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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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A Course In Miracles
#19160700 - 11/19/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Anybody read this book? I bought it because Tolle references it a lot in "Power Of Now" and am 10% through and find the work to be really powerful.
I didn't research the book much before buying it but after some reading I decided to see what was up with the author because the language is from an odd subject/object perspective..Seemed very biblical in texture.
I look up the background of the author and she supposedly was channeled by a spirit for whom she names Jesus.
Before beginning to read this book, that kind of hooplah would disinterest me I think, but I can't help but think this author, whoever made up these sentences, is really onto something. The lucidity of the text is spectacular so far.
It's really a nice read so far and just looking for your opinions either on this book or the supposed channeling of Jesus.
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all this beauty
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: cez]
#19161002 - 11/19/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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cez said: ...or the supposed channeling of Jesus.
What is meant here by the "channeling of Jesus" or "a spirit for whom she names Jesus"?
If she means this in a metaphysical / symbolic / poetic way, I'd applaud her and say she's on to something really special.
If she means this in a literal sense, I'd suggest she voluntarily check herself into a mental facility and let the doctors sort it out.
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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I think she says this in the literal sense 
I'm not one to have any opinion on this kinda stuff, but so far I cannot say this book doesn't come of as divine, to me...It makes me feel good while I read it, that's my definition of "divine" in terms of literature.
I think whoever wrote the Bible was brilliant, regardless if you want to subscribe to the teachings or not..I think the same way with this book,
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Oliveaux
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: cez]
#19164039 - 11/20/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The author believes she was visited by Christ, it is a Christian Gnostic book and very revered in those circles.
-------------------- “To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never to forget.”
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all this beauty
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Oliveaux]
#19164136 - 11/20/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oliveaux said: The author believes she was visited by Christ, it is a Christian Gnostic book and very revered in those circles.
And I could not possibly prove that she wasn't visited by Jesus Christ, just as I can't possibly prove that there isn't a Santa Claus.
Point is, her spiritual insights may be beautiful and true and meaningful, but the discerning reader should be very skeptical about the notion that Jesus Christ actually, physically, "visited her." I mean, like, for real visited her.
There are lots and lots of Buddhists and Hindus out there, for instance, who might say "Hey bro... Ain't Jesus living up there in heaven and making periodic visits to Planet Earth. It's [insert name of Buddhist or Hindu deity] !!!"
I think we can all appreciate the absurdity of reports of literal "personal visits" like these.
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Oliveaux
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Oliveaux said: The author believes she was visited by Christ, it is a Christian Gnostic book and very revered in those circles.
And I could not possibly prove that she wasn't visited by Jesus Christ, just as I can't possibly prove that there isn't a Santa Claus.
Point is, her spiritual insights may be beautiful and true and meaningful, but the discerning reader should be very skeptical about the notion that Jesus Christ actually, physically, "visited her." I mean, like, for real visited her.
There are lots and lots of Buddhists and Hindus out there, for instance, who might say "Hey bro... Ain't Jesus living up there in heaven and making periodic visits to Planet Earth. It's [insert name of Buddhist or Hindu deity] !!!"
I think we can all appreciate the absurdity of reports of literal "personal visits" like these. 
I meant it to clarify, not to suggest she was right about that (i really don't care what people believe tbqh). Having personal relationships with religious figures isn't that unusual in Christianity though, many Orthodox Christians and Catholics have personal relationships and even conversations with Saints (or they believe they do, anyway). If one believes in these figures there's no reason not to believe one could have contact with them. I don't think it's that crazy.
-------------------- “To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never to forget.”
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all this beauty
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Oliveaux]
#19165834 - 11/20/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oliveaux said: If one believes in these figures there's no reason not to believe one could have contact with them. I don't think it's that crazy.
Well, I happen to think it's exceedingly crazy. As in: mental institution crazy.
Again, we're not talking here about "symbolic / poetic" contact. We're talking about people who claim that the historic Jesus or Buddha or whoever literally, actually appeared before them.
I'm as spiritual and mystical as the next guy, but I don't believe in countenancing psychotic behavior under the umbrella of "spiritual experience." There's too much of that shit goin' round.
Too many people making too much money off it.
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Oliveaux
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Oliveaux said: If one believes in these figures there's no reason not to believe one could have contact with them. I don't think it's that crazy.
