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Invisibleredgreenvines
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intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness
    #19158425 - 11/19/13 06:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like to think about consciousness, thought, experience, and being.
It creeps into my meditation, and even is an object of meditation as well as contemplation.

My intelligence works with the ideas and it works with the changing character of experience.

Much dumber people than me have significantly displayed their humanity through history, and many smarter people than me have proven that they are practically a waste of human skin.

still humans are not alone among the intelligent, (some humans you could say) -

here is a video of a creature, the cuttlefish, that lives but a single year yet it exhibits extremely intelligent behaviour, and is tasty as well (except for the poisonous flamboyant cuttlefish).

what do you think?




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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19158549 - 11/19/13 07:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's not smart
To cuddle with a cuttlefish
You plan to eat
Later


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Offlineviktor
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19158576 - 11/19/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think that intelligence, consciousness and enlightenment all appear to overlap but do not mean the same thing.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19158585 - 11/19/13 08:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's unusual for you to start a thread/


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19158655 - 11/19/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Cool video, interesting how the smaller males outsmarted the larger ones to have a shot at mating by 'cross-dressing' as females to float on by the wrestle fest.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19158753 - 11/19/13 09:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's a mistake to portray cuttlefish and human intelligence as being essentially the same, differing only in degree and not in kind. Cephalopod nervous systems are famously bizarre and alien compared to familiar mammalian set ups.  It's unlikely that the character of their conscious experience is anything like we imagine, or indeed are capable of imagining, even if it appears like intelligence to us as outside observers.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: Mr Person] * 2
    #19158833 - 11/19/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Psh, clearly you don't know Squiddly Diddly.



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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: Mr Person]
    #19159369 - 11/19/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
I think it's a mistake to portray cuttlefish and human intelligence as being essentially the same, differing only in degree and not in kind. Cephalopod nervous systems are famously bizarre and alien compared to familiar mammalian set ups.  It's unlikely that the character of their conscious experience is anything like we imagine, or indeed are capable of imagining, even if it appears like intelligence to us as outside observers.



I think the lack of precision in the use of terms leads to that type of confusion.
cuttle fish mind does not have the same content as our own, but when it comes to associative memory - learning by association it is very comparable, and when it comes to the extent of coordination it practically surpasses our own.
this may raise the question as to whether a sense of self develops, and that is likely true to an extent, at least as much as for a dog or a bird.

still it is poignant that it is in the same general family as clams and snails, has broad interactive intelligence, yet lives such a short time.


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19161318 - 11/19/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's interesting that you mention their coordination.  It's true it far surpasses our own and the reason is that each arm has it's own ganglion, or basically a mini-brain. To me that's what makes their conscious experience incomparable, and hard to intuit based only on the physical results of their intelligence.  Each tentacle has essentially a mind of it's own, and the main administrative overbrain is relatively much smaller due presumably to having offloaded much of this responsibility to the ganglions.

How would you even compare that to a human unified mind?  True both neural systems are capable perhaps of solving similar problems, but does that really say anything about the character of their experience?  Maybe they do experience a single gestalt sort of consciousness the way we do, but there is enough evidence that they don't for me to be wary.  I'd readily agree that we can imagine the minds of other animals to an extent.  As you move farther from humanity on the evolutionary tree though I think that does become harder and harder and finally impossible.


Edited by Mr Person (11/19/13 07:04 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: Mr Person]
    #19163464 - 11/20/13 03:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

ganglia are not exactly minibrains, they are neural switching centers like our own medulla in which the reticular formation acts to switch off the traffic.

another correlate in our own body occurs at each spinal juncture, where nerves join into the spinal cord. this is just wiring that follows morphology.

Bunched up neural tissue like our cerebellums can also serve to maintain an extended series of impulses, like timing circuitry, duration measurements and rhythmic repetition or pulsing of an impulse (to a muscle group) - presumably ganglia in nonchordates (molusca) may have these timing circuits similar to cerebellum.

Some creatures have no real brain just ganglia, and those do not exhibit much in the way of complex consciousness, just a kind of reactivity.


