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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Diploid]
    #19596873 - 02/20/14 09:17 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19597094 - 02/20/14 10:05 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
For those whom are educationally challenged or have no access to an online dictionary:

fact - a.  Something demonstrated to exist

How quoting one contrary evolutionist, rather than the entire accepted field, constitutes a fact is the height of intellectual dishonesty, but standard in your posts.





OrgoneConclusion,

please don't call members educationally challenged or make the debate personal.  Its clear who you are referring to here, and its irrelevant argumentation as well as against the rules.

Thanks.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: johnm214]
    #19598111 - 02/21/14 04:15 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

before procaryotic cells, what probably happened was a super simple enzyme that constructed phospholipids that turned into a vacuole or bag.
another enzyme would have to form to make the enzyme that makes phospholipid self forming bags
then the dna/rna layer comes into play to extend the enzyme making enzyme...
then to make it live (self replicate) a version of the enzyme replicates the DNA.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19598126 - 02/21/14 04:31 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I'd already considered this idea literally a no-brainer




:rimshot:




Haha!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19598416 - 02/21/14 07:23 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
well no one has really posited consciousness as being primary to evolution...




...

Quote:

hTx said:
As science uninhibited by dogma progresses we will see more evidence come from research supporting the theory that consciousness, lifes awareness, is primary to evolution.




:ilold:

Quote:


the research above was to counter Diploid and others arguments that animals and plants do not possess consciousness.




Which is why you specifically quoted my commentary on your statement referring to how evidence will come in from research that supports the notion that consciousness is primary to evolution...?


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #19598744 - 02/21/14 09:32 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Come on now you know what I meant :rolleyes:

I am of course positing that consciousness is primary, and said idea is pretty much a no-brainer to me. :stoned:


So is the previous posted novel (as in research released within the past year) evidence which I posted showing that plants and animals possess consciousness.

If you do not see how the research is relevant to my position than you do not understand my position. As the argument against plant and non-human animal consciousness was one of the only counter-points made on this entire thread.

a lot of the information I present in this thread is unorganized at best, let me remind you again of the main observations which show my position as being simply the more logical one. May I also remind you of the ideas in the thread below which are essential to understanding how I am viewing evolution, which is from the birth of the universe onwards and not just limited to life, most simply put as custom+novelty=evolution (quantum entanglement with accelerating complexity).
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18026971/fpart/2/vc/1#18026971
The above explains the above equation more thoroughly than I have the time to do so at the moment.

As for the main point, I will be proven essentially right if AI ever comes about. Think about this. Remember consciousness, a no-brainer?

No time atm but I will be back to explain more thoroughly soon.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19598945 - 02/21/14 10:19 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Come on now you know what I meant :rolleyes:




No, I do not: first you posted saying that research would come along that evidences the notion that consciousness is primary to evolution, then you replied to my comment on this statement with links to research, then I pointed out that this research doesn't refer to the idea that consciousness is primary to evolution, and then you stated that no one is really positing that consciousness is primary to evolution.

You've now said twice that you're supporting the notion that consciousness is primary to evolution and once when you stated that no one is actually positing it. :lol: You pretty much waive the right to the presumption that someone else knows what you meant when you completely and entirely contradict yourself. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #19599491 - 02/21/14 12:35 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Aye and all research that i posted directly  supports my theory.

As directly stated and shown above. your so hung up on rather unimportant details, and choice words that are obviously open to intepretation that you completely ignore my logic and idea. but apparently only your wrong intepretation was the correct one.
i am a nobody, i havent even made it to grad school, so in science circles i am a nobody.

Now how about attacking the actual ideas presented here


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19599550 - 02/21/14 12:52 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Aye and all research that i posted directly  supports my theory.




Yet when I point out that the research doesn't in the slightest address the concept that consciousness is primary to evolution, you claim no one ever posited it, despite the clear fact that you did, and excuse yourself by saying that the research wasn't directed to our exchange, but rather to Diploid, even though you directly quoted me. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #19599664 - 02/21/14 01:24 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

That is because i am the one addressing it, i didnt excuse myself i explain how and why said research supports my theory.

You seem to have reading comphrension problems.


As its my theory it is my job to tie research and explain the rationale as to why i consider it evidence.

As it stands i have done both throughout the entire thread.

i figured that one was a no brainer.
Not replying to further off-topic discussion.

your way to obvious, when you do this. Not sure if you derail and avoid the actual topic on purpose or have not read the thread at all.
seems rather a childish thing to do regardless..its not even clever anymore.

I still have a lot of gathered research which i have yet to reveal as evidence..one such expirement explains how the body has absolutly zero of its original atomic makeup after only seven years. Every cell reborn.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19599699 - 02/21/14 01:33 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You seem to have reading comphrension problems.




:ducklol:

WTF is 'comphrension'?

:whippedcreamhead:

I have been reading FWG's posts for over a decade. He is very intelligent, always carefully chooses his words, and strives for clarity.

