself.  This is because almost all home air purifiers include an ionizer option.  Ionized air clings to surfaces easier and more often than natural air.  As to if it wasnt filtrating properly, I cant comment.  However dust is common on air filtration units even on the part that blows out, for that reason.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19176779 - 11/22/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

As amateur home mycoloigist I feel that anything we can do to keep our grow area (and the air in them) cleaner is definitely a good thing


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: Stromrider]
    #19176800 - 11/22/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

BTW,

If it makes any difference, it says on the box -

TRUE HEPA.


--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19176803 - 11/22/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I gave up on hepa filters and air scrubbers long ago. On paper, they sound great. In practice, they don't really help much. 

Work on your sterile technique instead :wink:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Registered: 07/07/09
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Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19176808 - 11/22/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, I've had no contams as of yet -

I was just going to use it as a source of clean, fresh air in a mini
martha I was working on...


:shrugs:

I know colonized myc is contam RESISTANT, but not invulnerable,

plus it would help keep mold from building up over the weeks inbetween cleaning,

right?


--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19176810 - 11/22/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're trying to put the hepa filter in the martha?

Don't bother.

Like I said, in theory, "air purifiers" look good. In practice, they are pretty much useless.

And you don't want to put your hepa filter in an extremely moist environment either.

And if you have mold building up on the actual martha, you have a serious issue with your fruiting conditions.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/22/13 10:30 PM)


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Invisibledutchfunkle
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19176828 - 11/22/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for backing me up on this "bad information," Frank:thumbup:


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Offline2bittoker
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19176835 - 11/22/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
You're trying to put the hepa filter in the martha?

Don't bother.

Like I said, in theory, "air purifiers" look good. In practice, they are pretty much useless.

And you don't want to put your hepa filter in an extremely moist environment either.

And if you have mold building up on the actual martha, you have a serious issue with your fruiting conditions.


This is not true at all.  While the purifier may leave something to be desired, I.E., like a bad seal around the filter, HEPA filtration is backed by dozens of studies and is the scientific standard when dealing with Microbials.  It is used in every microbiotic field from Mycology to Pathology, HEPA filtration is used to create a relatively sterile envrionment.

In treating patients with pathogenic airborne diseases like TB, doctors use masks with HEPA filters on them and quarantine rooms are used with HEPA filtration.  The CDC studies pathogenic disease in HEPA filtered rooms.  If it is good enough to stop the spread of fatal disease, it is good enough to improve the conditions of a grow area.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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Offline2bittoker
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Registered: 03/09/13
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19176839 - 11/22/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

@OP: I wouldnt used a shelf bought HEPA unit for anything but general room filtration and nullification of spore counts.  If you are trying to clean a specific work area, create a laminar flowhood.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19176905 - 11/22/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, you work in a lab and such and such? Spare me please, I've heard this one a hundred times :lol:

You are missing one crucial fact in your theory. Where a lab is designed with sanitation and cleanliness in mind, your house is not. Comparing your bedroom with a quarantine room is like apples and oranges.

So unfortunately, your house does not qualify as a space that can be effectively "hepa-filtered" clean, esp not with a cheap floor unit.

I've worked with mushrooms in my house for the last three years and my opinion is that air purifiers are a waste of time, money, and space.

I have seen zero benefit in practice. The models you can buy in the store for $50-$200 are not going to be able to efficiently clean the air in your house to the extent that it will make a difference to your grows and sterile work.

Contam problems can be solved with good sterile procedure, proper pasteurization of the bulk substrate, and good fruiting conditions. I've not seen anyone who, after more than a couple grows, can honestly say their grows have significantly improved due to running an air purifier in their grow space.

:2cents:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/23/13 12:51 AM)


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #19177530 - 11/23/13 02:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
You're trying to put the hepa filter in the martha?

Don't bother.

Like I said, in theory, "air purifiers" look good. In practice, they are pretty much useless.

And you don't want to put your hepa filter in an extremely moist environment either.

And if you have mold building up on the actual martha, you have a serious issue with your fruiting conditions.




No, I am  talking about using the Hepa as a supply of fresh air on a timer, not
to scrub the air constantly. Clean air from a hepa going into the martha may
be over-kill, but hey... what can it hurt ya know?


--------------------
The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.


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OfflineIrfan
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19177563 - 11/23/13 03:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Other than the possibility that the filter will bring mold spores into your house that weren't already there?  Who knows where the thing has been...

Even if you cut the competing mold spores down by half, your not really decreasing your changes of contamination..  When injecting a WBS jar with spore solution, you can inject 1cc or 4cc's and your still going to get growth because the conditions are right inside the jar.  You cant stop competing mold spores from existing in your grow chamber, all you can do is make the conditions for them to grow is uninhabitable as possible.  (Strong mycelium and lots of fresh air).

If you feel the HEPA couldn't hurt, so be it..  But after the money spent buying it and replacing the filters (your not going to put those old dirty filters in your chamber right?) all you will have done is succeeded in having the most expensive grow fan on the forums. :shrug:


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Offline2bittoker
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: Irfan]
    #19178468 - 11/23/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, you work in a lab and such and such? Spare me please, I've heard this one a hundred times


Why would knowing the specifications used in disease control, mean I've worked in a lab?  Please, stop making wild assumptions.

Quote:

You are missing one crucial fact in your theory. Where a lab is designed with sanitation and cleanliness in mind, your house is not. Comparing your bedroom with a quarantine room is like apples and oranges.

So unfortunately, your house does not qualify as a space that can be effectively "hepa-filtered" clean, esp not with a cheap floor unit.


