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redgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx] 1
#19213442 - 12/01/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeah right, stoned apes unite!
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hTx
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KGB Is Go said:
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hTx said: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2013/03/05/11-ways-to-grow-new-brain-cells-and-stimulate-neurogenesis/
Evidence that experience influences mutations, and therefore evolution, and not the other way around.
Couldn't find any mention of mutation in the article. Even if it did mention experience influencing mutation, how would that be definitive in stating that it could not occur in the other direction?
Mutations must occur with directions which tell the body to do something different..since DNA is what could be called the 'instruction' manual of the body, new instructions (genetic alteration) must be read if the body is to do anything different, (such as enhanced production of brain cells).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15972961
I'm sure it does occur in the other direction as well..as we see with natural selection..which only explains one direction. Survival of the fittest genes, a secondary process of evolution, not the primary.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527441.500-horizontal-and-vertical-the-evolution-of-evolution.html
"...overwhelming recent evidence for horizontal gene transfer - in which organisms acquire genetic material "horizontally" from other organisms around them, rather than vertically from their parents or ancestors. The donor organisms may not even be the same species. This mechanism is already known to play a huge role in the evolution of microbial genomes..."
"...Darwin's explanation of evolution, they argue, even in its sophisticated modern form, applies only to a recent phase of life on Earth...
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Diploid
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx] 1
#19213567 - 12/01/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If what I posted... published in a respected scientific journal, which makes the same assertion..
BZZZT! It makes no such assertion. Your link does not even contain the word "consciousness". 
Than I think you need to look up the definition of evidence man.
Alright...
Quote:
ev·i·dence ˈevədəns/ noun: evidence
...the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
But you've posted hot air, speculation, random ramblings, and an insistence that we should accept that what you say is true because... well, just because.
I'm suggesting is that most if not all people who study evolution, never account for the most obvious facet of evolution
That's some funny shit man. Thousands of the world's brightest scientists have not only studied this but made it their life's work and cataloged mountains of evidence observed both in lab experiments and out in nature. Then you just decided that they all failed to account for "obvious" stuff that only you see. Funny shit.
The evidence I presented... doesn't yet show without a doubt that my theory is correct

Without a doubt? Hint: There is no such thing in science. Where in the world are you getting your science information? And are you really a biology major?
BTW, third time now; what you have is not a scientific theory, it is a bunch of arbitrary musings. The definition of a scientific theory is covered in grade school. C'mon man, at least have the basics down before you try to rewrite the textbooks.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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KGB Is Go
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19213671 - 12/01/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: Mutations must occur with directions which tell the body to do something different..since DNA is what could be called the 'instruction' manual of the body, new instructions (genetic alteration) must be read if the body is to do anything different, (such as enhanced production of brain cells).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15972961
You're saying mutations must occur for the body to do anything different? I think you're full of shit and don't really know what you're talking about, sorry. I don't think that reference relates much to your original link in which you spoke of experience/mutation/evolution.
I agree with others, in that you should do a broader literature review rather than seek out information to support your own theory. And as Dipload said, your approach and knowledge does not really seem like one of a scientist/biology major. Despite your fantastic idea, you actually come across as kind of closed-minded and not all that skeptical, IMO.
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hTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: Diploid]
#19213765 - 12/01/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
BZZZT! It makes no such assertion. Your link does not even contain the word "consciousness".
You were looking for the wrong kind of evidence and I think you are confused.
The article I presented had little to do with consciousness and more to do with evolution accelerating by means of increasing complexity, and how complexity is good for evolution. I even say so in OP..but you seem to be fond of cherry picking information which may just be a manifestation of how you actually read since you seem to have missed that I wasn't presenting evidence for consciousness being involved just yet, but complexity.

I think you need to look up the definition of evidence man.
Quote:
Alright...
Quote:
ev·i·dence ˈevədəns/ noun: evidence
...the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
But you've posted but hot air, speculation, random ramblings, and an insistence that we should accept that what you say is true because... well, just because.
 Dont think so, if you actually read what I wrote you'll see how my alternative explanation covers the evidence already presented, and evidence which the old theory cannot and does not account for.