Well, I happen to think it's exceedingly crazy. As in: mental institution crazy.
Again, we're not talking here about "symbolic / poetic" contact. We're talking about people who claim that the historic Jesus or Buddha or whoever literally, actually appeared before them.
I'm as spiritual and mystical as the next guy, but I don't believe in countenancing psychotic behavior under the umbrella of "spiritual experience." There's too much of that shit goin' round.
Too many people making too much money off it.
Coercively diagnosing people with mental illness is an easy way out at best and often an oppressive and unwarranted practice. Plenty of religious people including Christians have visions and/or dialogues with Angels and Saints as part of their practice; there is a long rich history and large body of literature by monks and nuns who've had these experiences and being monastics they certainly do not gain money or fame from it. Whether or not you or I believe they are true, having an experience like this and believing it to be of Divine origin does not make a person psychotic, even in the diagnostic sense. It may seem absurd and crazy to you, but you are coming from your own reference point and bringing those beliefs and understandings with you. There are many cultures where seemingly magical happenings are commonplace, and no one is going around drinking poisoned kool aid.
-------------------- “To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never to forget.”
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Deviate
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Oliveaux]
#19168403 - 11/21/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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To whoever said this was a Christian gnostic book, it's not. It's new age, in fact this book is commonly regarded as the "new age Bible". The new age movement is not at all the same thing as gnostic christianity, while it certainly incorporates ideas from gnosticisim, it also incorporates ideas from Buddhism, Hinduism, traditional Christianity, parapsychology, physics, astrology, and ideas that just come totally out of left field. It's basically a new take on Christianity that attempts to blend in ideas from other religions.
I used to be involved in the new age movement and I am now very opposed to it, for reasons which go way beyond that which I can express in this single post. But to sum up I will begin by quoting an earlier post which says:
"Plenty of religious people including Christians have visions and/or dialogues with Angels and Saints as part of their practice; there is a long rich history and large body of literature by monks and nuns who've had these experiences and being monastics they certainly do not gain money or fame from it."
Exactly, and these are the people we should trust when it comes to spiritual experience. Not new age nutcases who make a living selling books and giving weekend seminars. Unlike within the Church, where there is regulation and oversight, in the new age movement anyone can claim to be a great prophet or a "channeler" and if the Church authorities do not recognize them, they just claim the Church is in apostasy just like the Mormons and many other wacko Christian groups have done throughout the ages. But while we cannot prove the validity or invalidity of the Church, we can easily show that at least some of the new age prophets or "channelers" as they prefer to be called, are frauds. This is deduced by the fact that not only do they frequently completely contradict each other in their teachings, they even go so far as to explicitly state that such and such channeler is channeling "lower spirits" and only they have the "true teachings" sometimes making such claims through their very channelings attributing them to Jesus or some other "ascended master". Obviously they cannot all be telling the truth.
Now let's recall, Jesus said we would know the false prophets by their fruits. What fruits have the new age teachers produced? In my experience, they sell endless strings of rehashed books, charge excessive amounts for classes and workshops, ask for donations and are often followed by great controversy and backlash from dissatisfied followers.
This is a far cry from perhaps a nun who lived a quiet monastic life, serving the poor and decided to write down and pass on a few observations on the spiritual life for the benefit of her sisters and anyone else who might be interested. This is the type of book that often eventually becomes a true classic for spiritual seekers in my opinion that is where we should all begin our spiritual education, with the classics. Remember, within the Church we are building upon thousands of years of tradition which has proven time and time again to produce genuine saints, not delusional new agers who stockpile weapons in bomb shelters while claiming to have been previously incarnated as a string of celebrities and famous people dating all the way back to the lost civilizations of Alantis and Lemuria (this is a reference to church universal and triumphant). If these ideas sound strange to you, they only just touch upon new age beliefs. Such ideas are commonplace within the new age movement. Many new agers have completely lost touch with reality and live in a fantasy world populated by fallen angels, mechanized men, black magicians and even stranger things which I will not mention here.
When you marginalize yourself like this and set yourself up against the CHurch and its holy traditions, you are forced to live in your own world because most people simply dont share your beliefs. I believe the cultural context of our spiritual beliefs is essential and that is why I only recommend mainstream religions. They allow one to grow spiritually in a balanced manner as part of a community with checks and balances and traditions that have stood the test of time.