And the point YOU'RE missing is that achieve lab sterility is not the point.  Cleanliness in terms of practical application is a spectrum, measurable by a spore count not a black and white "dirty" or "sterile".  As I said above, the point of a basic HEPA air purifier is to simply improve the conditions of the room that you grow/inoculate in.

The use of a HEPA air purifier will markedly improve the quality of air, as proven by before and after spore counts and allergy sufferers who use them. On average there are between 1,000 and 20,000 microbials in a cubic foot of air.  Average, non-contaminated households run in the 1,200 sp/m3 range.  If the purifier is only 90% effective due to poor seals, construction, whatever, you've still reduced your spore count down to 120 spores, per cubic meter.

Quote:

I have seen zero benefit in practice. The models you can buy in the store for $50-$200 are not going to be able to efficiently clean the air in your house to the extent that it will make a difference to your grows and sterile work.


I 100% agree that no one should buy at HEPA purifier at retail price unless they live in an excessively moldy building.  This hobby can be pursued without any additional purchases other than whats needed for sterile technique.  But if someone were to find themselves in a situation like OP, where they can get a $100 HEPA purifier for $5 or if they were already buying one for allergies (like me, I have a wicked allergy to cats and my girlfriend moving in insisted on keeping them), then it would undoubtedly benefit their grow, even if the benefits can't be seen.  You can't see an extra flush you might have gotten due to a lack of trich floating around just like you can't see the something not being stolen out of your car because you lock your doors.  At the very least, it can't hurt and will help narrow down a possible contamination.  (Very unlikely filtered air had anything to do with a contam, narrows it down to the syringe and sterilization techniques)

Quote:

Contam problems can be solved with good sterile procedure, proper pasteurization of the bulk substrate, and good fruiting conditions. I've not seen anyone who, after more than a couple grows, can honestly say their grows have significantly improved due to running an air purifier in their grow space.



Agree with the first part, but on the second, you again suffer from a clear case of black and white thinking.  If you are having repeated contams, a HEPA air purifier is unlikely to do anything to help.  That is true.  But the overall benefit is a cleaner workspace, again, and a reduction in the likelyhood of a stray airborne contam screwing up a particular jar, exposed substrate, etc.  It will also invariably improve the likely hood of G2G transfers where moving air is inevitable.  Maybe in a small amount and definitely not worth dropping $100 for no other reason but for the hobby, but still worth it if you happen to see a True HEPA purifier for cheap.

Quote:

Other than the possibility that the filter will bring mold spores into your house that weren't already there?  Who knows where the thing has been...

Even if you cut the competing mold spores down by half, your not really decreasing your changes of contamination..  When injecting a WBS jar with spore solution, you can inject 1cc or 4cc's and your still going to get growth because the conditions are right inside the jar.  You cant stop competing mold spores from existing in your grow chamber, all you can do is make the conditions for them to grow is uninhabitable as possible.  (Strong mycelium and lots of fresh air).

If you feel the HEPA couldn't hurt, so be it..  But after the money spent buying it and replacing the filters (your not going to put those old dirty filters in your chamber right?) all you will have done is succeeded in having the most expensive grow fan on the forums


Everytime you walk into your grow space, you bring 40 Million Microbials that werent there.  I'm assuming OP was smart enough to clean the air purifier first and replace the filters.  After running for a few hours, OP also undoubtedly reduced spore and bacteria counts in his grow area.


--------------------
“I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.”
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom"
― Rabindranath Tagore

Stuff for New Growers
Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video    How it Should and Shouldn't Look 
My Simplified Bulk Growing  My OJ Shroom Tek


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OfflineIrfan
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Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 180
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
    #19178523 - 11/23/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

2bittoker said:

Everytime you walk into your grow space, you bring 40 Million Microbials that werent there.  I'm assuming OP was smart enough to clean the air purifier first and replace the filters.  After running for a few hours, OP also undoubtedly reduced spore and bacteria counts in his grow area.




To what end?  Your assertion that a cheap HEPA could lead to more flushes is 100% subjective.  Show me convincing evidence that this has benefited someones grow...

HEPA filters are made to filter air flowing through them, a cheap HEPA filter offers no guarantee of "trapping" the filtered media. If he has this thing in his grow chamber and accidentally bumps it, or it falls over, it would potentially do more harm than good by releasing a large concentration of contaminants in the air all at once.  Concentrating contaminants on a filter inside a grow chamber seems like a bad idea.

All of that aside, the OP wants to run this on a timer for air exchange.
IME, every time I have tried to run a fan on a timer to exchange the air in a terrarium or greenhouse I get higher instances of trich.  The best way i have found to prevent contams is constant 24/7 low volume air exchange.  I had better luck leaving one of the flaps on my greenhouse unzipped with no fans than I did running fans on a timer..


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19178640 - 11/23/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Irfan said:
To what end?  Your assertion that a cheap HEPA could lead to more flushes is 100% subjective.  Show me convincing evidence that this has benefited someones grow...




He doesn't have any :shrug:

Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
No, I am  talking about using the Hepa as a supply of fresh air on a timer, not
to scrub the air constantly. Clean air from a hepa going into the martha may
be over-kill, but hey... what can it hurt ya know?




It doesn't help either.

Your airborne contam load will be replenishing itself at a much faster rate than those silly little things can keep up with, even in an environment designed to be scrubbed with hepa air filtration. And this is just sitting in your room, so it is also blowing around any contaminants that don't get sucked directly on to the filter.

So it doesn't even really help.

Any evidence for air purifiers being useful is purely anecdotal and has been discussed at length here already, despite 2BT's wall-of-text that he probably thinks is brilliant :lol:

Have a look at my mini-GH, it is very simple and I've had zero contam issues, even in my nasty unfinished basement.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


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AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/23/13 12:05 PM)


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