Quote:
I'm suggesting is that most if not all people who study evolution, never account for the most obvious facet of evolution
That's some funny shit man. Thousands of the world's brightest scientists have not only studied this but made it their life's work and cataloged mountains of evidence observed both in lab experiments and out in nature. Then you just decided that they all failed to account for "obvious" shit that only you see. Funny shit.
lol what are you going on about..they've gathered observations and established facts which could be said to be 'objective', therefore increasing overall awareness and also complexity of the entire species, since these observations and facts are shared with the collective (at a much greater rate with the invention of the internet). A theory is a theory, and I'm not the only one who sees anything. Your grasping at straws and resorting to subtle insults.
Funny shit.
The evidence I presented... doesn't yet show without a doubt that my theory is correct because, as explained in OP it only is evidence which suggests that complexity is accelerating in life and evolution and that this is beneficial. (a key part of the overall theory)
What I just recently posted in regards to neurogenesis, is evidence of consciousness being primary in evolution..since the article suggests ways to grow brain cells, and where the experience happens before the mutation.
Your all mixed up.
Popped that cherry.
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Without a doubt? Hint: There is no such thing in science. Where in the world are you getting your science information? And are you really a biology major?
I graduate next semester, and a refined version of what I'm presenting here will be the basis of my masters thesis.
No such thing as dogma in science? Where in the world are you getting your science information? Are you really a moderator of philosophy, sociology, and psychology? Observations (science) influence the idea (theory) and the idea(theory) influences the observation. What we see as evidence of one thing, may also be evidence of another. Its how you relate the idea to the fact that makes evidence, evidence.
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BTW, third time now; what you have is not a scientific theory. This is grade-school level science shit.
Tell me about it...
the·o·ry ˈTHēərē,ˈTHi(ə)rē/Submit noun 1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained "Darwins theory of evolution."
obviously its not organized by any means, but I have proposed a system of ideas intended to explain the evolution of awareness by means of accelerating complexity.
Your confusing scientific theory with actual science.
Evolution Dogma.
dog·ma ˈdôgmə/Submit noun 1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
Edited by hTx (12/01/13 05:39 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx] 1
#19213804 - 12/01/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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what university is giving you a masters thesis for your theory?
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hTx
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Quote:
KGB Is Go said:
Quote:
hTx said: Mutations must occur with directions which tell the body to do something different..since DNA is what could be called the 'instruction' manual of the body, new instructions (genetic alteration) must be read if the body is to do anything different, (such as enhanced production of brain cells).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15972961
You're saying mutations must occur for the body to do anything different? I think you're full of shit and don't really know what you're talking about, sorry. I don't think that reference relates much to your original link in which you spoke of experience/mutation/evolution.
I agree with others, in that you should do a broader literature review rather than seek out information to support your own theory. And as Dipload said, your approach and knowledge does not really seem like one of a scientist/biology major. Despite your fantastic idea, you actually come across as kind of closed-minded and not all that skeptical, IMO.
you don't understand biology, let me explain this a little more clearly.
DNA is behind every single function in the body, it literally tells the body what to do and how to do it. If something enhances production of neurons in the body (neurogenesis) , the enhancement is due to a mutation, an alteration to the instructions.
I provided the above article to show how neurogenesis that happens by means of experience, is a physical mutation which came secondary to the experience (experience made possible by consciousness).
Experience alters DNA and this in turn also alters experience, and alterations in DNA are passed on..and life evolves and complexity increases.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
Edited by hTx (12/01/13 05:28 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19213888 - 12/01/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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not true at all yes dna codes the structure of proteins but that does not mean it controls what happens in cells tissues and organs of the body.
a progression of intracellular chemical gradients will affect which dna will be exposed - transcribed - and rendered by ribosomes into new proteins.
the expression of dna is a complex interaction well beyond the scope of this discussion.
the accumulation of dna in chromosomes is closer to a collection of survivable debris than to any decision processes
experience at the density and speed of consciousness and memory formation (and recall) is not related in any way to the structure or content of dna in any cells of the body.
dna just provides the fabric for consciousness (body and brain)
mutations that affect germ tissue and heredity are not in the scope of this.
most mutations are either fatal or insignificant. significant mutations that are survivable may lead to a new life form and if that life form survives and mates and the mutation is inherited then evolution is beginning to taking place. Usually that is indeterminate for several generations.
