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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21174242 - 01/25/15 10:32 AM (9 years, 6 days ago)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150123102221.htm

""If this is right," says Smith, "you can look at the universe as a kind of 'complexity machine', which raises all sorts of questions about what this means in a broader sense. For example, does believing the universe is structured to produce complexity in general, and rational creatures in particular, constitute a religious belief? It need not imply that the universe was created by a God, but on the other hand, it does suggest that the kind of rationality we hold dear is not an accident.""

sounds like pretty much everything I've been saying in this thread for over a year now.

:smirk:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #21175192 - 01/25/15 02:54 PM (9 years, 5 days ago)

well if what you're saying turns out to be wrong you'll have been spreading that for over a year.:tongue:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Icelander]
    #21175773 - 01/25/15 05:34 PM (9 years, 5 days ago)

Truth!
I dont know. Not as dedicated to this whole project as I used to be..
Good ego boost however that this guy is coming to the same realization as I a year after I proposed the same idea.

He is getting all the credit now but I was first :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx] * 1
    #21178611 - 01/26/15 10:55 AM (9 years, 4 days ago)

:lol: That's all any of this shite is.  An ego boost for the insecure.  That's all of us btw.

This shroomery is not at the bottom of the rabbit hole unfortunately, it's just a filthy pit stop toilet on the way down.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #21183270 - 01/26/15 08:41 PM (9 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Most materialists maintain that evolution is a strictly physical phenomena, and that human consciousness emerged due to the physical evolution of the brain.

I think its much more accurate to say that consciousness is whats evolving, and that physical changes follow, not the other way around.

This happens at an ever accelerating pace.

Proprietors of evolution claiming that consciousness has little to do with it, or subscribe to the whole 'survival of the fittest' type of logic surrounding evolution either cannot see or refuse to see that consciousness has been the medium for which all living things interact with their environment, and that consciousness has evolved and is evolving always.


Neither. Consciousness and brain development both mirror the feedback dynamics off  Bolztmann entropy and Shannon entropy.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: morrowasted]
    #21494325 - 04/02/15 09:17 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

I said it when I first made this thread, that more evidence supporting OP would arrive, which is the reason I keep periodically bumping the thread.
Diploid thought this was a very foolish and defeating statement to make, however, time is proving my prediction correct.

DNA cannot explain all inherited traits. 
"We've shown without doubt that changes in the histone spools that make up chromosomes can be copied and passed through generations. Our finding settles the idea that inherited traits can be epigenetic, meaning that they are not solely down to changes in a gene's DNA."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150402161751.htm

OP and the various ideas presented throughout this thread are steadily gaining more and more empirical support as science catches up with philosophy (;


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #21494580 - 04/02/15 10:09 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Even though I can't really decipher what levels of delusion vs disorganization your posts are afflicted with, it's still an interesting article you've linked to, so thanks!   

Anyway, from the article:
"The research confirms a long-held expectation among scientists that genes could be controlled across generations by such changes. However, it remains to be seen how common the process is, researchers say."

I found this part to be the take-away point of the article.  Scientists already know epigenetics play a role in inheritance.  And this study shows nothing about how often this phenomenon occurs.

It's sort of funny how Lamarckism is making a bit of a comeback lately.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Hippocampus]
    #21496205 - 04/03/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

:grin:

The ideas here are pretty disorganized, but its essentially Lamarckism...I was originally addressing how I felt it to be absurd and dogmatic that scientists refused to consider consciousness in any aspect of evolution...

eventually delving into an intelligent universe that need not be 'god' and describing how my version of novelty
and complexity theory can be used to describe whats happening with evolution in a much broader sense that applies to much more than just the evolution of life on earth.

A lot of ideas I had written here before OP came together as I was debating..my position in OP never changed, but the details behind it grew more complex and novel as the debate went on and everything hit me like "Eureka!"
One of these days I'm going to clean it all up and present a nice little essay here..but I am still waiting for a bit more evidence to support my position before I do this.


Edited by hTx (04/03/15 11:44 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #21499282 - 04/04/15 01:25 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

How, exactly, would you propose for scientists to test for any role that consciousness has in evolution?  :satansmoking:


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: deCypher]
    #21499482 - 04/04/15 03:55 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Publish a book on what to do in order to get the most out of the knowledge of epigenetics. Meaning which experiences would be the most beneficial for your child and future generations.
Have knowledge of what not to do.
In order to not cause unnecessary phobias or negative traits which may be difficult to change.
This is a useful application and evidence that consciousness is primary in some useful and not so useful traits.


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OfflineAedium
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21580085 - 04/22/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Universaleyeni said:
Oc, I dont believe all knowledge comes from books.



Relevance?

Quote:

Also drugs can help reach an altered state of conciousness in which we disregard everything we know, and learn more than ever.