You, on the other hand...

:notimpressed:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19603662 - 02/22/14 10:54 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

there must be a few threads somewhere that discuss consciousness, and I don't think anyone could agree in any of those threads as to what is meant by consciousness.
someplace in the midst of that vast ocean of disagreement and lack of comprehension there may be an interpretation that corresponds precisely with the version of consciousness that hTx uses in his theory.

sadly

I don't agree with that one either.

I think of it in terms as a consequential byproduct of moments of experiencing in an individual's cerebral cortex.
No individual, no cortex, no consciousness.

Other phenomena like media and history spread across species and across the world, but it is plain lazy to confuse those ideas with consciousness.

Of course that is part of an argument that belongs in a thread that is not the thread about evolution.

the two arguments and ideas are best kept in separate threads.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19604807 - 02/22/14 03:40 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Well perhaps we should come to some agreement here through further debate. A null hypothesis perhaps.

For example: consciousness is not involved in evolution.
Look for all evidence of the null.
Such as: the above statement may not be true due to consciousness and life having a clear connection with each other.

now we look for all evidence to prove the above statement as false.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19604873 - 02/22/14 03:59 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

what is consciousness to you... do you want to start a new thread?


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19604954 - 02/22/14 04:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I think i will or you can as we would likely recieve more community input than we would on this one.

consciousness to me simply means an existent awareness combined with intelligence.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19604991 - 02/22/14 04:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Why does it require intelligence and how do you define that to incorporate plants?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19605752 - 02/22/14 07:40 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

yes I think you need a new thread
some simple thing like what is consciousness with a a few successive polls on the consensus of what the terms mean
this elusive term is infecting the already confused discussion about evolution.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
    #19611346 - 02/24/14 07:48 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
That is because i am the one addressing it, i didnt excuse myself i explain how and why said research supports my theory.




The theory you said no one was really positing? No, you didn't explain how the research supports that theory. 

Quote:


You seem to have reading comphrension problems.




Seems unlikely. If your reading comprehension is skillful enough to assess mine, then I'm certain it could also produce a line of explanation regarding mine's fault. :wink:

Quote:


As its my theory it is my job to tie research and explain the rationale as to why i consider it evidence.




Then why, when I pointed out that the research doesn't evidence in the slightest the notion that consciousness is primary to evolution, did you state no one was really positing that notion, and qualify that the research was provided solely due to the fact that Diploid and others argued that plants do not have consciousness?

In other words, why didn't you do your job? :lol:

Quote:


As it stands i have done both throughout the entire thread.




You produced not a single line of thought that describes how that research constitutes evidence that consciousness is primary to evolution, so, therefore, you haven't done this.

Quote:


Not replying to further off-topic discussion.




I love the part where discussing what you said on the topic isn't on-topic. :smirk:

Quote:


your way to obvious, when you do this. Not sure if you derail and avoid the actual topic on purpose




The actual topic was your suggestion that consciousness is primary to evolution, no? It's hilarious that I could possibly derail and avoid the actual topic by concentrating specifically on the actual topic. :cuckoo:

Quote:


seems rather a childish thing to do regardless




You're suggesting that even a child could point out the errors in your thought processes?

Quote:

..its not even clever anymore.




So we've established that you previously felt it was clever. :lol:

Quote:


I still have a lot of gathered research which i have yet to reveal as evidence..one such expirement explains how the body has absolutly zero of its original atomic makeup after only seven years. Every cell reborn.




I look forward to your explanation on how the idea that the body consists of smaller elements which grow and die at different rates than the body itself constitutes evidence that consciousness existed before evolution. :yesnod:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #19611637 - 02/24/14 10:07 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

So bare assertion is not research nor evidence? A total PSP shocker! :whoa:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19611778 - 02/24/14 10:58 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So bare assertion is not research nor evidence? A total PSP shocker! :whoa:




:lol: I think he doesn't grok a fundamental concept - research which doesn't negate an idea doesn't constitute research that supports that idea.

So research demonstrates that many species which we might be foolish to consider as less evolved than ourselves may exhibit consciousness. This doesn't support the idea that consciousness itself is primary to evolution.

To be illustrative, I hypothesize that the moon loves marshmallows, and I mean it's absolutely giddy with passion for them. Let's say I set out a tray of them, at night, under a clear, cloudless sky, and they don't combust in flames due to a malicious act of hatred by the moon.

My experiment clearly doesn't negate my hypothesis, since, if the moon had set them alight, it'd definitely be a sign that it was not, in fact, enamored of them, since, by any sane definition of the word love, it would not destroy them if it romantically loved them.

Now, does my experiment support my hypothesis? Of course it doesn't. :shrug:

Where are the recitals of poems professing adoration? :heartpump: The persuasive serenades? :serenade: The boxes of chocolate and graham crackers? :shrug:

So, research might indicate that other species exhibit consciousness. How does this support the idea that consciousness existed prior to evolution? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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