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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19173691 - 11/22/13 05:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

When the behavior of a headless nematode proves that consciousness is The key to evolution, I think we have entered a very dark age.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19173753 - 11/22/13 06:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Beyond physical evolutionary evidence which supports my theory, look at the complexity of consciousness say 150,000 years ago and look at it now. Huge, huge difference, and one that also proves the acceleration factor I mention.





There has been many parallel evolutionary branches that have been evolving right along with humans, but they're complexity of consciousness has not increased. Take the common cold for instance. It keeps mutating to counter our immunity to it, and that's the only trait it needs to survive and pass on it's genetic code. It doesn't need any increase in complexity of consciousness, yet it's still evolving.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19173754 - 11/22/13 06:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But the Universe does evolve. Earth and the biology within it is part of the Universe... Assuming the Big Bang theory is accurate, the matter/energy and forces which comprise Earth's entire history of evolution were sourced from that Big Bang - i.e. the birth of the Universe and everything within it. No...? It's all part of the same continuum. I don't see that as being any stretch at all. From this, it would surprise me if what we've got going on here was an isolated event with no relevance to the greater system of which we're a part.

A stretch might be the idea that the Universe trialed different configurations of energy when forming the (fundamental?) building blocks of today's evolution (i.e. alternative sub-atomic particles and atoms etc.). Perhaps this is what you were referring to... Prior to now, I'd assumed the formation of the sub-atomic particles as pretty much 'automatic' - but that's a pretty baseless assumption now that I think about it. It seems the Universe continually tends toward increasing complexity and interconnectedness and settles with some sort of stability in order to build, and there's evidence of sub-atomic variation so I don't see why this couldn't be applied to all elements (parts) of the Universe - can't see how it'd be tested though. I think a proper theory for evolution should extend beyond Earth's biology but I suppose we don't really know of any other complex systems of life in order to test or base such a theory upon.



Aye, I never said the universe didn't evolve, just that I hadn't gotten that far yet.  :grin:

In fact,  one of my very first threads ever was my On Novelty thread, in which I very simply describe evolution as custom (established building blocks in the universe, the past) + novelty (the 'new' factor, the something which happened to nothing, which allowed for the big bang to occur and everything after it, the establisher of customs, the present moment) = evolution (growth, change, greater complexity, future)
..funny that you mention the idea "that the Universe trialed different configurations" before forming fundamental building blocks as this statement aligns with the idea that custom+novelty=evolution. In fact your entire paragraph fits the whole novelty idea quite well. :thumbup:

Quote:

Mmm, I'm not too keen on that 'something from nothing' idea. Doesn't make any sense to me, and seems a wild assumption. I don't see much evidence of 'something from nothing' around me.




Does it make more sense if I were to say that absolute nothingness isn't observable in the known universe, which means it must have existed prior to the universes creation? (kind of like well duh). even grammaticaly speaking, the word "nothing" must refer to something. Since nothing cannot be, something (the original novelty) must happen to it, and thus, the universe was created from nothing. 

Quote:

Makes sense to me. DNA is pretty much evidence of this, isn't it? I think the evolution of human culture and also digital systems indicates this too.




Makes sense to me as well :thumbup:

Quote:

Yes, I’d agree on the purpose of life being a means for the Universe to increase its complexity and interconnectedness. I think the same can be said of technology, however technology is really quite a gamble and we’re yet to see whether it destroys us and all of the ‘progress’ on Earth, or if it spawns a new stable species or form of life with phenomenal creative power and absolute interconnectivity.

I’m hopeful…

(Note: The assumption that the overarching trend of evolution is toward complexity and interconnectedness is a bold one, given how little we know, but I think it's a lot better than the 'survival or the fittest'/competition model spawned from Darwin's theory which seems commonly accepted.)




The moment a species becomes stable, which earlier I defined as being a characteristic of a custom (since custom represents stable things for which novelty can happen too allowing for evolution.), is the moment that species behaves more like a custom, meaning a building block for the furthered evolution of consciousness, and stops evolving at a rapid rate...

This is the reason for the diverse range of life on earth, especially in regards towards stable species of animals such as insects which haven't evolved much in millions of years due to the very stability we speak of, but are still useful for furthering the evolution of consciousness.

Humans, are the most unstable of all species because we are at the forefront of consciousness evolution, which is proven by the fact that we as a species exhibit much more novel behavior than any other animal, which is why we have experienced so much change and why this change is accelerating..which in turn allows for more novelty..

the greater the novelty, the greater the complexity, and the greater the complexity the greater the novelty (explains the accelerating factor of consciousness evolution).

Consciousness seeks novelty, but still must establish customs (stability) to increase its overall complexity (evolution).


