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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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looking for my spiritual path
#19159791 - 11/19/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I may edit/change/add things to this post later if something comes to mind or I find better words to describe.
First a little background..
I went to catholic schools my entire life. Always had a religion class about that school's specific belief set influence my overall gpa. Never felt any real connection to anything catholic. Felt like they always wanted you to feel guilty about something. Being born with sin always got to me too. I mean how can a new born have sinned? How is that just?
One time in middle school I decided to participate in a service, rather than just sitting there fulfilling the attendance requirement. Of course my reasons at the time were not spiritual, but was cause I had a crush on a girl that was religious. During the participation I did feel something, maybe "connected" in a way. My wiccan mother told me that I had simply tapped into the energy of everyone there, and that was what compelled people to participate in main stream religious activities. For a while I subscribed to her explanation. Once I heard from my 6 year old sister that my mother had convinced her that casting fireballs from your hands as if you were a witch on the "charmed" show was possible through wicca, I no longer could believe anything my mother told me on any sort of spiritual subject.
Fast forward to high school. Was disowned by my mother and living with my father's side of the family. They are all atheist. Atheist to the point where they feel they need to be dicks to anyone with any sort of belief. Handing out pamphlets about how people's religion was wrong and that they were dumb for believing, and then starting fights with anyone who got offended. Because of this I was unable to pursue anything spiritual.
Now I am free to pursue any sort of spirituality that I want, and have been doing so off and on for the past 3 years. I got divorced from my wife of 4 years a little under a year ago. This has given me the freedom to really look into what path is right for me ever since she left.
My problem is this. I feel as though there is something more to this existence. Something spiritual, something bigger than what we can perceive or understand. Something that connects the entire universe. Be it a god or gods, the cosmos itself, or any number of other "higher power" type ideas. Everything I read or look into, however, always comes back to having to "submit" to this higher power. That this higher power requires us to submit to it and bend to its will. And if we don't follow the rules we will be sent to eternal torture, doomed to be reborn over and over, or some other sort of "punishment".
Personally I feel like if there is a higher power, that according to most religions loves us unconditionally, it wouldn't want us to feel inferior to it. I always get half way into reading up about a spiritual path that preaches god's love, or that we are all part of god, then goes onto saying that we need to submit to this god or gives a bunch of conditions.
If i were this higher power that loved every entity and wanted good for everything, I would want anyone to feel like they don't need to do anything for me to love you. Or give you conditions for my love or to enter into a desirable afterlife.
Is there any path out there that wont end up telling me I need to submit to god's will, or give me conditions to enter a heaven? I don't need the promise of heaven in order to do good or not be a dick. It would be really nice to find something to believe in where I wont feel like I need to make sure Im doing everything right.
I find some comfort in meditation. Maybe even half way subscribe to the whole kundalini evergy thing. I just hate everything always coming back to having to be submissive to this higher power.
Thoughts?
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dionysiandame
Mischievous Maenad


Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 324
Loc: Samothrace
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19159937 - 11/19/13 02:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are plenty of paths that don't involve submitting to a higher power. Luciferianism, for example, eschews the notion of "worshipping" or bowing to anything and, instead, can require the querent to seek enlightenment through both "dark" and "light" paths.
I'm a hard polytheist, so I do worship certain deities and place them above me but the relationship of worshipper/devotee is fed through the keeping of altars/shrines and some similance of sacrifice. I mean no offence, but many Neo-Wiccans I've come across tend to lack any sense of actual religious fervor and instead are looking for some kind of magical self-help with a little splash of herbalism and folk-magic for good measure. There is nothing WRONG with this, but sometimes we need to call it what it is.
If Eastern philosophy suits you a bit more than go with that. Look into different forms of Buddhism. Kundalini is an aspect of Hinduist Yogic practice. Unfortunately, here in the West, it's been removed from a lot of its cultural/religious context for new-age consumption. Or maybe even consider going "path-less" for awhile and just seeking to connect with this cosmic fountain/entity you envision, they may give you a better idea of where you need to go.
Also, bear in mind that in approaching some gods/spirits, they won't love you. While I have a specific type of devoted relationship to Dionysus, I do not believe he loves me. Holds me in some esteem as one of his maenads? Definitely. But to say he loves me would be folly.
Bon Chance!
-------------------- He (Dionysos) keeps me with all of his other pretty things for I am just another pretty thing in a long list of acquisitions. Yes! And their brains are releasing adrenaline, dopamine, even dimethyltryptamine from the pineal gland! This has serious educational value! Thanatophobia and this N.D.E. is giving us euphoric altered awareness! Don't you see, Princess? We were all born to die! – Finn the Human Pay me what you owe me. Don't act like you forgot. BBHMM.
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19160271 - 11/19/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Brave thing you've done there in your post, Chuck -- spill out your guts for all to see. Particularly brave to do it before an audience of relative strangers. Kudos to you.
Sounds like you've had enough of "submission" in your life. You don't need any more of it. Stay away from religious/spiritual groups that urge/require "submission."
Use your new-found freedom wisely. Hook up with people who don't have a particular "agenda."
Exchange of cash currency is a red flag. If a group or organization wants money from you (we were talking in another thread about the TM Movement -- a good example of this), be leery. If they want your money, they're probably not primarily interested in your well-being and spiritual growth.
Stay on this forum and continue to read and post. Visit other sites where you can find a good cross section of views and perspectives.
Good luck to you, buddy.
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bloodbrother778
Super Chimpanzee

Registered: 10/26/07
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ah this is legit, you already sound like you're on the right path
makes me nostalgic about the time when I first started thinking for myself
my advice to you is this: learn to listen to your heart in other words learn to be sensitive enough to discern the subtleties of your emotional body then it will be your guide
cause the thing is there are a lot of bullshit artists in this world and even if you find the "right path" there will undoubtedly be many there as well so the trick is not so much finding the "right path" but finding the right people and this you must be able to feel, because once you can discern the workings of your own heart you will also be able to see into the hearts of others and then you can understand where a person is coming from and whether they will be useful or harmful to you in your journey
although feeling this is one thing, but listening to those feelings is another so try not to get down on yourself if you fail either - you'll come around, it's all part of the learning process
I'm excited for you, you've got a lot of awesomeness coming your way. Many trials too, but if you keep sight of your goal at all times you'll be fine. Focus on your goal and don't look back, don't even look sideways .
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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Some times I really have to stop myself from the wishful thinking. Pursuing something because the idea is comforting at first. This happened to me with reading a bunch of Ram Das books and looking into Hinduism.
Fell in love with the sincerity of his story, and the idea of having such steadfast belief with no questioning or insecurity. It took me a couple months for the fantasy to fade, and the reality to set in. I slowly started to realize that it was the same as most other belief systems I had looked into, just with a little more mysticism than the western faiths I had tried.
A few books and translations fed my desires while others shown light on the truth behind it all. Noticing that I had to submit to the godhead, even though its an entity of pure love. Rules to follow with punishment for not. Everyone and their brother all having a different interpretation, usually what ever is convenient. Pretty much everything that turns me away from mainstream religion.
My biggest dream is to be shown some sort of conclusive(to me) evidence supporting a school of thought. So that I could really believe and be comforted, not having to wonder anymore. Maybe actually feel that omnipotent love that everyone talks about. Be one of those people smiling their ass off talking about their god to a camera.  Because of this I have to be very careful with how caught up in the "magic" I become, and approach everything with almost insensitive skepticism. Less I fall prey to the pipe dream for a few months before coming back to reality.
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bloodbrother778
Super Chimpanzee

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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19164771 - 11/20/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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we all have doubts, fears and insecurities the question is what we do with them?
courage is not about never being afraid, it is about doing what you think is right even when you are scared shitless - just don't look at the fear
attention is our power and what we give attention to flourishes, regardless of whether it is positive or negative
the evidence that you search is within you, nobody can tell you anything or do anything for you. think about this analogy: how would you describe the color red to a blind person? a single moment of actually seeing the color red would show that person much more than you could ever put into words. same type deal here - if I we're Michael Jordan I wouldn't be able to just take my basketball talent and somehow place it inside of you. I can give clues - but the effort must be your own. What I've learned is that the things I feel most satisfied with learning have taken great effort on my part to learn, but when I am just given something I don't really care about it and usually throw it away.
You've got many questions, they will not all be settled in a day. Try to slow down because during periods of frantic activity it becomes hard to hear your heart, your inner voice - which is more of a feeling than a voice (for me at least) and it is quite subtle so to hear it you must be clear of all this noise. Once you truly hear it you will know what to do and what to "believe" without anyone having to tell you.
Not exactly sure of what you mean by saying that you want to really believe and be comforted. I say be comfortable in the uncertainty - say "ok this is all so uncertain so I'm just not going to worry about it". I did this once on a mushroom trip when I was feeling really turbulent and the results were amazing.
I'll leave you with a quote from Thomas Jefferson:
"Question everything, even the existence of a God, because if there be one He must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind-folded fear."
Edited by bloodbrother778 (11/20/13 11:42 AM)
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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When I was a little kid there were these St Germain 7th Ray people and I used to listen to their harp stuff and lie on my back and think I Am Dead. Do what thou will God. 7th ray was purple light. So sometime during this time I met gurus and got initiations. I think the first one was Guru Datta. From a guru named Datta. At a psychic fair.
