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Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Deviate]
    #19205320 - 11/29/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
The longing for the super natural is anything but unhealthy, on the contrary if you direct it toward a search for enlightenment, it is the most healthy thing you can be feeling. You must long for enlightenment, or else you will never bother to dismantle all the programming and heal the trauma you have picked up throughout your life.



Hmm...

Highly questionable, in my humble opinion.

I know some very astute and very insightful Buddhists who will tell you that your "longings" are not what's gonna open the magic door for you.  As a matter of fact (or so some say), your "longing" for enlightenment is as much an attachment as, say, your "longing" for Doritos Corn Chips.

Whatever.

All of us are only guessing when it comes to this shit.


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OfflineMahananda


Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 117
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: all this beauty]
    #19205893 - 11/29/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

To put a somewhat finer point on this, Buddhism proscribes only unskillful desires, not all desires.  Generally, a desire for liberation (the desire that motivated Siddhartha Gautama) will be a skillful desire.  It could, of course, be taken to a morbid extreme that would remove it from the ambit of skillful desire / action, but the typical lay or monastic Buddhist would not, despite actively seeking liberation, fall into that category.

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
I think the whole telling me my thoughts thing is really just a romanticized idea in my head about the super natural, with the story that Ram Das told just having the biggest impact.
I've never experienced anything really spiritual or super natural, and I can admit my longing for such an occurrence is probably unhealthy and could lead me down any multitude of incorrect paths, as well as creating far fetched expectations of what the spiritual world can give me.





The earth beneath your feet, the heavens above, the possibility of love, all these things are, in the final analysis, miraculous, and they all surround you every day.  There was a movie from the early 80s called My Dinner With Andre, about, of all things, a conversation between old friends at a restaurant that had a line that stuck with me on this:

"Tell me, why do we require a trip to Mount Everest in order to be able to perceive one moment of reality? I mean... I mean, is Mount Everest more "real" than New York? I mean, isn't New York "real"? I mean, you see, I think if you could become fully aware of what existed in the cigar store next door to this restaurant, I think it would just blow your [mind]! I mean... I mean, isn't there just as much "reality" to be perceived in the cigar store as there is on Mount Everest?"

The point, I suppose, is not to miss what's right before you in a vain attempt to experience "rabbit from a hat" tricks, which, compared with the amazing experience of life, and especially the possibility of insight, are utterly trivial.


Edited by Mahananda (11/29/13 06:41 PM)


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OfflineSpacerific
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Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 4,923
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Mahananda]
    #19205992 - 11/29/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with the above, to a great extent.

The only note I'd like to make is that in normal human un-psychedelic form so to say, we may simply lack the organs to perceive what's in that cigar store, in the present moment. Anyone who's played with some acid or shrooms or aya, will know that one has never quite opened their eyes to see, their nostrils to smell, tongue to taste or receptors to touch, quite like in those moments. Nor have they sent the impressions from the senses, so deep in a fully activated brain / heart, to actually "get" it.

True one can't trip all their life, but it is IMO important to trip at least once, or even better regularly, to train that muscle, of feeling, sensing the deeper layers of reality. To see what's possible, and have a framework for comparison.

Then as Alan Watts says, once one got the message, put down the phone.

I'm sure long long decades of meditation can deliver it all just as well as a few acid trips :lol:


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19206760 - 11/29/13 10:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
I may edit/change/add things to this post later if something comes to mind or I find better words to describe.


First a little background..


I went to catholic schools my entire life. Always had a religion class about that school's specific belief set influence my overall gpa. Never felt any real connection to anything catholic. Felt like they always wanted you to feel guilty about something. Being born with sin always got to me too. I mean how can a new born have sinned? How is that just?

One time in middle school I decided to participate in a service, rather than just sitting there fulfilling the attendance requirement. Of course my reasons at the time were not spiritual, but was cause I had a crush on a girl that was religious.
  During the participation I did feel something, maybe "connected" in a way. My wiccan mother told me that I had simply tapped into the energy of everyone there, and that was what compelled people to participate in main stream religious activities.
  For a while I subscribed to her explanation. Once I heard from my 6 year old sister that my mother had convinced her that casting fireballs from your hands as if you were a witch on the "charmed" show was possible through wicca, I no longer could believe anything my mother told me on any sort of spiritual subject.