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: White Beard]
    #19173831 - 11/22/13 06:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

hTx said:
Beyond physical evolutionary evidence which supports my theory, look at the complexity of consciousness say 150,000 years ago and look at it now. Huge, huge difference, and one that also proves the acceleration factor I mention.





There has been many parallel evolutionary branches that have been evolving right along with humans, but they're complexity of consciousness has not increased. Take the common cold for instance. It keeps mutating to counter our immunity to it, and that's the only trait it needs to survive and pass on it's genetic code. It doesn't need any increase in complexity of consciousness, yet it's still evolving.



The common cold happens due to a virus, which is a highly stable life form, and one that doesn't need to mutate to counter our immunity to it because of the fact that viruses are so small in size, much smaller than cells viruses work by attaching to cells and injecting RNA into them, making the cell produce more of said virus until the cell explodes and the process repeats until the organism the virus has infected evolves a better immunity.

Unlike bacteria, which is a little bit more complex and shows physical evolution in regards towards the antibiotics we prescribe to kill them off.

What you fail to see is that by introducing antibiotics into bacterias environment, we have created novelty in an otherwise stable species environment, which produces an unstable environment and an unstable species which due to the novelty presented, evolves at a more rapid rate until the point of stability is found again...

since consciousness long ago established bacteria as a customary building block of consciousness, the consciousness of bacteria isn't very complex and will consistently return towards stability.. but is still able to react too danger and novelty and evolve to remain in stability.

Consciousness has humanity centered more in the 'novel' phase, where we consistently return towards a state of greater instability brought on by novelty for the purposes of rapid evolution of consciousness. The entirety of life is involved in this process, its all interconnected. For example, A bacteria which is able to return to stability will increase the instability of humanity, driving us to learn and become more aware of medicine (increasing overall complexity of consciousness) so that we may fight off infections.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19173898 - 11/22/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It may be that our apprehension of the future, or of death, which causes an unconscious anxiety that many here love to talk about on the daily, (death anxiety) is perhaps the sole reason for such instability and novelty present in human behavior.

I say this because the introduction of antibiotics to bacteria may also introduce a sort of death anxiety into the population, causing further instability, which increases its rate of change and adaption resulting in a physical mutation to remove the anxiety and restore stability.

This anxiety introduced from the threat of death increases instability and induces novelty, increasing the rate of evolution. Its likely that since the awareness of what is 'safe' and what is 'unsafe' was probably one of the first instances of consciousness in living things, it learned what happens when the threat of death is present and it evolved the human to come to know the threat of death being present always, resulting in complex death anxiety to induce a greater state of instability and therefore novelty in the species which allows for much faster evolutionary processes to occur within us. 

The above is also an example of not only the evolution of consciousness producing physical mutations which allowed for greater complexity, but how consciousness uses the collective consciousness of all living things to evolve itself into greater complexity.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19173930 - 11/22/13 07:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
When the behavior of a headless nematode proves that consciousness is The key to evolution, I think we have entered a very dark age.



Actually it grew its head back and exhibited a behaviour which should not have been possible if consciousness was a secondary effect of the brain. Or if consciousness is strictly in 'the brain', which is also an absurd claim because consciousness encompasses mind-body-environment, since it is aware of all of these.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19175336 - 11/22/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nematodes dont exhibit concious behaviors even with heads


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19175821 - 11/22/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

irrelevant argument since conscious behavior on even a humans level of consciousness is debatable. the fact is the worm possesses consciousness, which is the capacity for awareness all living things display to survive, interact with the environment and retain information.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19175969 - 11/22/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the definition of life, life
līf
noun
1.
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

This condition is the capacity for increasing awareness (consciousness).


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19175978 - 11/22/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The "experts" would never go against established. thoughts on the matter

Any "expert" who could go against established thinking and back it up with evidence instead of empty words would win the Nobel Prize for so deeply disrupting the whole of science (hint:this is a good thing) and at once creating an entire new branch of science.

This is what the likes of Maxwell and Schrodinger and Einstein did.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Diploid]
    #19176248 - 11/22/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah that is what I'm trying to do..but I don't see how the evidence I use to explain my reasoning isn't considered evidence?

Explain this to me pleaase because I'm genuinely curious and perhaps you could point me in the right direction, so far all evidence I see supporting darwins theory could also be considered evidence for my theory..and I also presented other evidence as well.

So far no one has showed any sufficient evidence against consciousness evolution by means of accelerating complexity, right?

while I have shown sufficient evidence against Darwins theory of evolution by means of natural selection (or atleast given an alternative point of view which shows the theory to be incomplete at best)

So help me out here diploid, I think its obvious that darwins theory of evolution cannot easily account for the complexity of consciousness manifested in human beings while mine can.