-------------------- ...or something
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19168149 - 11/20/13 11:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would begin at the beginning, with understanding a bit more about what you are as a being, and from there approach BEING. It is the center of your individual being, the ego, that fights against the very source of its existence. The ego is a little wave that comes into being, peaks, and disappears on the Other Shore. For most people, all they seem to experience is themselves as a separate wave, AS IF each person's wave-identity were separate from the very Ocean from which the wave emerged and merged with again. Therefore, I recommend a book that is virtually colorless with regard to specific religious jargon. Although, I see Tibetan Buddhist Mahamudra when I read it, the term is never mentioned, and it is the ONLY book I have read 5 times and continue to pick up when I'm troubled:
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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Thank you for the suggestion. I'm about to look it up on my kindle right now 
I've been meditating more and more lately. I've never done it for too long, maybe an hour was my longest. I usually just sit cross legged, and just focus on my breathing, in and out, in and out. Sure makes 15 or 20 minutes go by pretty fast, and I always come out of it in a very relaxed state. I feel like I should be in robes with my head shaved for about 5 minutes afterward, then I sort of come down from it and feel normal again.
Would be really cool if I could achieve that after effect for long periods of a time, or even permanently.
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19178877 - 11/23/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Couldn't find that book.
Anyone have any suggestions for reading material? Maybe something halfway well known cause I dont really want to bother with shipping or anything, just to look it up on my kindle.
Maybe topics like easy yoga positions since im not very bendy, kundalini stuff, chakra meditation would be cool to read about. I just dont really need one of the those books that tells me how to act or anything. I always seem to get to a part of a book where they tell me to be good or humble or charitable or something. I already know to not be a dick 
While I was meditating today I had played some "aum" chanting in the back, trying to match the vibration I was making to that of what was playing. Seems like I slipped into that kind of slowed down, relaxed state I get into after meditating for a little while. Was pretty cool, I'll probably be trying that while I meditate from now on.
I have to look up the correct way to sit . My feet always fall asleep
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19178901 - 11/23/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: Anyone have any suggestions for reading material?
Anything that Alan Watts wrote.
I find his later works (which reflect his gradual shift away from a Christian paradigm and toward a more Eastern mystical frame of reference) to be most instructive.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19178913 - 11/23/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: I may edit/change/add things to this post later if something comes to mind or I find better words to describe.
First a little background..
I went to catholic schools my entire life. Always had a religion class about that school's specific belief set influence my overall gpa. Never felt any real connection to anything catholic. Felt like they always wanted you to feel guilty about something. Being born with sin always got to me too. I mean how can a new born have sinned? How is that just?
One time in middle school I decided to participate in a service, rather than just sitting there fulfilling the attendance requirement. Of course my reasons at the time were not spiritual, but was cause I had a crush on a girl that was religious. During the participation I did feel something, maybe "connected" in a way. My wiccan mother told me that I had simply tapped into the energy of everyone there, and that was what compelled people to participate in main stream religious activities. For a while I subscribed to her explanation. Once I heard from my 6 year old sister that my mother had convinced her that casting fireballs from your hands as if you were a witch on the "charmed" show was possible through wicca, I no longer could believe anything my mother told me on any sort of spiritual subject.
Fast forward to high school. Was disowned by my mother and living with my father's side of the family. They are all atheist. Atheist to the point where they feel they need to be dicks to anyone with any sort of belief. Handing out pamphlets about how people's religion was wrong and that they were dumb for believing, and then starting fights with anyone who got offended. Because of this I was unable to pursue anything spiritual.
Now I am free to pursue any sort of spirituality that I want, and have been doing so off and on for the past 3 years. I got divorced from my wife of 4 years a little under a year ago. This has given me the freedom to really look into what path is right for me ever since she left.
My problem is this. I feel as though there is something more to this existence. Something spiritual, something bigger than what we can perceive or understand. Something that connects the entire universe. Be it a god or gods, the cosmos itself, or any number of other "higher power" type ideas. Everything I read or look into, however, always comes back to having to "submit" to this higher power. That this higher power requires us to submit to it and bend to its will. And if we don't follow the rules we will be sent to eternal torture, doomed to be reborn over and over, or some other sort of "punishment".
Personally I feel like if there is a higher power, that according to most religions loves us unconditionally, it wouldn't want us to feel inferior to it. I always get half way into reading up about a spiritual path that preaches god's love, or that we are all part of god, then goes onto saying that we need to submit to this god or gives a bunch of conditions.
If i were this higher power that loved every entity and wanted good for everything, I would want anyone to feel like they don't need to do anything for me to love you. Or give you conditions for my love or to enter into a desirable afterlife.
Is there any path out there that wont end up telling me I need to submit to god's will, or give me conditions to enter a heaven? I don't need the promise of heaven in order to do good or not be a dick. It would be really nice to find something to believe in where I wont feel like I need to make sure Im doing everything right.
I find some comfort in meditation. Maybe even half way subscribe to the whole kundalini evergy thing. I just hate everything always coming back to having to be submissive to this higher power.
Thoughts?
Everything I read or look into, however, always comes back to having to "submit" to this higher power. That this higher power requires us to submit to it and bend to its will. And if we don't follow the rules we will be sent to eternal torture, doomed to be reborn over and over, or some other sort of "punishment".
to me I try to live in gods name help others i.e.
I am trying to find my spiritual path too after I got very sick for many months, still am, kidney problems but I think it has slowly started to appear now
no coincidences, you got the map on you all the time :-)
for me... thoughts/desires/emotions create attachment,suffering I try to moderate everything I do most of the time no suffering without thoughts
the greatest happiness is from making/seeing others happy
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: lessismore]
#19179042 - 11/23/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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lookin for my own spiritual path i don't want no mothers all up in my bath i want a smilin face with that chunk of bread when i'm pass out low oh will your hands lift me oh no.
if you aint part solution you're part trouble I got plenty myself do I need double?
so chip in on the rent bub what say ya? i may as well be climbin himalayas
lookin for my spiritual path one with out all the wrath if you're an ostrich i'm a giraffe
lookin for my own spiritual path
-------------------- ...or something
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: lessismore]
#19179077 - 11/23/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: the greatest happiness is from making/seeing others happy
If you genuinely believe that, you've won.
What more do you think you need to achieve?
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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I read that poem like I was in a smokey coffee shop, and you were tapping the symbols on the drum set behind the rymes 
I like it
Ive been listening to terence mckenna talks a little more lately. Something about the way he talks makes it very listen-able. I've heard him mention dec 2012 too many times today though, enough of that 
I would love to hear what he would have to say about the world today
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19184644 - 11/24/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Chuck I feel like we are an the exact same shoes. I too am trying to find a spiritual path to enlightenment. I was raised in Christianity and for some reason it saddened me when I could no longer accept it. Almost like I wanted it to be true. I think a big part of the journey is to understand the ego.
I feel like i'm getting there although some of the realizations I've come to lately have terrified me and I've had much trouble accepting them. I hope that makes sense
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19185184 - 11/25/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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totally 
Its kinda like you half way believe the fairy tale while you're still young, even if you have your doubts, its still back there. Then you get a little older, start to think for yourself, and start seeing holes in the fairy tale that used to be a source of comfort. As time goes on you see more and more inconsistencies, until you finally reach a point where you can no longer leech any comfort or hope from what now seems to be the equivalent to santa clause.
In my case this is where I start to grasp at straws. Looking for some sort of "faith" to trust in but everything seems to good to be true. Upon further inspection most are, just a different adaptation of the same fairy tale you grew up with. This is where I get the longing to find something that I can just throw myself into, and not have to worry and doubt anymore.
Wouldn't it be great to be one of those people who is just steadfast no matter what, the comfort and peace of mind that would come from 100% unshakable faith? I suppose I've just always been a firm believer in the fact that ignorance is bliss. To that effect, I wish I was born as one of my spoiled ass dogs I used to have 
I tried to watch some documentary the other night. And the more I thought about it and the more I listened to these phd's drone on and on about the big bang and particles of matter, it became more and more clear. We know why and how the big bang happened about as well as we know why and how god could happen. Seriously, wheres the before? What was the nothing before the big bang? If matter is 99% empty space why am I solid? Why do I appear to be touching something when its really just a charge built between your's and the object's particles that is repelling the two objects on such a micro level that appears to be in contact? Why can certain particles be in the same place at two times? How can reality be real if anything is possible?
Big Bang If there was nothing before the big bang then the only logical conclusion I can come to is that my consciousness and life are totally random/meaningless and will just cease to be once my body dies. There is no enlightenment, there is only tricking your brain into releasing certain chemicals to make you believe whatever enlightenment or faith you choose. In this case the only option I have is to accept that I am a spec of insignificance, doomed to suffer until it finally all just ends with one last jolt of miserable sickness or violent end. Never to see any sort of higher plane, enlightenment, ascention, or punishment after the darkness of dieing, probably in pain.