Fast forward to high school. Was disowned by my mother and living with my father's side of the family. They are all atheist. Atheist to the point where they feel they need to be dicks to anyone with any sort of belief. Handing out pamphlets about how people's religion was wrong and that they were dumb for believing, and then starting fights with anyone who got offended. :rolleyes: Because of this I was unable to pursue anything spiritual.



Now I am free to pursue any sort of spirituality that I want, and have been doing so off and on for the past 3 years. I got divorced from my wife of 4 years a little under a year ago. This has given me the freedom to really look into what path is right for me ever since she left. 


My problem is this.
  I feel as though there is something more to this existence. Something spiritual, something bigger than what we can perceive or understand. Something that connects the entire universe. Be it a god or gods, the cosmos itself, or any number of other "higher power" type ideas. 
  Everything I read or look into, however, always comes back to having to "submit" to this higher power. That this higher power requires us to submit to it and bend to its will. And if we don't follow the rules we will be sent to eternal torture, doomed to be reborn over and over, or some other sort of "punishment".


Personally I feel like if there is a higher power, that according to most religions loves us unconditionally, it wouldn't want us to feel inferior to it. I always get half way into reading up about a spiritual path that preaches god's love, or that we are all part of god, then goes onto saying that we need to submit to this god or gives a bunch of conditions.

If i were this higher power that loved every entity and wanted good for everything, I would want anyone to feel like they don't need to do anything for me to love you. Or give you conditions for my love or to enter into a desirable afterlife.


Is there any path out there that wont end up telling me I need to submit to god's will, or give me conditions to enter a heaven? I don't need the promise of heaven in order to do good or not be a dick. It would be really nice to find something to believe in where I wont feel like I need to make sure Im doing everything right.

I find some comfort in meditation. Maybe even half way subscribe to the whole kundalini evergy thing. I just hate everything always coming back to having to be submissive to this higher power.


Thoughts?




Sure, look within. Begin with meditation and see where that takes you, imo, you will inevitably arrive at an obstacle that is confusing and you will come back here and post about it and that will tell people where/what you should go/do next.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Spacerific]
    #19207861 - 11/30/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

. Show up to Baptist church, spend an hour there with everybody singing happily around you, then see how you feel. When they say jesus, lord and all that, just assume they talk about psychedelics. For best results, actually take a small dose of shrooms before going there :lol:




I'm all about going to church on shrooms but I must say, you do not want to be replacing Jesus with psychedelics. If you worship a plant or a chemical, you are committing what the Bible calls "idolatry" and you are putting yourself lower down than Biblical literalists. We must seek what is Eternal, not what is transitory. What is transitory will always pass away and thus is not worth seeking. Psychedelics and the experience they produce are transitory. That's not to say they aren't valuable, they can be extremely valuable in the sense that they point one in the direction of eternal things. But at some point one must begin seeking those eternal things rather than being satisfied with a temporary glimpse of them. Worshipping psychedelics is like someone who goes to church and worships God for an hour on sunday but then never thinks of Him during the rest the week.

Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, and the Lord, I AM, or "He Who Is" are meant to represent to us, that which is eternal. Thats why the Bible describes Jesus as being the firstborn, before all creation and God as having no beginning and no end. This is what you want to be worshiping, so why would you want to replace the eternal with something transient like psychedelics? We are supposed to go from psychedelics to God, not from God to psychedelics.



I don't worship psychedelics, and in fact to keep a healthy mindset I don't worship anything. If anything I celebrate.

The psychedelics, just like the ceremony, church, robes and people, like the whole wide blue planet in fact, are just tools that allow us to feel a certain kind of inner experience. They are a door to walk through and explore beyond, and a very effective, quality door at that.

Jesus? :rofl:

The whole point of taking shrooms, going to any kind of ceremony or group event, is IMO to feel that ineffable something, that you can't "get" from a text, because it's a non-text, non-word experience. It's a meat and emotions and molecules thing, like an orgasm. Immediate.

