Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >
InvisibleMr Person
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19163283 - 11/20/13 01:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

Evolution really only makes sense when discussing species as in genetics - in biology,  is not about mapping thoughts to the brain or to civilization - thoughts are not species, thoughts do not mate, and their viability is not measured by how successfully they fuck, how many eggs and idea has, or if an idea can beat another idea in a niche in order to fuck and lay eggs.

without the fuck it's not evolution, and if any ideas are put forth that don't have this element, you don't know fuck all about evolution




Thoughts are based in biology.  It's inconceivable that in shaping the physical structure of our brains, evolution has somehow not effected our thoughts as well.  Since the origin of language human thoughts have also evolved very much like biological species.  They compete, in a sense, for our limited attention and the fittest have survived by being compelling enough to pass to our descendants in the form of transmitted knowledge.

Think of all the systems of belief throughout history that have been stamped out by an idea called Christianity and then tell me that the viability of a thought is not measured by how successfully it can reproduce and invade other niches. Not all reproduction and evolution comes from fucking, as any amoeba or starfish could tell you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Mr Person]
    #19163389 - 11/20/13 02:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

thanks to books and now the interweb thoughts are very likely to live on after people who thought them have fucked off and died.

thoughts may collide and merge and transform in some process we have yet to comprehend.

maybe it will be called idealution or conceptology


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr Person
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #19163395 - 11/20/13 02:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's called memetics.  Named after the meme, which functions kind of like a gene in biological evolution as the simplest unit of change.  In this case it's a very basic idea.  Something as simple as a phrase, a symbol, or a concept.  And memes join together to form complexes which are like the multicellular organisms of biology.  Complexes join to form bodies of knowledge and systems of belief which then compete amongst each other like societies of organisms. The history of this evolution is visible in the history of cultures.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Mr Person]
    #19163405 - 11/20/13 02:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

true memetics and memolution


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
jpRe: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19163606 - 11/20/13 05:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

which would suggest what exactly?

does this show that consciousness could be not only evolving but also the focus of evolution? since this type of memetic evolution occurs in the moment, meaning all the time always, could this mean that the much slower physical adaption results as a safety sort so that successful memes have time to establish themselves as superior (beneficial) to the evolution of the species?


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
jpRe: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19163647 - 11/20/13 05:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it means that memes and memetics are not resolved like genes and genetics are;
they are merely hypothesized for the sake of argument and speculation,
and memolution is an extrapolation upon that unproven hypothesis, providing a rich domain for conversations like this one.

tarzan and the apes were equally capable of such a consideration, though their imagery would be of beasts, foliage and weather rather than mendels mathematics (heredity genetics and geological time frames).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19164410 - 11/20/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
bad example since the machine was made and programmed with conscious intent to react according to the parameters setup and made possible by consciousness. :smile:





The point I was trying to make was that just because something takes in input and gives back output, doesn't mean it's conscious and has a sense of self like me and you.

Quote:

hTx said:
also you described a non living thing which has nothing to do with an organisms awareness of its surroundings. without basic awareness of the reality which a living thing finds itself in that thing could not live because it would not have the capacity to react (evolve)  to conditions which would be detrimental towards its survival. without the basic awareness of survival (advance to safety retreat from unsafe) than survival would not be possible.




Plants don't seem to react when they are in danger. :shrug: Awareness is a trait that some organisms employ, and others do not. Plants main advantage over animals is that they can spread like weeds, and don't always have to be searching for nutrients. The trade off is that they just sit there in the face of danger. In fact some plants employ getting eaten to their advantage. Sure one plant will be destroyed, but the animal will have consumed seeds, or gotten burrs on it's fur, and then tracks these to new locations, causing way more plants to be born from the death of one.

Reacting to danger is not the same thing as evolution.


Edited by White Beard (11/20/13 10:52 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: White Beard]
    #19165665 - 11/20/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the tradeoff is that since plants are rooted and cannot flee from danger they have come up with other ways to ensure survival such as release pheromones which warn other plants of danger which the other plants may respond by producing some sort of natural pesticide. Darwin himself said that the meristem of plants behave in a similar way to the brain in lower animals, receiving sensory input and directing movement.

plants have memory and even transgenerational memory. They communicate. All of this and more suggests that plants exhibit atleast anoetic consciousness.

Every living thing must have atleast a basic level of consciousness to be able to receive sensory input and react to its environment, and since plants show they have memory they are using sensory input received through consciousness to evolve, as is every other living thing.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: White Beard]
    #19167901 - 11/20/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



Reacting to danger is not the same thing as evolution.




No but it is evidence of awareness/consciousness.