God So some how I have to believe that there is just some higher being that has always been? There was no before? There has to be something that caused this ultimate consciousness to come to be. In this case my only option is to submit to some unexplainable higher power, do his will, worship him, etc, and hope for a positive after life outcome? How do I know which one is right? How can they all claim god loves you, but then put conditions on it. Refer to my previous statement about my feeling on how god works in my OP.
Because of this I just cannot believe in a god, even though being able to would give me peace of mind, no matter how hard I try.
I'm screwed
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19185458 - 11/25/13 04:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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WOW! All that you just said... Its like your in my head. It's all the things I've been pondering ;wellholyshit:
I think your right though. I think life is easier for those who are unintelligent or weak minded and just go through life on faith believing the fairy tale. I've often harbored that thought. When I was little and my dad told me Santa was a fairy tale I expected he would soon tell me the bible stories were as well but he never did 
It's sounds like you're mind works a lot like mine so you've probably also wondered if the ego is the delusion. I think of this a lot. What if the universe is conscious and we're a part of that like a collective and only our ego is the delusion? You could look at the ego as evolutions way of giving us the power of self-awareness so that we can get up and walk around and interact with our environment. I don't know man I hope that makes sense. I'd like to hear what you're thought is on this because that is one little revelation that just terrifies the hell out of me for some reason
Here's my thought on the God of the Bible. If the God of the Bible exist he is not something I could bring myself to worship and love. It's as simple as that for me. To me it's obvious that the God of the Bible is man made so I don't think we have anything to worry about there.
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19185735 - 11/25/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would be happy with that. Some sort of ultimate consciousness that we just re join when we die. Some sort of ultimate and eternal understanding of the reason things are as they are.
Kind of like life is the rain drop and death is that rain drop falling into and rejoining the ocean
That just raises a new set of doubt and questions for me. Is the great consciousness self aware? Self aware with an ego or no ego? When I join it will I have any notion of self, or maybe my earthy self. Is it eternal or am I going to have to suffer through life and death as part of it?
For some reason my mind is able to grasp at straws, holding the hope that something will click in my head one day and give me some relief, but still needs concrete proof before I'll ever believe anything. People get kind of annoyed with it, I doubt every story and assume everything claimed is a lie until proven. 90% of the time I'm right
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19186010 - 11/25/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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These are the questions that have eluded man for centuries. I guess you have to find your own answers within yourself 
Good luck on your spiritual journey. Wish me luck on mine. Please let me know of any revelation or conclusions you come to. Sounds like we are in nearly the same place right now. For whatever reason it's comforting to know that I'm not alone in this pursuit for answers. Thanks so much for sharing
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19186235 - 11/25/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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half of the question of why is over when you're too tired to care anymore.
-------------------- ...or something
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: lessismore]
#19186445 - 11/25/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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When you are living in The Way, which is what the original Christians called "being in Christ" before the term 'Christian' was used, or living in The Way, which is called 'Tao,' as the Chinese Taoists called it, it's the SAME WAY. When you are living The Way, your actions naturally flow in such a way as to be compassionate and ethical. You, like virtually every Sunday-school teacher-type I've ever met in the last 60 years has the whole thing ass-backwards. Behaving like a Boy Scout or Girl Scout doesn't 'make' you good. When you're good, you naturally behave like a scout. One cannot 'earn' holiness like a badge in scouting, holiness (wholeness) constellates around you when you are inwardly aligned with your true nature. Outer behaviors flow from inner peace. Inner peace is a matter of 'grace' in Christianity, not effort. It IS necessary to 'clean house' to a certain extent in order to simplify one's mind to better receive the subtle promptings of grace. "And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice." - 1 Kings 19:11-12
Of course there is work to be done. In India it is called Sadhana. Surrender or submission of your ego to a Higher Power IS what transcendence of the ego entails. Not every path enjoins transcendence. Some paths revel in purely natural functions, cycles of birth, death, rebirth (The Myth of the Eternal Return). Typically there is a greater acceptance of violence (all animals fight when sufficiently provoked) in these paths, and little attempt to transcend (i.e., rise above) one's mammalian proclivities. One's way in life is not governed by The Way, as a true Christian, Taoist, Jain, or Buddhist might conduct themselves, working hard to practice Ahimsa (non-violence) and Satyagraha (truthfulness). Not to surrender your mammalian, egoic tendencies, based on the motives of the lower three chakras, says that you do not seek a transcendental path. In that case you will be misnaming the word spiritual, and merely attributing it to its lowest common denominator. The 'soul' in Judaism has 3 or 4 levels, with the Nephesh being the 'animal soul,' common to all animals. Embodying the Ruach and the Neshamah levels means that your path upon the earth will be qualitatively different.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
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That's all well and good but what we seek is truth. Well I guess I should say personal truth because it would seem different people come to different truths. You know what I mean
Edited by Stromrider (11/25/13 04:38 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19187854 - 11/25/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am a Perennialist, and I think that there is a singular Transpersonal truth (read, Reality) that only takes on personal attributes, cultural colors, and mythological variations as it is apprehended by the denser 'souls' (psyches).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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I just cant picture an all powerful, god-like being still having petty human emotions enough to require us to submit to its will. If god requires submission to him then that would mean he has an ego, which would make him not a god. How could a god, a supposedly perfect being, have a sense of self?
There just isnt anything in this world that can be explained well enough for me to believe it. If there is a god where did it come from? If there is a higher consciousness in, lets say, another dimension or higher plane, then where did that higher plane come from?
No matter how deep you think you can explain anything, science or religion, there comes a point where you cant explain any further.
It seems as though I'm doomed to a life of anxiety and befuddlement, at least until I do enough drugs and my brain is fried into believing. Half way there!
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19188937 - 11/25/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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If there is a god where did it come from? If there is a higher consciousness in, lets say, another dimension or higher plane, then where did that higher plane come from?
Not to sound arrogant, but if you haven't gotten past questions that rely on simple causality like these, you are neither sufficiently open or prepared to deal with the necessary psychological preparations for an experience sub specie aeternitatis.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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So until I abandon inquiry and submit to another being's will, no questions asked, Im not open enough? Curiosity and closed mindedness are not one in the same in my mind. Such questions generate the introspection needed to rise above the blind faith rabble and find out for yourself the ultimate truth that most of us are seeking. If you just accepted what you were told off the bat, you would never advance further than the first belief system preached to you.
Sounds like nearly every mainstream faith to me. Do people get off on being submissive or something?
I've typed and deleted 4 paragraphs trying to respond, if I think of how to word my response I'll post it later.
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19189277 - 11/25/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You don't have to explain your position further as far as I'm concerned. I get it and I'm right there with you... Unfortunately
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19189286 - 11/25/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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In the mean time I'll be worshipping mother earth like any good pagan.
Hey at least it's something tangible
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19189534 - 11/25/13 10:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said:
In the mean time I'll be worshipping mother earth like any good pagan.
Hey at least it's something tangible 
I dream of the days when I can go camping and meditate in the middle of no where again. Will probably be a year or so before i clear up my legal shit though
Edited by Chuckfinely (11/25/13 10:46 PM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19190532 - 11/26/13 05:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said:
In the mean time I'll be worshipping mother earth like any good pagan.
Hey at least it's something tangible 
Watching the natural world give birth to and devour itself in a giant never-ending blood orgy is where my faith lies, if anywhere. Makes me wanna fall right back into the vortex and get some sleep, sometimes.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19191015 - 11/26/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: So until I abandon inquiry and submit to another being's will, no questions asked, Im not open enough? Curiosity and closed mindedness are not one in the same in my mind. Such questions generate the introspection needed to rise above the blind faith rabble and find out for yourself the ultimate truth that most of us are seeking. If you just accepted what you were told off the bat, you would never advance further than the first belief system preached to you.
Sounds like nearly every mainstream faith to me. Do people get off on being submissive or something?
I've typed and deleted 4 paragraphs trying to respond, if I think of how to word my response I'll post it later.
Thinking things out for yourself is a rare commodity. And yes people do get off on being submissive. They then are not responsible for critical thought and the burden that carries.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19192630 - 11/26/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: So until I abandon inquiry and submit to another being's will, no questions asked, Im not open enough? Curiosity and closed mindedness are not one in the same in my mind. Such questions generate the introspection needed to rise above the blind faith rabble and find out for yourself the ultimate truth that most of us are seeking. If you just accepted what you were told off the bat, you would never advance further than the first belief system preached to you.
Sounds like nearly every mainstream faith to me. Do people get off on being submissive or something?
I've typed and deleted 4 paragraphs trying to respond, if I think of how to word my response I'll post it later.
I think he is right, when your path begins you start to have faith in what you see/experience, and you no longer need to search for answers
the answers are coming if/when you are ready, so this thread can only guide you very briefly
if you are still in inquiry about "how everything works" you are not ready yet, but maybe getting there
I believe in transpersonal truths/experiences too, a truth that underlies most religions and states of consciousness
turning off thoughts helps
for me I submit to that I dont need to know it all, accept what I see, appreciate what I have and do what I love most of the time
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: lessismore]
#19192853 - 11/26/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I do have faith in what I see/experience. That is precisely my point. I have not seen nor experienced any god, so I don't have faith in it. That isn't saying I cant have faith in it, I just have to find it. I have seen and experienced, through lsd and mushrooms, a spiritual side of reality. Hence me even considering anything spiritual.