The combination of music and proper molecules will help reset the system (body and mind) back to natural rhythms, firing in harmony on all cylinders. The experience comes with music and molecules to tune how we work, in real life, day to day.

What you call Jesus on the other hand, seems to me those are words. Abstractions, and not immediately felt at all. I do support the replacing of theoretical abstractions, with real genuine actions, experiences, molecules, rituals like spending a few hours soaking up the music, becoming one with the group and indeed the universe.

IMO psychedelics are like making love to an actual woman, whereas the texts, the Bible, Qur'an and other similar texts are more like a printed copy of Hustler. Same topic, VERY different experience. One is immediate and needs little explanations, the other is quite removed, and not at all interactive.

I have a rather poor opinion of the Bible, and the Qur'an and Torah for that matter, because their idea of a good time seems to be quite retarded. Instead of take 5 grams and sing with your fellow humans feeling the awesome in yourself and in them, it's show up sit your ass down and listen to some dude mumble from this book. Or show up at Mecca, spin around a rock. :rolleyes:





From my perspective, your thoughts come across as quite muddled. You say that psychedelics are like making love whereas the Bible is like hustler, I get your point but why restrict yourself to such a narrow viewpoint? In my view, psychedelics are like a great voyage and sacred texts are like maps that help you navigate. Without consulting maps and records of the experiences of others, it is easy to get lost in some neither region or some place that may be quite beautiful but is still quite far from the ultimate experience.

Quote:


What you call Jesus on the other hand, seems to me those are words. Abstractions, and not immediately felt at all. I do support the replacing of theoretical abstractions, with real genuine actions, experiences, molecules, rituals like spending a few hours soaking up the music, becoming one with the group and indeed the universe.




Neither do I, that is why I recommend those with an interest in Christianty, to actually attend church every Sunday, or if you like Buddhism, go to a Buddhist temple. I think it is very important to experience religion as it has been historically practiced, rather than just reading about it and trying to be spiritual on your own. What I was responding to was your very specific statement to replace the word "Jesus" (which is a divine name) with psychedelics. Now how is that not a theoretical abstraction? If you are having a real experience, you do not need to go editing that experiences, by mentally removing aspects of it and replacing them with words of your own liking. That is ridiculous.

Btw, the divine name of Jesus, though an abstraction is  as I explained, merely a reminder intended to direct us to the absolute, the ultimate. Otherwise it is very easy to get caught in some spiritual hedonism or good vibes. There's nothing wrong with grooving along to some good vibes with psychedelics in a group of people and if that's your cup of tea, knock yourself out. But you must understand there are some people who hunger for more than that. They desire a lasting spiritual transofmration, not a temporary high. In order for true awkaening to occur, one must seek the absolute and giving the absolute a name (like God or Jesus) is quite logical because it serves as a reminder to seek it. Replacing this name with anything that is transitory, like psychedelics, totally defeats the purpose of naming the absolute. The word "psychedelic" is just as much of an abstraction as "Jesus". The difference is that the abstraction Jesus represents the eternal whereas the abstraction psychedelic represents a chemical that can produce a gimplse of the eternal.


Edited by Deviate (11/30/13 09:20 AM)


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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Deviate] * 2
    #19207966 - 11/30/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
The difference is that the abstraction Jesus represents the eternal whereas the abstraction psychedelic represents a chemical that can produce a gimplse of the eternal.




A few muttered syllables and a brain fart...neither seem to represent the eternal very well.  As if any of us could comprehend such a thing. 
Choose your own map, choose your own adventure.  We're all going to the same place in the end.


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OfflineChuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #19366288 - 01/03/14 11:07 PM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Thought i may post a little update, as i feel i had a sort of revelation(way too strong a word) last night.

First things first let me tell you whats been going on in my life..ive even worsened my legal situation the past month since this thread was last posted in. Let me start by saying i am in no way a dealer. I have 2 friends that would come over every day or two to smoke and play some video games, staying for 4 to 5 hours..no in and out shit.

Any who someone must have turned on me, since i had 2 undercovers bust my fucking door down cause someone reported a gas leak in my place and that there was children there. There arent any kids in my entire building, and there sure wasnt any gas leak.

