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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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How autonomous are we?
    #19159357 - 11/19/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The older I get and the more I learn from watching myself and others, the more I doubt humans are as autonomous in the manners we lead ourselves to believe.

This is not to say that we are all just mindless drones, incapable of self-control or influencing ourselves and others, but that self-control and autonomy may not be necessarily related in the way we may think...

Most people when I ask them why they do the things they do can rationalize it but cannot tell me why it is they rationally choose to think and behave in those manners, what it is that is driving them to do that...

What are your thoughts on this? Can you provide an argument against or for autonomy? Do you know why you are driven to do every little thing you do and think the way you do?


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19159498 - 11/19/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I watch Jeopardy, and learn.  Alex Trebek is amazing.  Fucker knows all the answers, and in advance.  How is that?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19159573 - 11/19/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I am driven to understand my mental processes better because there is pain in not knowing.
I don't see that autonomy (free will?) plays that much of a role, but my habits are to keep on the sidelines - not wanting to be dragged into crap for other people's entertainment.

i.e. while not particularly autonomous, I do have my preferences, and I try to make arrangements for my preferences to take precedence in my life.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19159579 - 11/19/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Some seem much more capable of autonomous behavior than others.  But even those people are probably capable of being much more autonomous than they currently are.  Some like to believe they are free but have little awareness of how the past and their conditioning drives them.  Ultimately, I don't believe we can be completely free like that.  There's always gonna be the current of the past pushing us with some force along our ways, especially being brought up in this messy culture.  Though who am I to say what is possible.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19159592 - 11/19/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
The older I get and the more I learn from watching myself and others, the more I doubt humans are as autonomous in the manners we lead ourselves to believe.

This is not to say that we are all just mindless drones, incapable of self-control or influencing ourselves and others, but that self-control and autonomy may not be necessarily related in the way we may think...

Most people when I ask them why they do the things they do can rationalize it but cannot tell me why it is they rationally choose to think and behave in those manners, what it is that is driving them to do that...

What are your thoughts on this? Can you provide an argument against or for autonomy? Do you know why you are driven to do every little thing you do and think the way you do?




With a long life I've come to many of the same conclusions you have. 

I've  been studying myself and others for 60+ years now and I think I have a pretty good idea that we are pretty much programmed by our early life experience and genetics.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOpenQwerty
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19159663 - 11/19/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sometimes I ask myself the same question....Maybe,  the forces of the unconscious, our past, the destiny and so on ...lead us more than we belive. Personally, I feel myself too often β€œforced” (even by myself) to do things that I would not....And sometimes I cannot explain, even to myself, why I do this or that action ...But I find  a partial answer in  the writings of the italian  anarchist E.Malatesta who wrote : β€œit is better to be a slave who believes to be free, rather than a slave conscious of his condition and glad of it”...yeah, it's always better to belive to be the leaders of our lives, rather than believing to be at the mercy of things that we can not control...


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Hobozen]
    #19159689 - 11/19/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
Some seem much more capable of autonomous behavior than others.  But even those people are probably capable of being much more autonomous than they currently are.  Some like to believe they are free but have little awareness of how the past and their conditioning drives them.  Ultimately, I don't believe we can be completely free like that.  There's always gonna be the current of the past pushing us with some force along our ways, especially being brought up in this messy culture.  Though who am I to say what is possible.




Is it possible they give him the answers before the show? 

Are you even replying to me, or just kind of blowing me off?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: OpenQwerty]
    #19159728 - 11/19/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OpenQwerty said:
Sometimes I ask myself the same question....Maybe,  the forces of the unconscious, our past, the destiny and so on ...lead us more than we belive. Personally, I feel myself too often β€œforced” (even by myself) to do things that I would not....And sometimes I cannot explain, even to myself, why I do this or that action ...But I find  a partial answer in  the writings of the italian  anarchist E.Malatesta who wrote : β€œit is better to be a slave who believes to be free, rather than a slave conscious of his condition and glad of it”...yeah, it's always better to belive to be the leaders of our lives, rather than believing to be at the mercy of things that we can not control...



you can contrive to move where your preferences lead, including the cultivation of preferences you like most.

this  is the essentially the extent to which we are free.
it takes analysis and effort... much of what we are is just habit, and  we have to use the knowledge of that (habits) to go where we prefer to go with our life


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19159930 - 11/19/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Is it possible they give him the answers before the show? 

Are you even replying to me, or just kind of blowing me off?




Blowing you off, dont talk down on Trebek.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Hobozen]
    #19159966 - 11/19/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The real Tree-beck:



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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19160003 - 11/19/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:drooling:


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Hobozen]
    #19161110 - 11/19/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In general, socialization acts to limit our autonomy. This may be the most important aspect of socialization. But socialization acts in the other direction too. A parent or a teacher may socialize us to act as individuals; I think the Church is less likely to do this.
    It is probably necessary for us to be socialized into group thinkings, before we branch off into our own thoughts and behaviors. Otherwise we would be feral children growing into feral adults.
    Everybody knows a few people who were not sufficiently socialized in the prevailing norms, before they went off to do their own thing. These people are usually interesting, but also frequently a pain to deal with. They can not function in a formal organization, except in rare special situations, such as they founded the company, or they came up with a technological breakthrough.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Invisiblecez
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19163319 - 11/20/13 01:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In a documentary titled "kymatica," I believe some scientist (neuroscientist or neurologist or of the sorts) made a claim that 95% of what we do is subconscious behavior.

Our environment programs us whether we are conscious of it or not.

As much as I try to understand myself and realize my unhealthy cycles, I still have an incredibly hard time breaking away from them.

Also,I think we are creatures of habit.  We cling to what we know, even if its not good for us.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: cez]
    #19163404 - 11/20/13 02:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would say that 99% of what we do is habit and leave 'subconscious' entirely out of the discussion.

it takes a lot of effort to gain control of something that highly automated.

maybe "gaining control" is not even the right idea.

something more achievable would be "influencing".


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19163671 - 11/20/13 06:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Veritas called it having wiggle room.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19163680 - 11/20/13 06:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

cool thread.. you are a wise automaton rgv (& ice)..

imo autonomy is a social concept that applies to humans interpreting their own & each other's actions. it is necessary for our society to function and be governed and for us to function as individuals.. :shrug2:


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: quinn]
    #19163690 - 11/20/13 06:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

it's weird how trying to be in control can sometimes blind you to openings and vice versa (life is weird) hmm


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
    #19163697 - 11/20/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Veritas called it having wiggle room.



and as such "I am a worm"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: quinn] * 2
    #19163698 - 11/20/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If one steps back and looks from afar we might look much more like a hive animal than we would care to admit.  The tribes or countries being separate hives what would war over territory. The ideas of our individuality might be mostly illusion.

In watching ants on task you will occasionally see a few going off in the wrong direction somewhat confused or otherwise motivated.

On any weekday you will find the mass of humanity in cars or otherwise on the human highway all heading on task. I might however be found hiking with my dogs aimlessly through the beautiful and mostly empty (of humanity) woodland trails around my home


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/20/13 07:21 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How autonomous are we? [Re: Icelander]
    #19163703 - 11/20/13 06:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If one steps back and looks from afar we might look much more like a hive animal than we would care to admit.  The tribes or countries being separate hives what would war over territory. The ideas of our individuality might me mostly illusion.



oh there is plenty of difference one to another,
and plenty of need to be spared being dominated by another.
but the main thing about each individual among humanity, is how much of totality is encompassed within the individual, including social structures as well as internalizations of nature (beyond the confines of humanity)


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