Yet the amazing cuttlefish does have a cerebrum (a central brain capable of memory and learning) in which the conscious mashup - the experiencing of life (mixing vision and proprioception etc.) - occurs in at least as unified way as our own...

octopi are also able to use suckers on their limbs like fingers (many more than just ten) and they can use them with precision and dexterity and purpose.
the cuttlefish can work the surface of their backs into branching forms which is truly uncanny, basically forming pseudopods at will.

you may need to be assured that they have not inherited the ability to switch on and off a particular pattern, as if it came on a memory stick - I don't think that anyone has tested for that yet, but with the degree of intelligence they already show and the amount of dexterity that octopi seem to have (over each sucker on each limb) it would not be surprising that the entire character of each shape that the cuttlefish forms on it's back is under conscious control.

however briefly that consciousness lives.


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19168321 - 11/21/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think ganglions are more than just switches in cephalopods specifically. The arms have the majority of neural tissue, and the cerebrum is largely unconnected to them.  Scientists have said the arms seem to operate independently.  I wouldn't presume to be able to imagine the mind a cephalopod anymore than I would a space alien or a machine intelligence from some terrible dystopian future.  Based on their biology though I suspect the actual "me" part of the cuttlefish is relatively simple and just moves the arms into place to let them do their thing.

I think this article puts it more eloquently than I could. http://giantcuttlefish.com/?p=531


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: Mr Person]
    #19168341 - 11/21/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

where would we be without our cerebellums?
we would lack coordination and would have no sense of timing.
that is what the invertebrate ganglia provide.
coordinating timing signals.
delay line circuits and rhythm/pulse generators.

they are not semi-autonomous brains, but extensions of sense and control

in the same way that each eye has a retina - we do not say each eye has its own brain.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: Mr Person]
    #19168360 - 11/21/13 01:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

if you think all the time you forget your body easily :-), so the body dies

and if you dont think at all, your body gets healthy

the irony :wink:

we need to free consciousness from the body somehow
so our scientists can stay healthy without a body :wink:

maybe AI... or computer-brain interface
or psychedelics, so they realize they are not just their thoughts :-P

I notice the same intelligence in most animals, consciousness you could say
consciousness science cannot explain yet, even an ant can surprise me

did you know that fruit flies have a memory? scientifically verified

(btw, it is own experience Im talking from, it is easy to forget the body if thinking all the time
there is no course in maintaining the body at my uni, only maintaining the brain)


Edited by lessismore (11/21/13 01:33 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: lessismore]
    #19168410 - 11/21/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i love giantcuttlefish.com
thanks mr.person


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19168531 - 11/21/13 03:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I thought you'd like that based on your original post. :thumbup:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

they are not semi-autonomous brains, but extensions of sense and control

in the same way that each eye has a retina - we do not say each eye has its own brain.




I guess I was thinking of it as a matter of scale. If the retina is bigger and more complex than the brain itself then can the brain really be said to be the center of cognition?  I am seeing holes in that logic with reflection however.  Perhaps cephalopod ganglia are just simple neural switchboards for all the intricate muscles and ennervation of the tentacles-- akin to oversize tires on a truck.  It's a psychology that I still can't even begin to fathom.  Truly awe inspiring stuff that something so fundamentally alien could end up being so recognizably intelligent.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: Mr Person]
    #19173595 - 11/22/13 04:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

while I have you considering the retina as neural tissue (and it is)
consider that the cerebrum partly has a similar structure - yet it is wired to itself, such that activity and images projected in any one part are conveyed to other parts of itself, specifically:

frontal cortex observes the middle (auditory, and somato-sensory) and back (visual cortex),
and prefrontal observes frontal cortex.

like and eye in and eye in an eye and the entire material is resonant and associatively retentive

meanwhile the cerebellum is an organ for measuring duration and rhythms - this is huge in comparison of any other neural specialization,
and the reticular formation is like a venetian blind to turn off the body at night.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: intelligence as an attribute of consciousness vs the vehicle of consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19174955 - 11/22/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"we have the hubble space telescope inside our minds" - Mckenna

infinite depth/ reflections on the self/everything ;-)
pretty interesting though... shrooms make people really philosophical often

look inside the eye of the mind, dont you know what you might find...

I wasnt philosophical before taking mushrooms/LSD :wink:

personally I believe that consciousness and thoughts are about the same thing/closedly related, from personal experience
think jung got something right with his archetypes/collective unconscious..

intelligence is an ego keyword to me, because we are all the same :-), no uniqueness

have you noticed any change in thoughts after smoking salvia?  noticed a big change in thoughts/overview, but not sure salvia is the cause


Edited by lessismore (11/22/13 02:18 PM)


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