Try learning a very specific discipline merely by doing drugs. That's right! You cannot.





the truth you learn from drugs is simply truth. its not like you eat mushrooms and then all of a sudden trip your way into study hall where you have a four course curriculum of how to build a couch.

you learn the truth of the universe, the way of the wind, the vibration in throat, and the energy within. its truly a beautiful world and imo these things you learn on your own, with the help of an altered consciousness, are just as important as things taught by someone else. sometimes holding even more weight even.

personally id rather spend most of my time learning the way of my own heart rather than learning sitting in a room being taught a lesson


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Aedium]
    #21600751 - 04/26/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150424085630.htm

" The discovery raises the possibility that transmission of biological information could involve more than just genes. Centrioles may actually be carriers of information, which holds profound implications for biology and disease treatment."


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OfflineBeyondScience
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #21600874 - 04/26/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Evolution is another system created through omnipotent reason. :wink:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: BeyondScience]
    #21601118 - 04/26/15 08:08 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Evolution wasn't created, and there is no system of reason that is remotely omnipotent.  :wink:


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OfflineBeyondScience
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21601308 - 04/26/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

There is a need for omnipotent reason, and there is proof of it too. We all know DNA is only viable the way it is for humans, with our intelligence, through millions of years of evolution. There are more intelligent life-forms on our planet (towlie being one of them) that were not put here by aliens, nor made by mankind. This proves that there is omnipotence in the universe, which is what I call omnipotent reason.

Trust me dude, I've been to the Moon, Mars, and Rhea.


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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: BeyondScience]
    #21603359 - 04/27/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

It's an interesting thing.

One way I have liked to envision it, a thought-experiment so to speak, is the archaeopteryx in mid-evolution. . . the first bird.



It's kind of a principle of "if you don't use it, you lose it."  So that animal, when it was partway through developing its wings (which occurs on a time-scale of tens of thousands of years). .

It's kind of hard to explain, but it's like -- if it didn't flap its wings, it wouldn't have kept developing them.


'If you don't use it, you lose it,' can be seen very easily factually proved in evolution. . . Moles lose their eyesight, fruit flies do, all these things lose an appendage or function if they do not use it. . .

So it makes sense that if the first bird, as it was developing, did not use its wings, it would not develop them further.

This is the essential point of the counter-side to the current-theoretical understanding, as I understand it. . It could be expressed hundreds of different ways, of course, but essentially it's 'does what we do make any difference in our genes?'

There are many other things as well -- Children of parents who are inclined with a great musical aptitude, are naturally more gifted. . .

To me the fact that 'if you use it you lose it,' is a proof that the actions of one generation have an effect on the future generation -- and not just, random mutation, which results in periodic changes, etc.

Darwin was actually of this view as well -- when molecular biology and more understanding of DNA was discovered, the previous view was uprooted and replaced by the view that it is entirely due to the blind force of chance, etc. . . My understanding is that there is chance and randomness -- but also there is some self-determination involved in evolution, because it seems clear that the actions of one generation affect the natural born gifts of the next.

My 2 cents, as they say.


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InvisibleLate2theparty
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #21632990 - 05/04/15 01:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

strikes me with one flaw, the factors that shape evolution are external, and not having much to do with our consciousness, which seems to support the original idea...


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Late2theparty]
    #21636279 - 05/04/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Is this an epic troll thread or what?:lol:


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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Cognitive_Shift] * 2
    #21636446 - 05/04/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, in hTx's defense, it is far from resolved what the drivers of evolution are, and how they work.  Just witness, for example, the dramatic rise of Lamarckism in academic biological circles.  It was considered rubbish for decades by most professional biologists, and has recently become legitimate science which is causing huge revisions in orthodox Darwinist theory.

So, no, this is not a troll thread.  Just consider that we know a lot less than we think we do about just about everything.  Evolution included.  We have a decidedly far from complete view of the entire picture.


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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21638679 - 05/05/15 09:14 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, exactly.  That is a good way of putting it.  It is not that random chance in genetic mutation and genetic drift doesn't still apply, it's just that there are (at least) two, and maybe more other ways that evolution works.

Three cases.  One, a human being passing musical, mathematical, linguistic or artistic or other skills down to their offspring. 



Another thing that's interesting that I just learned, is that we share cells with each other more than we might think.  For instance, a baby and its mother, while still in the womb, have a pretty constant back-and-forth sharing of cells going on.  Frequently, the fetus' cells will go to the mother, and some of the mother's will be in her child, and also, some cells of previous children may or will likely get into the new child as well.

And each cell contains so much info. . . So this is just like how some shamans say, "All of our ancestors are here with us" we literally have cells within us from them. . . from our family going back a long ways.



Anyway the other two beings I had thoughts about in this regard are fruit-flies, going blind after a few generations without light, and another. . .

If you take a human being, and instead of a normal life, had them stay in the dark, not speaking or talking to anyone, for their whole life, so they were a dumb mute, and then after they're 30 or so, have them procreate -- how long would it be until all potential for speech, higher intelligence and the rest were obliterated, or covered over so deeply as to be almost impossibly latent?

Regardless of that. . . simply thinking about the adage, "You use it or you lose it," which seems to apply in evolution, makes it rather clear that using it will also help you gain it, in cases where you're 'using' a skill you're also helping to 'create,' that is, one that wasn't really around before you started using it.


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