Also I just got reminded of some research which shows that just thinking about working out, will actually make you stronger. Further proof that evolution takes place within consciousness primarily and physical mutations follow.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19168007 - 11/20/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Seems hTx got bitch-slapped in his thread about quantum physics and didn't learn a single thing.





which thread are you talking about, i've never lost a debate, especially about quantum physics. Whoever was talking about quantum physics with me clearly had no clue what he was talking about but you were of course biased to take his side because you always take the side of any argument against me, no matter if I am right or not.

typically with very little input about the subjects at hand such as bringing up some quantum physics thread I apparently got bitch slapped in a totally different and unrelated thread, using fallacies, grasping at straws such as constantly appealing to yourself as authority ("i have a degree so i'm right bler bler blerrg") 

:braindamage:

it seems you are like getting paid to push an agenda or something.

:paranoid:


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Mr Person]
    #19168019 - 11/20/13 11:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

Evolution really only makes sense when discussing species as in genetics - in biology,  is not about mapping thoughts to the brain or to civilization - thoughts are not species, thoughts do not mate, and their viability is not measured by how successfully they fuck, how many eggs and idea has, or if an idea can beat another idea in a niche in order to fuck and lay eggs.

without the fuck it's not evolution, and if any ideas are put forth that don't have this element, you don't know fuck all about evolution




Thoughts are based in biology.  It's inconceivable that in shaping the physical structure of our brains, evolution has somehow not effected our thoughts as well.  .




Is it conceivable that our thoughts effect evolution?

I think its pretty damn obvious they do, and that without consciousness evolution wouldn't be possible.

I also feel like I've proved my points and logic successfully and beaten Whitebeard in this debate. wheres my nobel prize people?!


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19168066 - 11/20/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't take exception to you; I take exception to idiocy.

BTW it was Diploid who handed you your ass in the physics discussion. If you want a repeat I will put up $1,000 on a rematch with a degreed physicist as a judge.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19168069 - 11/20/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Is it conceivable that our thoughts effect evolution?





No.



TAKE A GODDAMNED, FUCKING COURSE!


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/20/13 11:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19168189 - 11/21/13 12:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Is it conceivable that our thoughts effect evolution?





No.



TAKE A GODDAMNED, FUCKING COURSE!



I am a bio major, i'm taking plenty and I know what I'm talking about.

How about you take a course on proper debate.

Your only argument so far has been appeals to authority, which is a fallacy, especially considering in OP i challenge that so called authority and back it up with logical evidence.

Evolution takes place and we observe it in action, but what you fail to see is that the theories surrounding the observation of evolution need to be challenged because they are wrong, as I have proved in this thread.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMr Person
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19168267 - 11/21/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:

Is it conceivable that our thoughts effect evolution?

I think its pretty damn obvious they do, and that without consciousness evolution wouldn't be possible.

I also feel like I've proved my points and logic successfully and beaten Whitebeard in this debate. wheres my nobel prize people?!




I guess I don't fully understand your point.  Sure sensory input does inform the individual decision making process that ultimately leads to evolution.  That much is obvious. 

It seems like you are going a step further though and saying that the content of an organism's thoughts determines the shape or path of it's evolution. It also sounds like you are saying that consciousness is some kind of quantifiable energy level or substance that determines how aware an organism is of it's environment. A little bit makes a plant capable of growing and changing with the light, while a lot makes a smart human being.

The problem with that is your definition of the word consciousness does not appear to be shared by the people you're arguing with, and unfortunately it's unprovable anyway (as are most definitions of consciousness). Smarter people than us have not been able to agree on  a definition in millennia of arguing over the subject. 

I think it's more likely that consciousness is just the end result of human brain function.  All we can say for sure is that humans seem to experience it. For the mental experience of plants and animals to be called consciousness I think it would have to be at least somewhat similar to what we experience.  Plants, microorganisms, and many animals just don't seem biologically capable of experiencing anything remotely similar to what humans experience, so I can't say that they are likely to be conscious.

I would refer to what redgreenvines said about the clash of understanding that occurs when people don't agree on the meanings of words.  He called out your use of "evolution", but I think it's "consciousness" that is causing the disconnect.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19168297 - 11/21/13 12:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the theories surrounding the observation of evolution need to be challenged because they are wrong, as I have proved in this thread.




A science major who doesn't even understand the concept of proof.

:hahthatsrich:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19168315 - 11/21/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

the theories surrounding the observation of evolution need to be challenged because they are wrong, as I have proved in this thread.




A science major who doesn't even understand the concept of proof.

:hahthatsrich:



thats hardly an argument, and you apparently have a BS and yet you don't even understand the concept of a scientific theory.

A theory is not proof.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19168338 - 11/21/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i've never lost a debate,

Then you are the first and only one here who hasn't. :bowdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKGB Is Go
Сталкер
Male


Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 322
Loc: VIC Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19168343 - 11/21/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm with you a little bit, hTx, but what about the fact (or idea) that the Universe has been evolving since the Big Bang, when consciousness as 'we' 'know' it today appears to have not existed.