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hTx
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DNA is hereditary information coded by all life experience. Experience codes DNA, self-replication means DNA also codes itself. Decision process effect generations..and your views on this are obviously biased by your own decision process. http://discovermagazine.com/2013/may/13-grandmas-experiences-leave-epigenetic-mark-on-your-genes#.UpvZGMRDs5x Just look at the age old debate..'nature vs nurture' where you obviously are taking the 'nature' side..but don't you see even the term 'nature vs nurture' implies that we believe it is against nature to nurture..We should say something like nurture is nature..may help fix the cognitive dissonance.
It is the code that is read by cell structures, which structures the proteins. If anything, RNA structures proteins, since DNA uses RNA to make proteins. RNA is also code, a more portable version of DNA. RNA strands are continually made, broken down and reused. As alterations to DNA occur, so do they occur with mRNA which effects the structure of the protein (and therefore anything that has to do with the regulation of bodily functions..such as neurogenesis).
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what university is giving you a masters thesis for your theory?
I haven't decided where I want to go for graduate school just yet.
I'm a double major for psychology and biology, btw.
My theory, the proposal for my masters thesis, hopefully will help unite both branches into one.
If not,

Its just the way which makes more sense to me. Darwinism isn't something I ever fully accepted as fact or the full truth of evolution, unlike much of the scientific community.
I'm a bio major and we are taught Darwinism to a tea. Natural selection may be apart of the process of evolution, but is no where near the fully story..its an explanation of facts and observations, an explanation is not the same thing as a fact. This is why theories are theories, and facts are facts.
Darwin himself said natural selection was not the full story of evolution.
The way biology classes are designed, in pre-graduate school anyways, they don't really encourage original thought but is more a presentation of established thought and observation. A recording of 'facts' and theory (which is taught as fact) to memory.
I do not let this style of 'teaching' close my thoughts on the matter, or any matter.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
Edited by hTx (12/01/13 06:35 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19214172 - 12/01/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good for you. We need people willing to debate alternate ideas to the status quo to ensure progress. Keep going.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
teknix said:
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redgreenvines said: we make it up as we go along.
I suggest that we differentiate alive from living, alive being the ability to organize matter with DNA/RNA, etc., and define living as the same ability as alive but with motility.
Then plants and virus would be alive but not living and cows would be living and alive.
I am glad you made that up, but I do not want to use it. I find accepting good science best, and the definition of life is good because it is consistent.
It eliminates the redundancy of language. Proper categorization is good science, especially when the differentiation is profound enough to describe the different phenomena independently, rather than clumping them together when they don't really belong together. If you notice the circular logic in the definitions when living is used to define alive and alive to define living, something is wrong, being as it is not sound.
Circular definitions are not good science.
Edited by teknix (12/01/13 07:30 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19214239 - 12/01/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: DNA is hereditary information coded by all life experience. Experience codes DNA, self-replication means DNA also codes itself. Decision process effect generations..and your views on this are obviously biased by your own decision process. http://discovermagazine.com/2013/may/13-grandmas-experiences-leave-epigenetic-mark-on-your-genes#.UpvZGMRDs5x Just look at the age old debate..'nature vs nurture' where you obviously are taking the 'nature' side..but don't you see even the term 'nature vs nurture' implies that we believe it is against nature to nurture..We should say something like nurture is nature..may help fix the cognitive dissonance.
It is the code that is read by cell structures, which structures the proteins. If anything, RNA structures proteins, since DNA uses RNA to make proteins. RNA is also code, a more portable version of DNA. RNA strands are continually made, broken down and reused. As alterations to DNA occur, so do they occur with mRNA which effects the structure of the protein (and therefore anything that has to do with the regulation of bodily functions..such as neurogenesis).
you over simplify RNA - produced by a transcriptase enzyme following the pattern of exposed chromosomal DNA may be conveyed to a ribosome where protein will be built using the sequence.
even that is extremely oversimplified.
and the article referenced is talking about epigenetics not really "experience" more similar to nutrition or something gross like that -methyllation a kind of poisoning actually. (although they allude to deeper significance - journalistic sensationalism). and what do you think will be affected... you may wish to consider what an egg is made of besides the chromosomal - there is mitochondria and cytoplasmic material that conveys only matrilineal content.