Now, I am not going to say you will automatically become a nutcase if you read a course in miracles. There is actually much spiritual truth in this book and one could in theory learn a great deal through its study. All religions and spiritual teachings have truth in them, otherwise no one would pay any attention them, no one would be fooled by somehting that was 100% false. I am not even going to say that a course in miracles is false or intended to fool anyone. It may be a sincere book for sincere people which exists because a certain audience needed to hear that message. I actually have a copy of it, because someone gave it to one of my mothers friends and I have maintained a steady interest in the new age movement despite no longer believing in it for past several years, my interest is part of my general interest in all expressions of Christianity as well as a fixation with the madness I encountered in the new age movement. I actually recall getting some spiritual insights from the book, but that doesn't mean a whole lot.
So my point here is that a course in miracles is just one modern take on an enormous movement that dates back thousands of years, a movement which began as Judaism and then later spread as Christianity. If you take it upon yourself to study a course in miracles, you are really just studying Christianity. You are studying one of the more recent and more fringe interpretations of Christianity but it is an interpretation of Christianity none the less. Given that, don't you think it would make more sense to at least begin by studying Christianity itelf? wouldn't it make more sense to begin with a thorough study of the Holy Bible of which all of the new age movement is supposedly (more or less) based upon?
In other words, i have no problems with anyone studying new age teachings. I simply think they should be understood in their proper historical place and context rather than taken as stand alone teachings, because that they are not. And personally, I found very little of value in the new age movement, which could not be found in traditional religion. So for anyone gueninely interested in a course in miracles or any other form of Christian spirituality, I recommend studying the origins of Christianity, historical Christianity and preferably practicing it in either the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic CHurch. That is Christinaity as it exists today, and that is how you practice it. You attend church, you go to confession, you encounter Christ in the Holy Eucharist, all of these are infinitely more effective than any new age technique in my experience. I think a lot of the appeal of the new age movement is people not wanting to have to commit to going to church on sunday, they feel they are somehow above it. And that is exactly what the new age movement leads to, spiritual pride in beleiving you are part of an elite group who knows "what Jesus really taught". While it is certainly true that neither the orthodox nor the catholic church is anywhere near perfect and some aspects of Jesus's teaching may have been removed or altered, there is more than enough there in both churches to lead anyone down the past that leads to real growth provided they are willing to put forth the effort, in faith. None of this works, without faith btw, doesn't matter whether you are new age, presybitarian, baptist, etc you need to have faith for it work.
So my advice, stick to the classics. You can't go wrong with the classics. WIth new age stuff, maybe it's good stuff, maybe it isn't and unless you have sharp discernment how are you going to tell the difference? Another benefit to the classics is you can discuss them with anyone. You might meet a Catholic on a plane and you can discuss the spiritual life with them if you know about catholicism, but when you start talking about violet flames and balancing 50% of your karma, they will look at you like what the heck are you talking about? With historical Christianity, even if its beliefs are false, it is still useful to know about because it has played such a large role in shaping our world. So that knowledge will always benefit you rather than make you start questioning your sanity, which is what happens when you get deep into the new age movement and start believing your guru was a priest on Atlantis.
anyway this was a long post but this is obviously a topic I have thought a lot about and i wanted to try to sum up my thoughts and experiences. remember this is just my experience and YMMV. I apologize for the spelling and grammar errors, i just dont care enough to edit this.
Edited by Deviate (11/21/13 01:53 AM)
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cez

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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Deviate]
#19168740 - 11/21/13 06:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Such an opinion on a book n I bet you've never even read a page
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all this beauty
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Oliveaux]
#19169082 - 11/21/13 09:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oliveaux said: Coercively diagnosing people with mental illness is an easy way out at best and often an oppressive and unwarranted practice.
Oh please, honey. You will never beat me in the "political correctness" department. I'm one of the most politically correct guys east of the Mississippi. I don't kill spiders. I recycle toothpaste tubes. The list goes on and on.
I wish to repeat what to some may sound harsh and uncaring, but it happens to be what I believe:
Rational, discerning adults do not confuse mental illness with spiritual experience.
If I report to you that the Lord Shiva actually, physically visited me in the kitchen yesterday, I want you to dial 911, gently take my hand, and wait with me outside for the ambulance to come.