Plasma -> Electrons -> Protons -> Atoms -> Molecules -> Planets/Stars etc. -> Cells/Organisms -> ... -> Humans

Simplified, and probably inaccurate, but this series is all part of the same string, isn't it? Evolution, as a gradual, yet apparently increasingly rapid, crystallisation of energy into forms of matter with ever-increasing complexity and interconnectedness (with human brains appearing the most advanced element in our neighourhood). While human consciousness (or, mind) seems very powerful in connecting things together and creating complex systems, which are now guiding evolution to some extent, it still appears to me a by-product of the (evolution of the) physical system which is exists in.

But as humans become increasingly trans-human and merge with computers and digital systems - augmenting our bodies, re-writing genetic code, developing AI,  creating cyborgs, playing around with virtual realities, and generally getting really creative on a large scale - plus the fact that it's information which our brains (and computers) process in order to act and create, it seems to me that the basis or 'medium' of evolution is better described as information, above anything else we can perceive.

I'm deviating from the purely biological view of evolution, as others have mentioned, but I think that's too narrow when looking at this matter.


--------------------
"The guy went axe-happy on a trout farm, he killed 60 fish."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Mr Person]
    #19168401 - 11/21/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mr Person said:
Quote:

hTx said:

Is it conceivable that our thoughts effect evolution?

I think its pretty damn obvious they do, and that without consciousness evolution wouldn't be possible.

I also feel like I've proved my points and logic successfully and beaten Whitebeard in this debate. wheres my nobel prize people?!




I guess I don't fully understand your point.  Sure sensory input does inform the individual decision making process that ultimately leads to evolution.  That much is obvious. 

It seems like you are going a step further though and saying that the content of an organism's thoughts determines the shape or path of it's evolution. It also sounds like you are saying that consciousness is some kind of quantifiable energy level or substance that determines how aware an organism is of it's environment. A little bit makes a plant capable of growing and changing with the light, while a lot makes a smart human being.

The problem with that is your definition of the word consciousness does not appear to be shared by the people you're arguing with, and unfortunately it's unprovable anyway (as are most definitions of consciousness). Smarter people than us have not been able to agree on  a definition in millennia of arguing over the subject. 

I think it's more likely that consciousness is just the end result of human brain function.  All we can say for sure is that humans seem to experience it. For the mental experience of plants and animals to be called consciousness I think it would have to be at least somewhat similar to what we experience.  Plants, microorganisms, and many animals just don't seem biologically capable of experiencing anything remotely similar to what humans experience, so I can't say that they are likely to be conscious.

I would refer to what redgreenvines said about the clash of understanding that occurs when people don't agree on the meanings of words.  He called out your use of "evolution", but I think it's "consciousness" that is causing the disconnect.



Well just to clear things up, I am using "consciousness" in reference towards any living things ability to interact, manipulate, and understand its environment, any living things awareness of the universe, no matter how basic...

I know a lot of people hear the word consciousness and think that only humans exhibit consciousness, which I dont see as true, because any living thing must have some sort of consciousness to be considered alive with the above definition. We just have developed a more evolved state of consciousness, through our ever-increasing understanding of our environment and awareness of the universe.

Does it make more sense this way?

Consciousness development being the purpose of the evolution of DNA, meaning DNA expressed as a human has developed the most advanced consciousness (that we know of lol) and are therefore at the forefront of evolution (on earth anyways)..which is why we are the dominant species of the planet...and are literally driven to increase our knowledge and awareness by DNA. 

On the scale of consciousness evolution, life pretty quickly evolved past simple interaction to manipulation and eventually to understanding.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next > | Last >

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* DNA - Further Proof against Evolution
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
rizingfire 7,883 85 12/13/09 11:25 AM
by EntheogenicPeace
* Evolution
( 1 2 3 4 all )
SkorpivoMusterion 8,956 61 12/08/03 03:34 PM
by Anonymous
* Why evolution isn't a scientific theory.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 )
Mr. Mushrooms 13,870 267 04/20/09 03:22 PM
by zouden
* change and the rapid evolution of humaninty...
( 1 2 3 all )
Smack31 5,724 57 09/25/02 04:27 PM
by shii-tan
* The History of Evolution
( 1 2 all )
rizingfire 4,461 26 12/19/09 09:30 PM
by Icelander
* evolution or creationism?
( 1 2 3 all )
top 5,371 54 11/17/05 09:19 PM
by Moonshoe
* is scientism a kind of dogma?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DividedQuantumM 3,874 103 02/05/14 06:32 PM
by lessismore
* Deconstructing evolution.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
daytripper23 4,508 75 01/13/10 04:22 PM
by andrewss

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
29,259 topic views. 3 members, 14 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 15 queries.