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2bittoker
Resident PMP Advocate


Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 555
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: You're trying to put the hepa filter in the martha?
Don't bother.
Like I said, in theory, "air purifiers" look good. In practice, they are pretty much useless.
And you don't want to put your hepa filter in an extremely moist environment either.
And if you have mold building up on the actual martha, you have a serious issue with your fruiting conditions.
This is not true at all. While the purifier may leave something to be desired, I.E., like a bad seal around the filter, HEPA filtration is backed by dozens of studies and is the scientific standard when dealing with Microbials. It is used in every microbiotic field from Mycology to Pathology, HEPA filtration is used to create a relatively sterile envrionment.
In treating patients with pathogenic airborne diseases like TB, doctors use masks with HEPA filters on them and quarantine rooms are used with HEPA filtration. The CDC studies pathogenic disease in HEPA filtered rooms. If it is good enough to stop the spread of fatal disease, it is good enough to improve the conditions of a grow area.
-------------------- “I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.” "Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom" ― Rabindranath Tagore Stuff for New Growers Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video How it Should and Shouldn't Look My Simplified Bulk Growing My OJ Shroom Tek
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2bittoker
Resident PMP Advocate


Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 555
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
#19176839 - 11/22/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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@OP: I wouldnt used a shelf bought HEPA unit for anything but general room filtration and nullification of spore counts. If you are trying to clean a specific work area, create a laminar flowhood.
-------------------- “I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.” "Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom" ― Rabindranath Tagore Stuff for New Growers Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video How it Should and Shouldn't Look My Simplified Bulk Growing My OJ Shroom Tek
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
#19176905 - 11/22/13 11:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh, you work in a lab and such and such? Spare me please, I've heard this one a hundred times 
You are missing one crucial fact in your theory. Where a lab is designed with sanitation and cleanliness in mind, your house is not. Comparing your bedroom with a quarantine room is like apples and oranges.
So unfortunately, your house does not qualify as a space that can be effectively "hepa-filtered" clean, esp not with a cheap floor unit.
I've worked with mushrooms in my house for the last three years and my opinion is that air purifiers are a waste of time, money, and space.
I have seen zero benefit in practice. The models you can buy in the store for $50-$200 are not going to be able to efficiently clean the air in your house to the extent that it will make a difference to your grows and sterile work.
Contam problems can be solved with good sterile procedure, proper pasteurization of the bulk substrate, and good fruiting conditions. I've not seen anyone who, after more than a couple grows, can honestly say their grows have significantly improved due to running an air purifier in their grow space.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/23/13 12:51 AM)
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JMcDoogle
A Serious Scholar


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 1,495
Loc: Nunavut
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: You're trying to put the hepa filter in the martha?
Don't bother.
Like I said, in theory, "air purifiers" look good. In practice, they are pretty much useless.
And you don't want to put your hepa filter in an extremely moist environment either.
And if you have mold building up on the actual martha, you have a serious issue with your fruiting conditions.
No, I am talking about using the Hepa as a supply of fresh air on a timer, not to scrub the air constantly. Clean air from a hepa going into the martha may be over-kill, but hey... what can it hurt ya know?
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The ego is nothing other than the focus of conscious attention.
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Irfan
Stranger

Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 180
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19177563 - 11/23/13 03:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Other than the possibility that the filter will bring mold spores into your house that weren't already there? Who knows where the thing has been...
Even if you cut the competing mold spores down by half, your not really decreasing your changes of contamination.. When injecting a WBS jar with spore solution, you can inject 1cc or 4cc's and your still going to get growth because the conditions are right inside the jar. You cant stop competing mold spores from existing in your grow chamber, all you can do is make the conditions for them to grow is uninhabitable as possible. (Strong mycelium and lots of fresh air).
If you feel the HEPA couldn't hurt, so be it.. But after the money spent buying it and replacing the filters (your not going to put those old dirty filters in your chamber right?) all you will have done is succeeded in having the most expensive grow fan on the forums.
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2bittoker
Resident PMP Advocate


Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 555
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: Irfan]
#19178468 - 11/23/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oh, you work in a lab and such and such? Spare me please, I've heard this one a hundred times
Why would knowing the specifications used in disease control, mean I've worked in a lab? Please, stop making wild assumptions.
Quote:
You are missing one crucial fact in your theory. Where a lab is designed with sanitation and cleanliness in mind, your house is not. Comparing your bedroom with a quarantine room is like apples and oranges.
So unfortunately, your house does not qualify as a space that can be effectively "hepa-filtered" clean, esp not with a cheap floor unit.
And the point YOU'RE missing is that achieve lab sterility is not the point. Cleanliness in terms of practical application is a spectrum, measurable by a spore count not a black and white "dirty" or "sterile". As I said above, the point of a basic HEPA air purifier is to simply improve the conditions of the room that you grow/inoculate in.
The use of a HEPA air purifier will markedly improve the quality of air, as proven by before and after spore counts and allergy sufferers who use them. On average there are between 1,000 and 20,000 microbials in a cubic foot of air. Average, non-contaminated households run in the 1,200 sp/m3 range. If the purifier is only 90% effective due to poor seals, construction, whatever, you've still reduced your spore count down to 120 spores, per cubic meter.
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I have seen zero benefit in practice. The models you can buy in the store for $50-$200 are not going to be able to efficiently clean the air in your house to the extent that it will make a difference to your grows and sterile work.
I 100% agree that no one should buy at HEPA purifier at retail price unless they live in an excessively moldy building. This hobby can be pursued without any additional purchases other than whats needed for sterile technique. But if someone were to find themselves in a situation like OP, where they can get a $100 HEPA purifier for $5 or if they were already buying one for allergies (like me, I have a wicked allergy to cats and my girlfriend moving in insisted on keeping them), then it would undoubtedly benefit their grow, even if the benefits can't be seen. You can't see an extra flush you might have gotten due to a lack of trich floating around just like you can't see the something not being stolen out of your car because you lock your doors. At the very least, it can't hurt and will help narrow down a possible contamination. (Very unlikely filtered air had anything to do with a contam, narrows it down to the syringe and sterilization techniques)
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Contam problems can be solved with good sterile procedure, proper pasteurization of the bulk substrate, and good fruiting conditions. I've not seen anyone who, after more than a couple grows, can honestly say their grows have significantly improved due to running an air purifier in their grow space.
Agree with the first part, but on the second, you again suffer from a clear case of black and white thinking. If you are having repeated contams, a HEPA air purifier is unlikely to do anything to help. That is true. But the overall benefit is a cleaner workspace, again, and a reduction in the likelyhood of a stray airborne contam screwing up a particular jar, exposed substrate, etc. It will also invariably improve the likely hood of G2G transfers where moving air is inevitable. Maybe in a small amount and definitely not worth dropping $100 for no other reason but for the hobby, but still worth it if you happen to see a True HEPA purifier for cheap.
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Other than the possibility that the filter will bring mold spores into your house that weren't already there? Who knows where the thing has been...
Even if you cut the competing mold spores down by half, your not really decreasing your changes of contamination.. When injecting a WBS jar with spore solution, you can inject 1cc or 4cc's and your still going to get growth because the conditions are right inside the jar. You cant stop competing mold spores from existing in your grow chamber, all you can do is make the conditions for them to grow is uninhabitable as possible. (Strong mycelium and lots of fresh air).
If you feel the HEPA couldn't hurt, so be it.. But after the money spent buying it and replacing the filters (your not going to put those old dirty filters in your chamber right?) all you will have done is succeeded in having the most expensive grow fan on the forums
Everytime you walk into your grow space, you bring 40 Million Microbials that werent there. I'm assuming OP was smart enough to clean the air purifier first and replace the filters. After running for a few hours, OP also undoubtedly reduced spore and bacteria counts in his grow area.
-------------------- “I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.” "Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom" ― Rabindranath Tagore Stuff for New Growers Where new growers should start: RogerRabbit's PF Tek video How it Should and Shouldn't Look My Simplified Bulk Growing My OJ Shroom Tek
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Irfan
Stranger

Registered: 09/06/13
Posts: 180
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: 2bittoker]
#19178523 - 11/23/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
2bittoker said:
Everytime you walk into your grow space, you bring 40 Million Microbials that werent there. I'm assuming OP was smart enough to clean the air purifier first and replace the filters. After running for a few hours, OP also undoubtedly reduced spore and bacteria counts in his grow area.
To what end? Your assertion that a cheap HEPA could lead to more flushes is 100% subjective. Show me convincing evidence that this has benefited someones grow...
HEPA filters are made to filter air flowing through them, a cheap HEPA filter offers no guarantee of "trapping" the filtered media. If he has this thing in his grow chamber and accidentally bumps it, or it falls over, it would potentially do more harm than good by releasing a large concentration of contaminants in the air all at once. Concentrating contaminants on a filter inside a grow chamber seems like a bad idea.
All of that aside, the OP wants to run this on a timer for air exchange. IME, every time I have tried to run a fan on a timer to exchange the air in a terrarium or greenhouse I get higher instances of trich. The best way i have found to prevent contams is constant 24/7 low volume air exchange. I had better luck leaving one of the flaps on my greenhouse unzipped with no fans than I did running fans on a timer..
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Cheap Hepa Filtration [Re: JMcDoogle]
#19178640 - 11/23/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Irfan said: To what end? Your assertion that a cheap HEPA could lead to more flushes is 100% subjective. Show me convincing evidence that this has benefited someones grow...
He doesn't have any 
Quote:
JMcDoogle said: No, I am talking about using the Hepa as a supply of fresh air on a timer, not to scrub the air constantly. Clean air from a hepa going into the martha may be over-kill, but hey... what can it hurt ya know?
It doesn't help either.
Your airborne contam load will be replenishing itself at a much faster rate than those silly little things can keep up with, even in an environment designed to be scrubbed with hepa air filtration. And this is just sitting in your room, so it is also blowing around any contaminants that don't get sucked directly on to the filter.
So it doesn't even really help.
Any evidence for air purifiers being useful is purely anecdotal and has been discussed at length here already, despite 2BT's wall-of-text that he probably thinks is brilliant 
Have a look at my mini-GH, it is very simple and I've had zero contam issues, even in my nasty unfinished basement.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/23/13 12:05 PM)
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