You have to open your mind and search before you find any answers. We see what happens when you don't ask any questions, you become part of the mindless mainstream religion and materialism.
If we abandon inquiry, then we would also abandon the search. For there is no reason to search when you have no questions for which you are trying to find answers.
I dont think you'll get very many answers if you dont ask any questions, just expecting to receive or be told what is right
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19192968 - 11/26/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Chuck did you ever question your spirituality before using psychedelics? Just curious
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19193086 - 11/26/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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So until I abandon inquiry and submit to another being's will, no questions asked, Im not open enough?
You don't pay attention. You are reacting to your own words, not mine. I, for one, never speak of God as "another being." That is you asking, and then answering, with your own thoughts. God is not defined as "another being," but as "the Ground of Being" by reputable theologians like Paul Tillich. Fucktard-fundamentalist preachers still yap loudly about God as king, judge, etc., sitting on HIS throne AS IF they were describing Zeus, Jupiter, YHWH, or Odin from their respective mythologies. This is radical Theism taken mythologically rather than theologically. There are far more sophisticated theologies available: Panentheism, Process Theology, the Homologization of the Cosmos of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, etc.
Sounds like nearly every mainstream faith to me. Do people get off on being submissive or something?
Just because it's mainstream doesn't mean its ALL wrong. Islam does mean 'submission' btw, and yes, the ego needs to submit itself to a Higher Center, called the Self in Jungian psychology, but called many things in various religions. The ego is like a city on an island. The island is human consciousness, the island is human consciousness, the city is the capital or center of consciousness. The island sits on a 'planet,' which is the whole psyche. The center of this symbolic planet, as well as the entire planet, constitutes the Self. According to the Jungian model, the task is to acknowledge an "ego-Self axis" that connects the two centers, drawing sustenance from the Self into the ego. In Christian imagery, Jesus represents the ego, God represents the Self. The relationship that Jesus has with God is the "ego-Self axis," in which the ego of Jesus works in consonance, in harmony with God, to such an extent that he is seen as the action of God on Earth.
Crucifixion (like every other mythic dismemberment: Ixion on the wheel, Prometheus on the rock, Osiris dismembered, etc.) is about an ego death that results in a new (Resurrected/Ascended) condition of Being to emerge in its place. Now, in Christianity as in other historical religions, these inner processes are depicted as historical events. Alchemy, an esoteric path, depicts these inner processes as laboratory functions (Solution, Coagulation, Calcinatio, Distillation, and others are processes of death, resurrection and purification that occur concurrently in crucible, or retort as well as in corresponding inner chakras, which correspond to outer planets. Every system, religious and/or occult that aims at transcendence demands that a whole new Center of Identity emerge from the practitioner. The ego belongs to the body-mind in Qabalah which must die, so that Ruach, Spirit can ascend and manifest as the Higher Self and more Real Identity.
You sound like you want to equate the ego with the Self, which means that you utterly fail to get the basic point of any credible religious form. I recommend you learn to quiet your clamorous ego so that you can begin to see how the Self, or Spirit, or God is the True Center of creation and organization of Reality. Your ego seems to be in the way of The Way. It's the basic and most common problem. Take the advice of Psalm 46:10, "Be still, and know that I am God..."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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AroundtheSon
Learning to See



Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4,427
Loc: Midwest.
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this is too funny so I thought I should post.
Markos...I was reading your post, to which I agree much, and as I was approaching the end, "Be still, and know that I am God", the kids (we are watching my best lady's nephews) move blared a loud feedback noise like a loud rock concert.
Whoever is running this shit has a hilarious sense of humor. nothing left to do but smile smile smile
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Stromrider]
#19193827 - 11/26/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I always have such a hard time putting my thoughts on this matter into words. This is a subject where everything you say gets picked apart, usually to the end of "you're thinking isn't correct, mine is".
Quote:
Stromrider said: Chuck did you ever question your spirituality before using psychedelics? Just curious
I did. However I was always way more on the skeptic side. I mostly just pushed it to the back of my head, because at the time the only conclusion I could come to is that everything is random and meaningless, and that isn't the most comforting conclusion . Psychedelics opened up the possibility to me that there might be some sort of design, or at least a hidden, un-perceptible side to things. I would like to be able to feel that love and freedom and profoundness that a trip provides while still sober. I feel like that would be one of the highest forms of existence in this plane
@mark:
i agree with the religion not being all wrong thing. I went too far with putting it down. I should clarify its the people are whats wrong with it, not the general message.
To me it just sounds like 99% of anyone who is religious. To submit without reason or evidence. I would of course submit my entire being if I were to encounter sufficient evidence. I watched the documentary Ram Das did after his stroke called fierce grace. In it he tells the story of the moment that caused him to shift from an ego centered skeptic, to a believer. An Indian saint that had never met him before told him exactly what he was thinking the previous night. Some people just require a little push over the edge, me being one of them. If I were to hear someone tell me my thoughts that they couldn't possibly know, I would throw myself at their feet and follow whatever path they showed me. For now, I am unsatisfied with "i dont know" or "it just is".
What do you submit to? Is it a deity or do you mean submit in the sense of "to let go" of your ego? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by submission. So far in my life submission in the spiritual sense has always meant "your will is wrong, god's will is correct", even if my will is to love and help others, its wrong because its mine.
Sure I still have some work to do. Not everyone wakes up with absolutely no sense of self and becomes a bald headed monk meditating all day. My brain just tends to analyze and tries to find the source. I understand the source of everything is something you can never know for certain, and will probably be something I ponder until my last moments. To claim anything with absolute certainty would be fooling yourself.
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Mahananda


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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: eve69]
#19194003 - 11/26/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: When I was a little kid there were these St Germain 7th Ray people and I used to listen to their harp stuff and lie on my back and think I Am Dead. Do what thou will God. 7th ray was purple light.
This reminds me of something you might remember: the Nazir Order of the Purple Veil, who used to operate the Veil of Truth bookstore off Esplanade near Whole Foods. I still remember their distinctive purple robes and the interesting collection of odds and ends in their store. I guess both Whole Foods (in that location anyway) and the Purple People are gone now.
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Mahananda]
#19195091 - 11/27/13 04:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mahananda said:
Quote:
eve69 said: When I was a little kid there were these St Germain 7th Ray people and I used to listen to their harp stuff and lie on my back and think I Am Dead. Do what thou will God. 7th ray was purple light.
This reminds me of something you might remember: the Nazir Order of the Purple Veil, who used to operate the Veil of Truth bookstore off Esplanade near Whole Foods. I still remember their distinctive purple robes and the interesting collection of odds and ends in their store. I guess both Whole Foods (in that location anyway) and the Purple People are gone now. 
Sure I remember them. I am not sure if their bookstore is gone but you still see one or two 'purple people' selling incense on Canal.
-------------------- ...or something
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19195120 - 11/27/13 05:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: Anyone have any suggestions for reading material? Maybe something halfway well known cause I dont really want to bother with shipping or anything, just to look it up on my kindle.
Quote:
Chuckfinely said: I just dont really need one of the those books that tells me how to act or anything. I always seem to get to a part of a book where they tell me to be good or humble or charitable or something. I already know to not be a dick 
Check out Cosmic Trigger by Robert Anton Wilson, one of the best and most thought-provoking books I have ever read. It will certainly not tell you what to do, and in fact the message of the book is the complete opposite.
I've searched long and hard for my spiritual path these past few years, and the thing that has trapped me on occasion is belief. As soon as you start to believe something, you close yourself off to anything that opposes that idea. I think that you can only find your genuine path if you can keep an open mind and consider all possibilities.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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MotherNaturesSon
Neuromancer ☿



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19195240 - 11/27/13 06:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let me tell you that I feel you bro. I can relate to what you wrote on so many different levels now for you main question:
Quote:
Chuckfinely said: Is there any path out there that wont end up telling me I need to submit to god's will, or give me conditions to enter a heaven? I don't need the promise of heaven in order to do good or not be a dick. It would be really nice to find something to believe in where I wont feel like I need to make sure Im doing everything right.
I find some comfort in meditation. Maybe even half way subscribe to the whole kundalini evergy thing. I just hate everything always coming back to having to be submissive to this higher power.
Yes. If you are looking for some spiritual path "out there", there's one that lacks the particular aspect you find to be counterproductive. Although not 100% void of it, this form of spirituality does give some conditions that they believe will enhance your connection and therefore focus on the spiritual connectivity, but they don't say that not fulfilling them will earn you punishment of sorts. This spirituality is known as "Daoism" and it is the most sublime form of organised spirituality alongside the other good ones (such as buddhism and its many forms). If I'm not mistaking, Daoism did evolve from buddhism, but it took it a step further. Look into it. It's deep. Like, really deep! In fact, daoism and it's concept of the Dao (the way) and Flow is what brought me into the next thing i will introduce to you:
In the story of the most famous experience of enlightenment (yes, buddhas story) there was a moment in the story, where buddha, having absorbed all forms of spiritual (and anti-spiritual) understandings out there in the world, relinquished all of them and he decided to go with his inner voice, his own experience and belief. Only to experience enlightenment there soon after. Look at my signature. So much changes after you become genuine about yourself and your beliefs. Lets face it, its all very romantic to believe in gods like shiva and shamanic spirits and so on, the vibe that surrounds them might be of sentimental value to you, but be honest with yourself- do you really have the capacity to believe in these things wholeheartedly? For me, the answer was no. So like buddha, i kept the knowledge and sentiment for these things, I cherry picked the spiritual techniques (such as meditation in its many forms) that seemed to resonate with my spiritual being and just went into spirituality without any specific belief or preconception of what my experience should be. Then things began to get very interesting. So heed the story of buddha and think about the experience I've shared.