Darwins theory attempts to explain genetic diversity through means of random mutations filtered through non-random natural selection..I don't argue that as one piece of the puzzle but it ignores conscoiusness completely, doesnt account for how or why complex consciousness evolved and continues to do so, nor does the theory allow for consciousness to effect physical evolution whatsoever.

According to Darwins theory, consciousness has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Which is the most obvious flaw of the theory.


Its obvious to me that one should not ignore consciousness like this when explaining how and why life evolves, especially considering the evidence completely present that consciousness does indeed effect physical evolution..take genetic manipulation as one piece of obvious evidence. Or take this paper explaining how consciousness effects DNA http://barbiezabel.blogspot.ca/2006/11/science-says-dna-can-be-changed-with.html for another more obvious piece of evidence.



The theory that consciousness emerged as a property of the brain through means of natural selection is completely misleading and erroneous.

This is because consciousness has been present since before the development of a brain, and that physical evolution of the brain  increases the overall complexity of consciousness, meaning that the evolution of the brain simply allowed for a complex consciousness to bloom greater complexity.

its more likely that scientists who claim that consciousness emerged from physical mutation and not the other way around are arrogantly assuming that consciousness is a strictly human phenomena and also arrogantly assume that consciousness can only increase in complexity with a physical mutation.

Both assumptions are false as proven that consciousness increases in complexity always without physical mutation (memes and memelution for example), and that the very defining factor of all life is the consciousness factor.

This is also proof that so much science is based on materialistic philosophical thought which also ignores consciousness and because of this is prone to erroneous assumptions about observed phenomena.


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Edited by hTx (07/16/21 04:48 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19176433 - 11/22/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Nematodes dont exhibit concious behaviors even with heads




Much like certain members.

:yaysugar:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19176441 - 11/22/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know of one reputable scientist that believes that humans are the only life form possessing consciousness. :confused:  Where did you get this wild idea from?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Diploid]
    #19176464 - 11/22/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

hTx writes: "Explain this to me pleaase because I'm genuinely curious and perhaps you could point me in the right direction, so far all evidence I see supporting darwins theory could also be considered evidence for my theory..and I also presented other evidence as well."

Diploid, perhaps you could gather the evidence and write the article for him - and maybe even get partial credit for such.


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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19176519 - 11/22/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
but I don't see how the evidence I use to explain my reasoning isn't considered evidence?




Even if there was any evidence in your posts here, how would it be of any use or value when mixed in with such opinionated blabber that everyone interprets differently because of it's vagueness?

I don't believe you're trying to do what Einstein and those other great minds did.  You are trying to win a debate on an internet forum.  After all, you've "never lost a debate yet".



Edited by Hobozen (11/22/13 09:01 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Hobozen]
    #19176530 - 11/22/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah when he said that, the jig was up imo. :lol:

I certainly haven't seen all this winning.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Icelander]
    #19176532 - 11/22/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't know of one reputable scientist that believes that humans are the only life form possessing consciousness. :confused:  Where did you get this wild idea from?



Everyone here equating conscious behavior with consciousness. Was a sort of typo I suppose, your right most scientists would or rather should agree that consciousness by its very definition is a property of all life and this is what I've been trying to say the whole time, since consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself, and all living things possess some form of this awareness. 

That just because a living thing doesn't posses a brain, doesn't mean it cannot posses consciousness or even complex consciousness.

I was referring to the scientists which maintain that human consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

Which is a false assumption based on the theory of evolution by means of natural selection.

The evidence I have presented suggests that the brain is an emergent property of consciousness evolution.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19176569 - 11/22/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
hTx writes: "Explain this to me pleaase because I'm genuinely curious and perhaps you could point me in the right direction, so far all evidence I see supporting darwins theory could also be considered evidence for my theory..and I also presented other evidence as well."

Diploid, perhaps you could gather the evidence and write the article for him - and maybe even get partial credit for such.



I've already gathered the evidence, I want someone to explain how it isn't evidence and than I will admit that I am wrong.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19176570 - 11/22/13 09:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I was referring to the scientists which maintain that human consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

Thats something altogether different imo.  I think myself it's  totally possible that our consciousness is an emergent property of our brain/nervous system function.  However I'm not qualified to make any final determination on the subject.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Hobozen]
    #19176585 - 11/22/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
Quote:

hTx said:
but I don't see how the evidence I use to explain my reasoning isn't considered evidence?




Even if there was any evidence in your posts here, how would it be of any use or value when mixed in with such opinionated blabber that everyone interprets differently because of it's vagueness?

I don't believe you're trying to do what Einstein and those other great minds did.  You are trying to win a debate on an internet forum.  After all, you've "never lost a debate yet".




All evidence shows that I am right, and not one person has been able to show evidence that I am wrong.


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