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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager
#19159021 - 11/19/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I recently had some of my windows changed in my house. The company charged me 2300$
Out of this 2300, there a 750$ installation fee. The fee is calculated at 75$/hour. They sent 2 men so they charge me 150$ for 5 hours of work.
The thing is, it took them exactly 2 hours to install the windows. Therefore they charged me 150$ X 3 = 450$ more than it was supposed to be. I was kinda pissed.
I went to the store and talked to manager a manager who offered me a big wall of NO! when it came to reducing the bill. From there, most people would have raised their voice. I didn't, I offered all sort of arguments (I'm not gonna write them all though). I argued with him for 15 minutes and none of us yelled. I am surprised that I didn't even swear. Not a single fuck has been said.
The thing is, I still need more windows and they are the cheaper company around. So after the agreement (which I essentially lost) I put in my order and the manager offered me free installation (which would take them an hour).
TL;DR: If you argue with a cool head in life, you will get more than if you walk in and yell or if you do nothing at all.
I'm proud of myself.
That being said, when is the last time you flipped out at a manager?
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broken
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19159065 - 11/19/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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earlier this summer i yelled at a manger at the gas station close to my house. i was buy over $20 worth of energy drinks for my co-workers (they all tossed me cash to run to the store after my sift.) so i pull in a get gas, this bitch runs over and says she pre-paid for that pump...why she didn't park next to it before she pre-paid is beyond me...
so, now i need to pay cash for the gas...plus the drinks, i don't have enough cash, but i can't use my card cuz it was pre-paid by the stupid bitch, so i had to use the ATM and yelled at the manger a bit something like this: "i'm a good customer, here several times a day somedays, and now i have to pay an ATM fee cuz your FNG and this stupid lady? fuck that i want some of these drinks for free!"
he gave me cash out of the till for the ATM fee, and didn't ring in all my energy drinks, and i think the FNG got fired cuz i didn't see him again.
at to top it all off, the manger who i yelled at asked if i was looking for a PT job a couple weeks ago.
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Shroomslip
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal] 1
#19159079 - 11/19/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I never have flipped out on a manager, or employee for that matter. Just not that type of person.
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With my face against the floor I can’t see who knocked me out of the way. I don’t want to get back up but I have to so it might as well be today. Nothing appeals to me no one feels like me, I’m too busy being calm to disappear. I’m in no shape to be alone contrary to the shit that you might hear. You can't wake up, this is not a dream. You're part of a machine, you are not a human being With your face all made up, living on a screen. Low on self esteem, so you run on gasoline
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gzuf
٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶



Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 6,535
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal] 5
#19159108 - 11/19/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The thing is, I still need more windows and they are the cheaper company around. So after the agreement (which I essentially lost) I put in my order and the manager offered me free installation (which would take them an hour).
So am I getting this right they still overcharge you and still get your business minus a little dinky installation fee that gets no where near their original overcharge? Fuck that shit. I wouldn't get their buisness back even IF they are the cheaper company around, I mean they fuckin' overcharge you and then basically give you the finger when you called them out on it. I would go to a different company out of stubbornness and even pay more if needed because fuck that shady bullshit.
-------------------- +1 Post ٩(̾๏̮̮̃̾๏̃̾)۶
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Shroomslip]
#19159112 - 11/19/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomslip said: I never have flipped out on a manager, or employee for that matter. Just not that type of person. 
its really easy to get what you want though. without flipping out.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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broken
455 member(s)



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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: gzuf]
#19159117 - 11/19/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i would have told the guy to go fuck himself and refused to pay for phantom labor.
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: broken]
#19159121 - 11/19/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
broken said: i would have told the guy to go fuck himself and refused to pay for phantom labor.
depends what the contract says
and patlal said even with the labor it was cheaper than any other place he knows of.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Khii Khwaay
black tooth grin

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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19159153 - 11/19/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Did you get an estimate before you had them start the work?
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hidenseek1
Its got all the dinks.
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: k00laid] 2
#19159160 - 11/19/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the perfect formula for charging some one is
finishing a 5 hour job in 3 and charge for 4
what they did was finish a 5 hour job in 2 and charged for 5
-------------------- You can drink at 7 A.M., because the Beastie Boys fought for that right -------------------------------------------------------------------------- pons asinorum -------------------------------------------------------------------------- lsd and the vietnam war changed music forever
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: gzuf]
#19159199 - 11/19/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
gzuf said:
Quote:
The thing is, I still need more windows and they are the cheaper company around. So after the agreement (which I essentially lost) I put in my order and the manager offered me free installation (which would take them an hour).