Just dig into yourself genuinely and you will get it. The feeling you have when youre tripping was a big hint for me personally. When you see all those spiritual matters such as shiva, god, spirits and so on and so forth for what they are- words with attained meaning. Words are the clothes of your mind, but you are not your clothes. These clothes merely express and make sense, but the real thing is underneath and its yours and yours alone. When you're tripping, you're sort of naked and there's a distinct feeling of "getting it" without the need for explanations or concepts. That's because you don't need them- it's all just there. Once you realise this, what you have left is actual, genuine experience and a process of self-cleansing and attaining sublimity begins to unfold in a cascade of personally tailored experiences that are part of your flow.
Hope this helped  good luck!
--------------------
Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII: "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." "The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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I love Daoism! OMG!!! But it and Buddhism have separate origins. I love in the Buddha story where Maya demands by what right Buddha proclaims his liberation and he touched the Earth.
But don't discount Shiva. He's stood the test of time as deity for those seeking liberation. Myself I prefer the feminine deities like the Creatrix Saraswati, goddess of music and intelligence. Saraswati is The Word. So like at the beginning if the God was with The Word he was with his Shakti-Consort.
...story for another time... perhaps....
-------------------- ...or something
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MotherNaturesSon
Neuromancer ☿



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: eve69]
#19195280 - 11/27/13 07:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Then I stand corrected.

Still, Daoism, in my own humble opinion, is the most sublime form of organised spirituality.
Yes, that part of the story is immensely powerful as well. All in all, the last bit of buddhas story really reveals a key to attaining whatever it is we are trying to ( )
I am not discounting Shiva or any hindu god, on the contrary. Shiva hold immense sentimental meaning to me. I just think it's okay to strive to go beyond names and concepts of said gods and such. For some people at least
--------------------
Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII: "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." "The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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yeah, well look into tibetan buddhist trekchod togel for another way of seeing buddha and all deities the hundred peaceful and wrathful deities - one might question why use deities in buddhism, but the reason is that tantra can take the essence of ten thousand teachings and distill it and make it practicable. but for any study of teachings which takes much time the path becomes the teaching, or one develops a relationship with the path, if you consider having feet on deity of the path then that is a relationship as well as a practice, what qualities should be developed during shanti krama tantra?
-------------------- ...or something
Edited by eve69 (11/27/13 07:40 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: PocketLady]
#19195499 - 11/27/13 09:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said:
Quote:
Chuckfinely said: Anyone have any suggestions for reading material? Maybe something halfway well known cause I dont really want to bother with shipping or anything, just to look it up on my kindle.
Quote:
Chuckfinely said: I just dont really need one of the those books that tells me how to act or anything. I always seem to get to a part of a book where they tell me to be good or humble or charitable or something. I already know to not be a dick 
Check out Cosmic Trigger by Robert Anton Wilson, one of the best and most thought-provoking books I have ever read. It will certainly not tell you what to do, and in fact the message of the book is the complete opposite.
I've searched long and hard for my spiritual path these past few years, and the thing that has trapped me on occasion is belief. As soon as you start to believe something, you close yourself off to anything that opposes that idea. I think that you can only find your genuine path if you can keep an open mind and consider all possibilities.
One of my absolute favorite reads.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mahananda


Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 117
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Apropos of the Daoism discussion, one of my favorite dialogues from Chuang Tzu:
Master Tung‑kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way ‑ where does it exist?"
Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."
"Come," said Master Tung‑kuo, "you must be more specific!"
"It is in the ant."
"As low a thing as that?"
"It is in the panic grass."
"But that's lower still!"
"It is in the tiles and shards."
"How can it be so low?"
"It is in the piss and shit!"
Master Tung‑kuo made no reply.
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Mahananda]
#19197274 - 11/27/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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when Dao good shit when not Dao bad shit
Got this little blues number here called, and I think you know it The Dao Jones
been so long since i been home got caught in a sinkhole in Florida southeast of Jupiter
my little wimmens packed up all my things smoked my herb and drank my blood
caught me playing I Ching thought I having a fling with a chick named Irene I got me the Dao Joes blues.
-------------------- ...or something
Edited by eve69 (11/27/13 04:44 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: AroundtheSon]
#19198494 - 11/27/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, well, synchronicity CAN be negative to the egoic-pole. I've had "instant karma" happen. Your's was just a startle I guess.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19198594 - 11/27/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The problem with religion as taught to kids is just that: God is always right, which suggests that we are always wrong. Moreover, the Theistic God is taught to kids like the fucking eye of Sauron, who sees everything we think, feel, desire, and do - not because God is the Mind from which we arise like little ripples on an Ocean, but more like an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent tyrannical king on a throne in the heavens. Those early childhood descriptions have never helped anyone develop into Christ-like human beings as far as I can tell.
Doing "God's will," is not a program like knocking on stranger's doors with a Bible in hand as I understand it. One does not need to model oneself after evangelists as described by the New Testament's public relations literature, the gospels. One doesn't need to define oneself as a Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. in order to become more fully human. One only needs to choose to Awaken from socio-cultural programming, some of which does come from religion. One also needs to rise above one's strictly mammalian tendencies and 'submit' to the inner gyroscope of Compassion to guide those biological-cultural-social determinants of behavior. So, as H.H. The Dalai Lama says, "Kindness is my religion," and I do my best, although it's difficult to capture a big Palmetto Bug before my wife grabs a can of Raid®. I am not fanatic about insects of course, but I will rescue a rat from drowning in our pool, catch and release lizards from the house, and try to remain civil with the multitudes of self-centered, uncourteous, obnoxious low to no-class people who populate Miami, Florida. No more flipping the bird, cursing assholes on the road, etc. I need to chill out, continually, not strive to walk on water. I'm long past wanting to be a spiritual superman. I do chop wood, but I don't need to carry water. The grass, hedges, palm trees, bushes, and pool keep me doing many banal things, yet behind it there is always Awakening.
Fortunately, I've had several 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head telepathy' experiences (Gertrude Schmeidler's expression), and I know it has freaked out the two people whose thoughts I repeated to them. Coincidentally, one of them, a college roommate I haven't seen since 1976 from Bogota, Colombia, just e-mailed me and said he'd be 4 miles from my house this weekend! I'm gonna ask him if he remembers the event if I see him, but let me tell you that neither he nor another old friend regarded me as Godly, but rather with complete horror! Psychic siddhis, are not evidence of holiness in and of themselves. I am a lot further along in time and hopefully in development now than I was in the 1970s, and I haven't experienced classic telepathy since about 1980. Ultimate Reality is pure Mystery. I have had tastes, inklings, synchronicities galore. One cannot draw conclusions about what happens to you after death if one truly isn't certain about what one actually is here and now. But a life of indulgence in physical senses, or useless competition, or the hoarding of money, the status game, and generally, all the Low Games that Robert S. de Ropp wrote about in The Master Game is not what I want to be about. http://www.livereal.com/spiritual_arena/spiritual_members/master_game.htm
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/28/13 02:50 PM)
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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In the story of the most famous experience of enlightenment (yes, buddhas story) there was a moment in the story, where buddha, having absorbed all forms of spiritual (and anti-spiritual) understandings out there in the world, relinquished all of them and he decided to go with his inner voice, his own experience and belief. Only to experience enlightenment there soon after. Look at my signature. So much changes after you become genuine about yourself and your beliefs. Lets face it, its all very romantic to believe in gods like shiva and shamanic spirits and so on, the vibe that surrounds them might be of sentimental value to you, but be honest with yourself- do you really have the capacity to believe in these things wholeheartedly? For me, the answer was no. So like buddha, i kept the knowledge and sentiment for these things, I cherry picked the spiritual techniques (such as meditation in its many forms) that seemed to resonate with my spiritual being and just went into spirituality without any specific belief or preconception of what my experience should be. Then things began to get very interesting. So heed the story of buddha and think about the experience I've shared.
Just dig into yourself genuinely and you will get it. The feeling you have when youre tripping was a big hint for me personally. When you see all those spiritual matters such as shiva, god, spirits and so on and so forth for what they are- words with attained meaning. Words are the clothes of your mind, but you are not your clothes. These clothes merely express and make sense, but the real thing is underneath and its yours and yours alone. When you're tripping, you're sort of naked and there's a distinct feeling of "getting it" without the need for explanations or concepts. That's because you don't need them- it's all just there. Once you realise this, what you have left is actual, genuine experience and a process of self-cleansing and attaining sublimity begins to unfold in a cascade of personally tailored experiences that are part of your flow.
Hope this helped  good luck!