I managed to flush all my pills and smack (my dumb ass relapsed a couple months ago), but they got some bho oil and my mg scale, a couple spore syringes, and took me to jail for a night. When i got booked the officer at the jail showed me my charges. Possession of controlled substance and intent to manufacture and deliver, both felonies. I got released after about 12 hours.

Thing is i havent heard from the detectives or received a court date in the mail and its been 3.5 weeks. I fear they are testing the powder i stupidly forgot to wipe off my scale while i was flushing shit, and if they do im going down for fucking heroin charges. The only things listed that they took on the search warrant was the bho, scale, and my cans of butane. They didnt take any of the powdery bag corners or rolled dollar bills that they could have easily gotten residue from, they even picked up the dollar bills and put them back down..

So my legal troubles went from a 2 year old traffic warrant to now almost definite extended jail time... doubly so since i have 3 prior drug convictions, no job, and no money.

The stress of that, on top of trying to get off this fucking dope has led me down a path of sever depression and anxiety.
Ive been trying my hardest to find some solace in meditating and spirituality, which was totally unsuccessful until just last night. As silly as it may sound i watched the life of pi, and it made me think. Hard.

I had a sudden rush of realization and understanding. What surrendering to god really means, and even a further understanding of what the term god means. I feel now how the idea of god is just love, and that we are all part of god just as it is a part of us. Like leaves are part of a tree and fingers are a part of a body, we are a part of god.

It was such a rush and good feeling that it made me burst into tears inexplicably as i was trying to say a simple prayer. I cried for a sec, felt really good, then slept for more than 4 hours for the first time since i was arrested.

I woke up with a new found understanding of and connection to god, and a sort of acceptance of my actions and imminent punishment, which has severely faded over the course of the day. I still feel like im in a better place with my faith, and that i have more strength to sober up, but the euphoria is all gone.

I am able to accept now the trials put before me, although they would be a ton easier if i could maintain such a connection with god that i get that overwhelming euphoria and peace again. What i would give to feel what i felt last night again, or to even be able to summon that feeling with a simple prayer or meditation.

Maybe one day in the distant future when my legal troubles are gone i will be able to achieve that intense feeling of love and acceptance again.

I now question if ill be able to maintain this connection whilst sober, as i plan to be 100% from now on, short of maybe a little pot once off the years of probo im about to get after my jail time. Maybe its just the drugs making me feel this? I sincerely hope not.


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OfflineSammysong
Dreamer
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Registered: 09/09/12
Posts: 584
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Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19366651 - 01/04/14 01:56 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

The whole problem is that we think of ourselves as ourselves


--------------------


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19367110 - 01/04/14 07:33 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Weed would always make me depressed/careless/anxious (social anxiety, never had that problem before starting smoking)
I quit a while ago, dont miss it, I take a walk in nature instead

God is love to me too, everywhere I look

Mind and body feels best without adding anything, if you add anything it must be because you love adding it to your mind and body


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OfflineChuckfinely
another round for me an my buddy

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 628
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: looking for my spiritual path [Re: lessismore]
    #19367392 - 01/04/14 09:45 AM (10 years, 27 days ago)

Lol believe me the hardest part about kicking this shit is how much you truly love it.

Even when i was sober for almost a year every morning avnd night doing a big line of some food and catching a good nod is the single thing i desire most, despite all the dope sick and legal implications. I fear for the rest of my life my end all be all will be a heavy nod, and if i even allow myself to see an opiate i would almost certainly relapse.

All this shit started back up because i had a week long headache and tooth ache, and nothing over the counter would work on it. I figured `shit im used to heroin,so a vicodin wont do anything, right?` Wrong.

I took a half of a 750, melted into my bed, laughed my ass off at a disney show, knocked out for like 6 hours, then woke up at like 4am and went and got a gram of food.



Shit is no joke even if you dont shoot it. Ive never stuck a needle in my arm, always just up my nose, and it still will have a hold on me my entire life. Never, ever, EVER, touch heroin. Even if you only take a ride on like 10 vico or something, once youre hooked on opiates youre hooked for good. Even if you do manage to force yourself to stop, a good nod will still be what you desire most.


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