So am I getting this right they still overcharge you and still get your business minus a little dinky installation fee that gets no where near their original overcharge? Fuck that shit. I wouldn't get their buisness back even IF they are the cheaper company around, I mean they fuckin' overcharge you and then basically give you the finger when you called them out on it. I would go to a different company out of stubbornness and even pay more if needed because fuck that shady bullshit.
Yes, I thought of that. I really wanted to go to their competitor, but I would have lost even more money because they are more expensive. In the end I decided to swallow my pride and cut my losses.
I totally understand what you said though and I am convinced many people would have done it.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: broken]
#19159209 - 11/19/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
broken said: i would have told the guy to go fuck himself and refused to pay for phantom labor.
Then comes the collection agency, the attempt to repossess their windows, small claims court, etc...
AKA: The idiot's way of doing business
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19159218 - 11/19/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I always think about it from my own perspective: If someone was yelling and screaming at me, I think I'd be much less likely to listen to them and give in to their demands. However, I'll hear you out if you give me a rational explanation for something.
I've worked with enough contractors now that I really try to prevent problems from happening in the first place. Typical problems are deadlines and being unhappy with the work, so I always ask ahead of time. "Whats the timeline for this, what happens if it gets off track, etc." I also try and tell the contractor my expectations before they start work.
Last summer I had a fence installed and I told the contractor that when he was done, I was going to shoot a laser level down the side of it to make sure it was perfectly straight. He very politely informed me that I was a moron to expect 300 ft. of fence to be that straight, but assured me it would be good. Fair enough, he convinced me.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Khii Khwaay]
#19159226 - 11/19/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Khii Khwaay said: Did you get an estimate before you had them start the work?
Yes and I fucking signed off on it which is why all my arguments were useless. I tried to pull out the "abuse of trust" argument claiming that they took advantage of the fact I didn't know how long it would take and decided to overcharge me because they saw the opportunity. I opted not too, because I don't have sufficient knowledge of the law to make a sound argument... Yet another example of how ignorance will cost you a fortune in life.
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badchad
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19159238 - 11/19/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Would you have still gone with the same contractor if they gave you a "lump sum" estimate instead of breaking out the wages? I mean, had they known you would complain I'm sure they would have slowed down to make you happy.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: badchad]
#19159281 - 11/19/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: Would you have still gone with the same contractor if they gave you a "lump sum" estimate instead of breaking out the wages? I mean, had they known you would complain I'm sure they would have slowed down to make you happy.
If they hadn't told me that they charged by the hour, I would not have complained.
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: hidenseek1]
#19159421 - 11/19/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
hidenseek1 said: the perfect formula for charging some one is
finishing a 5 hour job in 3 and charge for 4
what they did was finish a 5 hour job in 2 and charged for 5
we dont live in a perfect world
but if youre that kind of window installer, there is a market up in canada that's all yours right now.
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19159564 - 11/19/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Patlal said: TL;DR: If you argue with a cool head in life, you will get more than if you walk in and yell or if you do nothing at all.
This is mostly true. However, backing down when you're clearly in the right is usually not the best course of action.
And yes, it is true that if you freak out, swear, cause a scene, and generally act like a roid-raging ass, then yeah... it usually will do more harm than good. Especially at smaller places, or if you're dealing with the top of the management chain, etc.
However, I've seen people get free stuff (after receiving bad or wrong service) after flipping out.
IMO you have to walk a fine line, in most of these situations. You need to express your displeasure, and make it very clear that you will not stand for that kind of thing (whatever that may be) while still trying to act mostly civil.
Heavily padding a bill for labor, when that labor is already at an insane rate ($75/hr) is completely unethical. If I worked for a company as a minimum wage employee (and we are talking around $8/hr) and you "pad" your shifts every single day... come in early 20 minutes, leave 30 minutes late, and so on.... some places will fire you for that, if it's not pre-approved overtime. No joke. For a silly eight fucking dollars an hour.
So IMO to charge even one or two extra hours, let alone 5-6 or more, at $75/hr is fucking robbery.