Yes, you eventually must learn to trust your inner self. Religious rules and rituals and worshiping gods are just aids to help one develop a state of mind conductive to listening. For example, in Christianity there is the concept of waiting for the Lord. Instead of occupying your mind with thoughts and desires, you just let things be and this is when insight happens, this is when God shows up.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: One only needs to choose to Awaken from socio-cultural programming, some of which does come from religion. One also needs to rise above one's strictly mammalian tendencies and 'submit' to the inner gyroscope of Compassion to guide those biological-cultural-social determinants of behavior.
Nothing feels shittier than an asshole.
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: The problem with religion as taught to kids is just that: God is always right, which suggests that we are always wrong. Moreover, the Theistic God is taught to kids like the fucking eye of Sauron, who sees everything we think, feel, desire, and do - not because God is the Mind from which we arise like little ripples on an Ocean, but more like an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent tyrannical king on a throne in the heavens. Those early childhood descriptions have never helped anyone develop into Christ-like human beings as far as I can tell.
Doing "God's will," is not a program like knocking on stranger's doors with a Bible in hand as I understand it. One does not need to model oneself after evangelists as described by the New Testament's public relations literature, the gospels. One doesn't need to define oneself as a Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. in order to become more fully human. One only needs to choose to Awaken from socio-cultural programming, some of which does come from religion. One also needs to rise above one's strictly mammalian tendencies and 'submit' to the inner gyroscope of Compassion to guide those biological-cultural-social determinants of behavior. So, as H.H. The Dalai Lama says, "Kindness is my religion," and I do my best, although it's difficult to capture a big Palmetto Bug before my wife grabs a can of Raid®. I am not fanatic about insects of course, but I will rescue a rat from drowning in our pool, catch and release lizards from the house, and try to remain civil with the multitudes of self-centered, uncourteous, obnoxious low to no-class people who populate Miami, Florida. No more flipping the bird, cursing assholes on the road, etc. I need to chill out, continually, not strive to walk on water. I'm long past wanting to be a spiritual superman. I do chop wood, but I don't need to carry water. The grass, hedges, palm trees, bushes, and pool keep me doing many banal things, yet behind it there is always Awakening.
Fortunately, I've had several 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head telepathy' experiences (Gertrude Schmeidler's expression), and I know it has freaked out the two people whose thoughts I repeated to them. Coincidentally, one of them, a college roommate I haven't seen since 1976 from Bogota, Colombia, just e-mailed me and said he'd be 4 miles from my house this weekend! I'm gonna ask him if he remembers the event if I see him, but let me tell you that neither he nor another old friend regarded me as Godly, but rather with complete horror! Psychic siddhis, are not evidence of holiness in and of themselves. I am a lot further along in time and hopefully in development now than I was in the 1970s, and I haven't experienced classic telepathy since about 1980. Ultimate Reality is pure Mystery. I have had tastes, inklings, synchronicities galore. One cannot draw conclusions about what happens to you after death if one truly isn't certain about what one actually is here and now. But a life of indulgence in physical senses, or useless competition, or the hoarding of money, the status game, and generally, all the Low Games that Robert S. de Ropp wrote about in The Master Game is not what I want to be about. http://www.livereal.com/spiritual_arena/spiritual_members/master_game.htm
Well said man 
I think the whole telling me my thoughts thing is really just a romanticized idea in my head about the super natural, with the story that Ram Das told just having the biggest impact. I've never experienced anything really spiritual or super natural, and I can admit my longing for such an occurrence is probably unhealthy and could lead me down any multitude of incorrect paths, as well as creating far fetched expectations of what the spiritual world can give me.
I've done enough stretches and what not now that I was finally able to get into the lotus posture last night while meditating. Im very not-bendy . That was probably the quickest half hour of meditation Ive ever been through. Gets easier and easier every day. Would be cool to find an extremely beginner yoga/meditation group around me, but detroit isnt the best place to find anything like that lol
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Spacerific
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19200910 - 11/28/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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OP, this will require little effort on your part, yet likely bring good vibes and insights:
- Eckhart Tolle (just search his lectures on youtube) - Alan Watts (different approach, same topic, great man awesome talks)
This may require more effort, but any effort expended will surely bring amazing rewards: - Show up for a Santo Daime ceremony or a Peyote sweat lodge. I think your mother was partly right. The "being in a group" share experience is one thing, the "believing in Jesus" or Santa or fireballs for that matter, is quite another. Show up to Baptist church, spend an hour there with everybody singing happily around you, then see how you feel. When they say jesus, lord and all that, just assume they talk about psychedelics. For best results, actually take a small dose of shrooms before going there 
- Start or join a drum circle. 1-2 hours in you'll feel some very fly stuff happening.
Generally the "belief" is one thing, it can be done more or less from an armchair or a couch, the same armchair or couch that has you feel your life is empty and meaningless.
The EXPERIENCE of unity, something more than just material happening, that's a different matter. That can be reached by awareness like Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts recommend, and also (IMO more easily) via psychedelics, and/or as a member of larger groups that actively work at having such an experience. Just find some groups like that and try them out, see which ones you like. My fave is combining these two, tripping on something good, with others, in a "sacred space" kind of context.
Don't let the weird shit some groups may believe, distract you from the practice. You're there for the practice (or the psychoactive sacraments), not the retarded supersitions. Like when banging a Catholic girl, you're there for the not for Jesus
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19201125 - 11/28/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: One only needs to choose to Awaken from socio-cultural programming, some of which does come from religion. One also needs to rise above one's strictly mammalian tendencies and 'submit' to the inner gyroscope of Compassion to guide those biological-cultural-social determinants of behavior.
Nothing feels shittier than an asshole.
We all HAVE an asshole, but we do not have to identify with the survival-based motive that is associated with that plexus. We get scared by a brush with death, (Thanatos), and we shit our pants. Muladhara stimulation-fear-excretion-death (of our plant and animal food), decay, stench (affecting our primitive reptilian smell-brain), elongated turds reminiscent of snakes, fear of snakes, Kundalini reference, poisonous snakes (cycling back to death), snake with tail-in-mouth (Ouroboros) as symbol of Eternity, (into which venomous snake will send us like the Little Prince), etc., etc.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19201155 - 11/28/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks. Consider the Siddha Pose (half-lotus), especially in the morning. After a day of moving around, the Full Lotus might be a bit easier. Try a cushion to raise your spine, or conversely, a ball of fabric user your ankles. Some Hatha Yoga asanas to stretch ligaments and tendons can also make sitting in these asanas less painful, especially at the outset.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Deviate
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Quote:
I've never experienced anything really spiritual or super natural, and I can admit my longing for such an occurrence is probably unhealthy and could lead me down any multitude of incorrect paths, as well as creating far fetched expectations of what the spiritual world can give me.
Everyone starts out with far fetched expectations of what the spiritual path is going to be like and then reality confronts and destroys them.
The longing for the super natural is anything but unhealthy, on the contrary if you direct it toward a search for enlightenment, it is the most healthy thing you can be feeling. You must long for enlightenment, or else you will never bother to dismantle all the programming and heal the trauma you have picked up throughout your life. But enlightenment itself is not super natural. Its just what is natural. Its the unenlightened state that is unnatural, which makes it seem as if enlightenment is super natural.
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Deviate
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Spacerific]
#19202615 - 11/28/13 09:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
. Show up to Baptist church, spend an hour there with everybody singing happily around you, then see how you feel. When they say jesus, lord and all that, just assume they talk about psychedelics. For best results, actually take a small dose of shrooms before going there 
I'm all about going to church on shrooms but I must say, you do not want to be replacing Jesus with psychedelics. If you worship a plant or a chemical, you are committing what the Bible calls "idolatry" and you are putting yourself lower down than Biblical literalists. We must seek what is Eternal, not what is transitory. What is transitory will always pass away and thus is not worth seeking. Psychedelics and the experience they produce are transitory. That's not to say they aren't valuable, they can be extremely valuable in the sense that they point one in the direction of eternal things. But at some point one must begin seeking those eternal things rather than being satisfied with a temporary glimpse of them. Worshipping psychedelics is like someone who goes to church and worships God for an hour on sunday but then never thinks of Him during the rest the week.
Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, and the Lord, I AM, or "He Who Is" are meant to represent to us, that which is eternal. Thats why the Bible describes Jesus as being the firstborn, before all creation and God as having no beginning and no end. This is what you want to be worshiping, so why would you want to replace the eternal with something transient like psychedelics? We are supposed to go from psychedelics to God, not from God to psychedelics.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Deviate]
#19203430 - 11/29/13 02:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sounds to me like you are replacing one pointing finger with another. Might as well say the only true path to touching the eternal is my middle finger flying high in the sky.
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Spacerific
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Deviate]
#19203486 - 11/29/13 03:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
. Show up to Baptist church, spend an hour there with everybody singing happily around you, then see how you feel. When they say jesus, lord and all that, just assume they talk about psychedelics. For best results, actually take a small dose of shrooms before going there 
I'm all about going to church on shrooms but I must say, you do not want to be replacing Jesus with psychedelics. If you worship a plant or a chemical, you are committing what the Bible calls "idolatry" and you are putting yourself lower down than Biblical literalists. We must seek what is Eternal, not what is transitory. What is transitory will always pass away and thus is not worth seeking. Psychedelics and the experience they produce are transitory. That's not to say they aren't valuable, they can be extremely valuable in the sense that they point one in the direction of eternal things. But at some point one must begin seeking those eternal things rather than being satisfied with a temporary glimpse of them. Worshipping psychedelics is like someone who goes to church and worships God for an hour on sunday but then never thinks of Him during the rest the week.
Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, and the Lord, I AM, or "He Who Is" are meant to represent to us, that which is eternal. Thats why the Bible describes Jesus as being the firstborn, before all creation and God as having no beginning and no end. This is what you want to be worshiping, so why would you want to replace the eternal with something transient like psychedelics? We are supposed to go from psychedelics to God, not from God to psychedelics.
I don't worship psychedelics, and in fact to keep a healthy mindset I don't worship anything. If anything I celebrate.
The psychedelics, just like the ceremony, church, robes and people, like the whole wide blue planet in fact, are just tools that allow us to feel a certain kind of inner experience. They are a door to walk through and explore beyond, and a very effective, quality door at that.
Jesus? 
The whole point of taking shrooms, going to any kind of ceremony or group event, is IMO to feel that ineffable something, that you can't "get" from a text, because it's a non-text, non-word experience. It's a meat and emotions and molecules thing, like an orgasm. Immediate.
The combination of music and proper molecules will help reset the system (body and mind) back to natural rhythms, firing in harmony on all cylinders. The experience comes with music and molecules to tune how we work, in real life, day to day.
What you call Jesus on the other hand, seems to me those are words. Abstractions, and not immediately felt at all. I do support the replacing of theoretical abstractions, with real genuine actions, experiences, molecules, rituals like spending a few hours soaking up the music, becoming one with the group and indeed the universe.
IMO psychedelics are like making love to an actual woman, whereas the texts, the Bible, Qur'an and other similar texts are more like a printed copy of Hustler. Same topic, VERY different experience. One is immediate and needs little explanations, the other is quite removed, and not at all interactive.
I have a rather poor opinion of the Bible, and the Qur'an and Torah for that matter, because their idea of a good time seems to be quite retarded. Instead of take 5 grams and sing with your fellow humans feeling the awesome in yourself and in them, it's show up sit your ass down and listen to some dude mumble from this book. Or show up at Mecca, spin around a rock.
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Deviate]
#19205320 - 11/29/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: The longing for the super natural is anything but unhealthy, on the contrary if you direct it toward a search for enlightenment, it is the most healthy thing you can be feeling. You must long for enlightenment, or else you will never bother to dismantle all the programming and heal the trauma you have picked up throughout your life.
Hmm...
Highly questionable, in my humble opinion.
I know some very astute and very insightful Buddhists who will tell you that your "longings" are not what's gonna open the magic door for you. As a matter of fact (or so some say), your "longing" for enlightenment is as much an attachment as, say, your "longing" for Doritos Corn Chips.
Whatever.
All of us are only guessing when it comes to this shit.
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Mahananda


Registered: 08/18/12
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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To put a somewhat finer point on this, Buddhism proscribes only unskillful desires, not all desires. Generally, a desire for liberation (the desire that motivated Siddhartha Gautama) will be a skillful desire. It could, of course, be taken to a morbid extreme that would remove it from the ambit of skillful desire / action, but the typical lay or monastic Buddhist would not, despite actively seeking liberation, fall into that category.
Quote:
Chuckfinely said: I think the whole telling me my thoughts thing is really just a romanticized idea in my head about the super natural, with the story that Ram Das told just having the biggest impact. I've never experienced anything really spiritual or super natural, and I can admit my longing for such an occurrence is probably unhealthy and could lead me down any multitude of incorrect paths, as well as creating far fetched expectations of what the spiritual world can give me.
The earth beneath your feet, the heavens above, the possibility of love, all these things are, in the final analysis, miraculous, and they all surround you every day. There was a movie from the early 80s called My Dinner With Andre, about, of all things, a conversation between old friends at a restaurant that had a line that stuck with me on this:
"Tell me, why do we require a trip to Mount Everest in order to be able to perceive one moment of reality? I mean... I mean, is Mount Everest more "real" than New York? I mean, isn't New York "real"? I mean, you see, I think if you could become fully aware of what existed in the cigar store next door to this restaurant, I think it would just blow your [mind]! I mean... I mean, isn't there just as much "reality" to be perceived in the cigar store as there is on Mount Everest?"
The point, I suppose, is not to miss what's right before you in a vain attempt to experience "rabbit from a hat" tricks, which, compared with the amazing experience of life, and especially the possibility of insight, are utterly trivial.
Edited by Mahananda (11/29/13 06:41 PM)
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Mahananda]
#19205992 - 11/29/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree with the above, to a great extent.
The only note I'd like to make is that in normal human un-psychedelic form so to say, we may simply lack the organs to perceive what's in that cigar store, in the present moment. Anyone who's played with some acid or shrooms or aya, will know that one has never quite opened their eyes to see, their nostrils to smell, tongue to taste or receptors to touch, quite like in those moments. Nor have they sent the impressions from the senses, so deep in a fully activated brain / heart, to actually "get" it.
True one can't trip all their life, but it is IMO important to trip at least once, or even better regularly, to train that muscle, of feeling, sensing the deeper layers of reality. To see what's possible, and have a framework for comparison.
Then as Alan Watts says, once one got the message, put down the phone.
I'm sure long long decades of meditation can deliver it all just as well as a few acid trips
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19206760 - 11/29/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chuckfinely said: I may edit/change/add things to this post later if something comes to mind or I find better words to describe.
First a little background..
I went to catholic schools my entire life. Always had a religion class about that school's specific belief set influence my overall gpa. Never felt any real connection to anything catholic. Felt like they always wanted you to feel guilty about something. Being born with sin always got to me too. I mean how can a new born have sinned? How is that just?
One time in middle school I decided to participate in a service, rather than just sitting there fulfilling the attendance requirement. Of course my reasons at the time were not spiritual, but was cause I had a crush on a girl that was religious. During the participation I did feel something, maybe "connected" in a way. My wiccan mother told me that I had simply tapped into the energy of everyone there, and that was what compelled people to participate in main stream religious activities. For a while I subscribed to her explanation. Once I heard from my 6 year old sister that my mother had convinced her that casting fireballs from your hands as if you were a witch on the "charmed" show was possible through wicca, I no longer could believe anything my mother told me on any sort of spiritual subject.
Fast forward to high school. Was disowned by my mother and living with my father's side of the family. They are all atheist. Atheist to the point where they feel they need to be dicks to anyone with any sort of belief. Handing out pamphlets about how people's religion was wrong and that they were dumb for believing, and then starting fights with anyone who got offended. Because of this I was unable to pursue anything spiritual.
Now I am free to pursue any sort of spirituality that I want, and have been doing so off and on for the past 3 years. I got divorced from my wife of 4 years a little under a year ago. This has given me the freedom to really look into what path is right for me ever since she left.
My problem is this. I feel as though there is something more to this existence. Something spiritual, something bigger than what we can perceive or understand. Something that connects the entire universe. Be it a god or gods, the cosmos itself, or any number of other "higher power" type ideas. Everything I read or look into, however, always comes back to having to "submit" to this higher power. That this higher power requires us to submit to it and bend to its will. And if we don't follow the rules we will be sent to eternal torture, doomed to be reborn over and over, or some other sort of "punishment".
Personally I feel like if there is a higher power, that according to most religions loves us unconditionally, it wouldn't want us to feel inferior to it. I always get half way into reading up about a spiritual path that preaches god's love, or that we are all part of god, then goes onto saying that we need to submit to this god or gives a bunch of conditions.
If i were this higher power that loved every entity and wanted good for everything, I would want anyone to feel like they don't need to do anything for me to love you. Or give you conditions for my love or to enter into a desirable afterlife.
Is there any path out there that wont end up telling me I need to submit to god's will, or give me conditions to enter a heaven? I don't need the promise of heaven in order to do good or not be a dick. It would be really nice to find something to believe in where I wont feel like I need to make sure Im doing everything right.
I find some comfort in meditation. Maybe even half way subscribe to the whole kundalini evergy thing. I just hate everything always coming back to having to be submissive to this higher power.
Thoughts?
Sure, look within. Begin with meditation and see where that takes you, imo, you will inevitably arrive at an obstacle that is confusing and you will come back here and post about it and that will tell people where/what you should go/do next.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Spacerific]
#19207861 - 11/30/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Spacerific said:
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Deviate said:
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. Show up to Baptist church, spend an hour there with everybody singing happily around you, then see how you feel. When they say jesus, lord and all that, just assume they talk about psychedelics. For best results, actually take a small dose of shrooms before going there 
I'm all about going to church on shrooms but I must say, you do not want to be replacing Jesus with psychedelics. If you worship a plant or a chemical, you are committing what the Bible calls "idolatry" and you are putting yourself lower down than Biblical literalists. We must seek what is Eternal, not what is transitory. What is transitory will always pass away and thus is not worth seeking. Psychedelics and the experience they produce are transitory. That's not to say they aren't valuable, they can be extremely valuable in the sense that they point one in the direction of eternal things. But at some point one must begin seeking those eternal things rather than being satisfied with a temporary glimpse of them. Worshipping psychedelics is like someone who goes to church and worships God for an hour on sunday but then never thinks of Him during the rest the week.
Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, and the Lord, I AM, or "He Who Is" are meant to represent to us, that which is eternal. Thats why the Bible describes Jesus as being the firstborn, before all creation and God as having no beginning and no end. This is what you want to be worshiping, so why would you want to replace the eternal with something transient like psychedelics? We are supposed to go from psychedelics to God, not from God to psychedelics.
I don't worship psychedelics, and in fact to keep a healthy mindset I don't worship anything. If anything I celebrate.
The psychedelics, just like the ceremony, church, robes and people, like the whole wide blue planet in fact, are just tools that allow us to feel a certain kind of inner experience. They are a door to walk through and explore beyond, and a very effective, quality door at that.
Jesus? 
The whole point of taking shrooms, going to any kind of ceremony or group event, is IMO to feel that ineffable something, that you can't "get" from a text, because it's a non-text, non-word experience. It's a meat and emotions and molecules thing, like an orgasm. Immediate.
The combination of music and proper molecules will help reset the system (body and mind) back to natural rhythms, firing in harmony on all cylinders. The experience comes with music and molecules to tune how we work, in real life, day to day.
What you call Jesus on the other hand, seems to me those are words. Abstractions, and not immediately felt at all. I do support the replacing of theoretical abstractions, with real genuine actions, experiences, molecules, rituals like spending a few hours soaking up the music, becoming one with the group and indeed the universe.
IMO psychedelics are like making love to an actual woman, whereas the texts, the Bible, Qur'an and other similar texts are more like a printed copy of Hustler. Same topic, VERY different experience. One is immediate and needs little explanations, the other is quite removed, and not at all interactive.
I have a rather poor opinion of the Bible, and the Qur'an and Torah for that matter, because their idea of a good time seems to be quite retarded. Instead of take 5 grams and sing with your fellow humans feeling the awesome in yourself and in them, it's show up sit your ass down and listen to some dude mumble from this book. Or show up at Mecca, spin around a rock. 
From my perspective, your thoughts come across as quite muddled. You say that psychedelics are like making love whereas the Bible is like hustler, I get your point but why restrict yourself to such a narrow viewpoint? In my view, psychedelics are like a great voyage and sacred texts are like maps that help you navigate. Without consulting maps and records of the experiences of others, it is easy to get lost in some neither region or some place that may be quite beautiful but is still quite far from the ultimate experience.
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What you call Jesus on the other hand, seems to me those are words. Abstractions, and not immediately felt at all. I do support the replacing of theoretical abstractions, with real genuine actions, experiences, molecules, rituals like spending a few hours soaking up the music, becoming one with the group and indeed the universe.
Neither do I, that is why I recommend those with an interest in Christianty, to actually attend church every Sunday, or if you like Buddhism, go to a Buddhist temple. I think it is very important to experience religion as it has been historically practiced, rather than just reading about it and trying to be spiritual on your own. What I was responding to was your very specific statement to replace the word "Jesus" (which is a divine name) with psychedelics. Now how is that not a theoretical abstraction? If you are having a real experience, you do not need to go editing that experiences, by mentally removing aspects of it and replacing them with words of your own liking. That is ridiculous.
Btw, the divine name of Jesus, though an abstraction is as I explained, merely a reminder intended to direct us to the absolute, the ultimate. Otherwise it is very easy to get caught in some spiritual hedonism or good vibes. There's nothing wrong with grooving along to some good vibes with psychedelics in a group of people and if that's your cup of tea, knock yourself out. But you must understand there are some people who hunger for more than that. They desire a lasting spiritual transofmration, not a temporary high. In order for true awkaening to occur, one must seek the absolute and giving the absolute a name (like God or Jesus) is quite logical because it serves as a reminder to seek it. Replacing this name with anything that is transitory, like psychedelics, totally defeats the purpose of naming the absolute. The word "psychedelic" is just as much of an abstraction as "Jesus". The difference is that the abstraction Jesus represents the eternal whereas the abstraction psychedelic represents a chemical that can produce a gimplse of the eternal.
Edited by Deviate (11/30/13 09:20 AM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Deviate] 2
#19207966 - 11/30/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Deviate said: The difference is that the abstraction Jesus represents the eternal whereas the abstraction psychedelic represents a chemical that can produce a gimplse of the eternal.
A few muttered syllables and a brain fart...neither seem to represent the eternal very well. As if any of us could comprehend such a thing. Choose your own map, choose your own adventure. We're all going to the same place in the end.
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Sleepwalker]
#19366288 - 01/03/14 11:07 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Thought i may post a little update, as i feel i had a sort of revelation(way too strong a word) last night.
First things first let me tell you whats been going on in my life..ive even worsened my legal situation the past month since this thread was last posted in. Let me start by saying i am in no way a dealer. I have 2 friends that would come over every day or two to smoke and play some video games, staying for 4 to 5 hours..no in and out shit.
Any who someone must have turned on me, since i had 2 undercovers bust my fucking door down cause someone reported a gas leak in my place and that there was children there. There arent any kids in my entire building, and there sure wasnt any gas leak.
I managed to flush all my pills and smack (my dumb ass relapsed a couple months ago), but they got some bho oil and my mg scale, a couple spore syringes, and took me to jail for a night. When i got booked the officer at the jail showed me my charges. Possession of controlled substance and intent to manufacture and deliver, both felonies. I got released after about 12 hours.
Thing is i havent heard from the detectives or received a court date in the mail and its been 3.5 weeks. I fear they are testing the powder i stupidly forgot to wipe off my scale while i was flushing shit, and if they do im going down for fucking heroin charges. The only things listed that they took on the search warrant was the bho, scale, and my cans of butane. They didnt take any of the powdery bag corners or rolled dollar bills that they could have easily gotten residue from, they even picked up the dollar bills and put them back down..
So my legal troubles went from a 2 year old traffic warrant to now almost definite extended jail time... doubly so since i have 3 prior drug convictions, no job, and no money.
The stress of that, on top of trying to get off this fucking dope has led me down a path of sever depression and anxiety. Ive been trying my hardest to find some solace in meditating and spirituality, which was totally unsuccessful until just last night. As silly as it may sound i watched the life of pi, and it made me think. Hard.
I had a sudden rush of realization and understanding. What surrendering to god really means, and even a further understanding of what the term god means. I feel now how the idea of god is just love, and that we are all part of god just as it is a part of us. Like leaves are part of a tree and fingers are a part of a body, we are a part of god.
It was such a rush and good feeling that it made me burst into tears inexplicably as i was trying to say a simple prayer. I cried for a sec, felt really good, then slept for more than 4 hours for the first time since i was arrested.
I woke up with a new found understanding of and connection to god, and a sort of acceptance of my actions and imminent punishment, which has severely faded over the course of the day. I still feel like im in a better place with my faith, and that i have more strength to sober up, but the euphoria is all gone.
I am able to accept now the trials put before me, although they would be a ton easier if i could maintain such a connection with god that i get that overwhelming euphoria and peace again. What i would give to feel what i felt last night again, or to even be able to summon that feeling with a simple prayer or meditation.
Maybe one day in the distant future when my legal troubles are gone i will be able to achieve that intense feeling of love and acceptance again.
I now question if ill be able to maintain this connection whilst sober, as i plan to be 100% from now on, short of maybe a little pot once off the years of probo im about to get after my jail time. Maybe its just the drugs making me feel this? I sincerely hope not.
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Sammysong
Dreamer



Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 584
Loc: Idios kosmos
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19366651 - 01/04/14 01:56 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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The whole problem is that we think of ourselves as ourselves
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
#19367110 - 01/04/14 07:33 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Weed would always make me depressed/careless/anxious (social anxiety, never had that problem before starting smoking) I quit a while ago, dont miss it, I take a walk in nature instead
God is love to me too, everywhere I look
Mind and body feels best without adding anything, if you add anything it must be because you love adding it to your mind and body
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Chuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: lessismore]
#19367392 - 01/04/14 09:45 AM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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Lol believe me the hardest part about kicking this shit is how much you truly love it.
Even when i was sober for almost a year every morning avnd night doing a big line of some food and catching a good nod is the single thing i desire most, despite all the dope sick and legal implications. I fear for the rest of my life my end all be all will be a heavy nod, and if i even allow myself to see an opiate i would almost certainly relapse.
All this shit started back up because i had a week long headache and tooth ache, and nothing over the counter would work on it. I figured `shit im used to heroin,so a vicodin wont do anything, right?` Wrong.
I took a half of a 750, melted into my bed, laughed my ass off at a disney show, knocked out for like 6 hours, then woke up at like 4am and went and got a gram of food.
Shit is no joke even if you dont shoot it. Ive never stuck a needle in my arm, always just up my nose, and it still will have a hold on me my entire life. Never, ever, EVER, touch heroin. Even if you only take a ride on like 10 vico or something, once youre hooked on opiates youre hooked for good. Even if you do manage to force yourself to stop, a good nod will still be what you desire most.
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