Quote:
Deviate said: You attend church, you go to confession, you encounter Christ in the Holy Eucharist, all of these are infinitely more effective than any new age technique in my experience.
I was groovin' with ya until I got to that line, babe.
New Age works for a lot of folks. Much of it is a glitzed-up rehash of ancient spiritual beliefs and practices. I share your concerns, though, re the huckster element to a lot of it. But there's plenty there that seems genuine and not solely intended to separate suckers from their money. As long as people do as little harm as is humanly possible, I don't really care what they believe or don't believe.
That applies, for me, both to the sane and to the not-so-sane out there.
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Deviate
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I said in my experience. I can't really say how well new age teachings work for other people, but in my case they lead me to confusion by being needlessly complex.
I maintain that everything you need to know can be found in the classics. If after you have absorbed and put into practice everything you find there, you're still hungry for more, than be my guest and study new age, or study it now if it pleases you. I am just saying I do not recommend studying new age teachings unless you are already very well versed and experienced in the traditions that new age is drawing from.
I can't speak for all new age teachings, but I am especially familiar with the various ascended master, I AM activity, theosophy type movements and their offshoots. On one of these websites you would constantly see statements, supposedly channeled from Jesus where he would say things about Christians that were absurd and ridiculius. For instance in one message their Jesus said that no Christians today would associate his name with joy. But joy is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. In my Catholic church, we pray that people might experience the joy of the holy spirit. Much of our music is extremely joyful. How they get that there is no joy or real spirituality in the catholic church is beyond me. New age teachings are filled with criticims for conventional religion and they do this to promote their own teachings because afterall if they said, this is just a rehash of what you find at your local church with some colorful additions most sane people would just go to their local church. Instead, the new age teachings make their followers feel like they are special, extra spiritually aware people who are the only ones who understand what Jesus was really talking about. Of course there is some truth to the idea that mainstream Christianity is lacking genuine spirituality among its followers but this is because it is mainstream, not because there is something wrong or incomplete about what historical Christianity has taught theologically.
You see, even if all the mainstream churches adopted new age thinking, I doubt it would bring about the "golden age" that the new agers are always going on about. THis is because spiritual growth actually does not have all that much to do with what you believe theologically, it happens as a result of the commitment you make, your effort and your sincerity, in addition to having good teachers. The fact is that while most people are willing to make some time for God on Sundays (which is good), they are far too wrapped up in their own lives to make the kind of commitment that is required for rapid spiritual progress to happen. They are not fanatics. They are not spiritual nerds. They are not new age nutcases. They are just normal every day people who while they may believe in God, they are not going to give up everythiong to try to "win their ascension" or whatever new agers are calling it these days and that is how it has always been. That is why saints are revered as being special. A saint does not see himself as some special great person, on the contrary as Jesus teaches in the Bible a saint is simply an unprofitable servent. A person who does what they should be doing. We treat them as special because they are so rare among us. New agers on the other hand seem to think that we'd all be saints if only we understood their new age ideas instead of listening to our blind pastors and priests and preachers. I don't agree with this viewpoint at all.
Edited by Deviate (11/21/13 04:13 PM)
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cez

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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Deviate]
#19171030 - 11/21/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You keep referring to this book as new age even though you haven't read a page 
New age books, in my experience have been about quantum mechanics and selfish wishful thinking to get rich or find love etc etc.
This book does not reference quantum mechanics and the likes...It does reference the Bible a lot but that's expected when the author claims to be the hand of Jesus.
You guys are stereotyping this work purely on preconceptions and an unwillingness to investigate it for yourselves..I'm not arguing you should read this book but I'm suggesting you shouldn't automatically assume it's a bullshit money scam just because it deviates from your current belief system.
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Re: A Course In Miracles [Re: Deviate]
#19171052 - 11/21/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Deviate said: But joy is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. In my Catholic church, we pray that people might experience the joy of the holy spirit. Much of our music is extremely joyful. How they get that there is no joy or real spirituality in the catholic church is beyond me.
My husband is a devout, practicing Catholic. He attends a progressive, socially-conscious Catholic church. No one is excluded. The experience there is, as you describe, "extremely joyful."
You're a thoughtful poster, Deviate, and although we don't always agree on things, I enjoy our exchanges.
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