And not only would I probably never give a company like that my business again, I would absolutely blast their name every chance I got. Friends, acquaintances, online review sites, and on and on until plenty of people knew just how they operate. Fuck that noise. You think your work is worth $75/hr? Fine, if people are willing to pay it. But over-charging at that rate? Fuck you, pal.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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Khii Khwaay
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19159603 - 11/19/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
Khii Khwaay said: Did you get an estimate before you had them start the work?
Yes and I fucking signed off on it
Yep, you're S.O.L. AFAIK, if you've signed off on an estimate, the contractor can only go 10% over the written estimate before they have to check if it's ok with the customer.
When I did contracting work at people's houses, sometimes I would charge some of the parts as labour on the bill to save the customer a bit of taxes, as there was no GST collected on labour at the time.**This was a few years ago, though, and I don't really know how it works with the HST now. Are you sure he wasn't trying to save you some money by charging the way he did?
IMO, it's always best to ask if there's a cash price for the job before you have them start. No reciept, but no taxes, either.**
**dear CRA, if you're reading this, when I say "I" or "me", I really mean SWIM
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Khii Khwaay
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: CidneyIndole]
#19159612 - 11/19/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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75$ an hour is hardly an exorbitant rate. This is Canada we're talking about.
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hidenseek1
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Khii Khwaay] 1
#19159668 - 11/19/13 01:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i think its about 20$ higher then it should be, but maybe not if that was the cheapest place
-------------------- You can drink at 7 A.M., because the Beastie Boys fought for that right -------------------------------------------------------------------------- pons asinorum -------------------------------------------------------------------------- lsd and the vietnam war changed music forever
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Khii Khwaay]
#19160576 - 11/19/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Khii Khwaay said: 75$ an hour is hardly an exorbitant rate. This is Canada we're talking about.
I have to disagree.
And please don't misunderstand me. Not sure about construction / contractors (as I've never had to use them), but I assume they would charge around the same for labor in the US. That's around what mechanics tend to charge, for labor. So I assume it would be in that neighborhood.
I'm not saying the rate is outrageous for that field, but that there are not a whole lot of jobs without an advanced degree (doctor, lawyer, etc) that pay that much per hour. Most of them are in the area of skilled labor. Locksmiths. Electricians. Mechanics. Etc.
Contrast that with minimum wage. Federally it's something like $7.25 an hour. Only a few states have a higher minimum... and then it's only slightly higher, compared to the cost of living in those states, which tends to be much higher. Anyway, my point is, that $75/hr is about ten times what a low-wage employee makes. So if I work at wal mart (which I don't, thank god, but I know some who do) you have to work for TEN FUCKING HOURS (or more than one full work day) just to pay for some guy to perform ONE HOUR worth of work for you.
So if these people are taking their already high rate of pay, and padding that, by adding charges for labor they did not actually perform, that makes them serious, serious assholes. They may not think much of it. "Oh, it's just a couple extra hours added on." But that could be two whole goddamned days at work, for their customer.
And like I said: your typical wal mart employee, for example, would get fired for even padding their schedule a little bit. And in that case, we are talking about hours they're actually clocked in and working. Like I said-- I'm not sure about how common that is with this kind of thing, as I've never had to use such services, but mechanics are notorious for it. An honest mechanic is just about worth his weight in gold, around here.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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pwnasaurus
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19160820 - 11/19/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
badchad said: Would you have still gone with the same contractor if they gave you a "lump sum" estimate instead of breaking out the wages? I mean, had they known you would complain I'm sure they would have slowed down to make you happy.
If they hadn't told me that they charged by the hour, I would not have complained.
That was a bad move by them. Typically a contractor will do his estimates for "man hours" at which he estimates the average worker will take to complete the work then give you the price by multiplying by the hourly wage, but will not give you an actual time, just a cost. A good worker should be able to do well over a "man hour" of work in an hour.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19160849 - 11/19/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: I recently had some of my windows changed in my house. The company charged me 2300$
Out of this 2300, there a 750$ installation fee. The fee is calculated at 75$/hour. They sent 2 men so they charge me 150$ for 5 hours of work.
The thing is, it took them exactly 2 hours to install the windows. Therefore they charged me 150$ X 3 = 450$ more than it was supposed to be. I was kinda pissed.
I went to the store and talked to manager a manager who offered me a big wall of NO! when it came to reducing the bill. From there, most people would have raised their voice. I didn't, I offered all sort of arguments (I'm not gonna write them all though). I argued with him for 15 minutes and none of us yelled. I am surprised that I didn't even swear. Not a single fuck has been said.
The thing is, I still need more windows and they are the cheaper company around. So after the agreement (which I essentially lost) I put in my order and the manager offered me free installation (which would take them an hour).
TL;DR: If you argue with a cool head in life, you will get more than if you walk in and yell or if you do nothing at all.
I'm proud of myself.
That being said, when is the last time you flipped out at a manager?
Does the contract specify the labor charge is an hourly one or does it merely state "labor"?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19160860 - 11/19/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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labor...
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Lynnch
Strangerer



Registered: 04/29/09
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19161005 - 11/19/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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If I was that manager I would've told you to go fuck yourself (In nicer words) too. They were nice and gave you a price breakdown so you understood what you were paying for, and you went and nickle an dimed em. The labor fee you're paying isn't just for the work done, its to book them for that time including any potential overage time. Construction isn't exact, you have to allow flexibility. But because it isn't exact, they can't book other jobs any time near yours. So by charging you a flat rate, they're guaranteeing what they take home. The way to look at it is that they busted their asses and did a 5 hour job in 2. And paying that way is for your benefit too ya know, it could have been a clusterfuck nightmare and gone 8 hours, and you'd be on the other side of the argument telling them that the contract said 5 hours so thats all you're paying.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: Patlal]
#19161030 - 11/19/13 06:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: labor...
Then what the installers did was proper and you should have paid the full amount.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemboomers
loner with a boner

Registered: 01/11/13
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: CidneyIndole]
#19161089 - 11/19/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
CidneyIndole said:
Quote:
Khii Khwaay said: 75$ an hour is hardly an exorbitant rate. This is Canada we're talking about.
I have to disagree.
And please don't misunderstand me. Not sure about construction / contractors (as I've never had to use them), but I assume they would charge around the same for labor in the US. That's around what mechanics tend to charge, for labor. So I assume it would be in that neighborhood.
I'm not saying the rate is outrageous for that field, but that there are not a whole lot of jobs without an advanced degree (doctor, lawyer, etc) that pay that much per hour. Most of them are in the area of skilled labor. Locksmiths. Electricians. Mechanics. Etc.
Contrast that with minimum wage. Federally it's something like $7.25 an hour. Only a few states have a higher minimum... and then it's only slightly higher, compared to the cost of living in those states, which tends to be much higher. Anyway, my point is, that $75/hr is about ten times what a low-wage employee makes. So if I work at wal mart (which I don't, thank god, but I know some who do) you have to work for TEN FUCKING HOURS (or more than one full work day) just to pay for some guy to perform ONE HOUR worth of work for you.
So if these people are taking their already high rate of pay, and padding that, by adding charges for labor they did not actually perform, that makes them serious, serious assholes. They may not think much of it. "Oh, it's just a couple extra hours added on." But that could be two whole goddamned days at work, for their customer.
And like I said: your typical wal mart employee, for example, would get fired for even padding their schedule a little bit. And in that case, we are talking about hours they're actually clocked in and working. Like I said-- I'm not sure about how common that is with this kind of thing, as I've never had to use such services, but mechanics are notorious for it. An honest mechanic is just about worth his weight in gold, around here.
I agree. Just an FYI most mechanics do get paid flat rate. Doesn't matter if it takes 2 hours or 8 hours to do a 5 hour job, you're paying for 5 hours and he's getting paid for 5.
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Khii Khwaay
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Re: I have just had a heated, yet polite, conversation with a manager [Re: luvdemboomers]
#19161397 - 11/19/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yep, and a good mechanic will almost always get the job done in less time than the book rate (at least that's the way it usually happens in my shop).
Skilled labourers are much harder to come across than those that are only able to find work at Wally world, and I am willing to bet that each one of those guys was getting at least $15 an hour, maybe up to $20. Minimum wage in Ontario is north of $10 per hour.
Don't forget that the labour rate doesn't just pay the employee, but it also puts fuel in the truck, pays the taxes and insurance, the rent on the barn, tool replacement, etc.
This is Canada, where the guys that wear Carhartt and know how to hustle make six figures.
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