99.99% of what is genetic is chromosomal and that is the legacy of evolution, and we carry it forward in our lives.
anyway, sure, do a masters, study molecular biology too because this part of your language (and thought) needs sharpening.
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hTx
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Quote:
you over simplify RNA - produced by a transcriptase enzyme following the pattern of exposed chromosomal DNA may be conveyed to a ribosome where protein will be built using the sequence.
even that is extremely oversimplified.
of course its oversimplified but you get the point, I dont' want to cover an entire chapters worth of information describing DNA/RNA propagation and the synthesis of proteins..
Quote:
and the article referenced is talking about epigenetics not really "experience" more similar to nutrition or something gross like that -methyllation a kind of poisoning actually. (although they allude to deeper significance - journalistic sensationalism). and what do you think will be affected... you may wish to consider what an egg is made of besides the chromosomal - there is mitochondria and cytoplasmic material that conveys only matrilineal content.
99.99% of what is genetic is chromosomal and that is the legacy of evolution, and we carry it forward in our lives.
anyway, sure, do a masters, study molecular biology too because this part of your language (and thought) needs sharpening.
Your own bias makes you see that nutrition isn't an experience, nor an experience which we have influence over. Influence gained and expressed through the experience itself. Nor that stress in consciousness, manifests as stress in the body..which in turn influences gene expression and DNA as well.
The studies of epigenetics are providing evidence that experiences and experience are heritable. The studies of neurogenesis are providing evidence that beneficial mutations to dna occur with experience as well, and that this too is heritable.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19214413 - 12/01/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The most simple of organisms display the most simple consciousness, which becomes more complex throughout the organisms lifetime as memories are retained and genes and genetic expression altered..and also becomes more complex throughout the entire evolutionary scale.
Humanity is the first observed life form in which consciousness evolution is easily observed to be happening in real-time by means of accelerating complexity.
it is statistically certain that huge numbers of conscious life forms (equivalent in self-awareness to human beings) have arisen throughout the Cosmos; as if conscious life has been sown (as a cosmic genome) throughout the Cosmos by the very process of cosmic evolution.
Evolution by means of accelerating complexity..custom+novelty=evolution.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19214522 - 12/01/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Humanity is the first observed life form in which consciousness evolution is easily observed to be happening in real-time by means of accelerating complexity.
I don't see it myself. I see human thinking becoming more complex with information but other than that I think humans have the same basic mental landscape as we have had in the distant past. I think humanity has been in an emotional cul-de-sac for a very long time. It's youthful folly thinking otherwise as I've often said.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: teknix]
#19214537 - 12/01/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: we make it up as we go along.
I suggest that we differentiate alive from living, alive being the ability to organize matter with DNA/RNA, etc., and define living as the same ability as alive but with motility.
Then plants and virus would be alive but not living and cows would be living and alive.
I am glad you made that up, but I do not want to use it. I find accepting good science best, and the definition of life is good because it is consistent.
It eliminates the redundancy of language. Proper categorization is good science, especially when the differentiation is profound enough to describe the different phenomena independently, rather than clumping them together when they don't really belong together. If you notice the circular logic in the definitions when living is used to define alive and alive to define living, something is wrong, being as it is not sound.
Circular definitions are not good science.
Aye.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
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Quote:
Icelander said: Humanity is the first observed life form in which consciousness evolution is easily observed to be happening in real-time by means of accelerating complexity.
I don't see it myself. I see human thinking becoming more complex with information but other than that I think humans have the same basic mental landscape as we have had in the distant past. I think humanity has been in an emotional cul-de-sac for a very long time. It's youthful folly thinking otherwise as I've often said.
Aw, yes well I figured I should have been a bit more specific..
the collective consciousness of the species, is what I was referencing...evolution meaning general trend towards greater complexity.
This happens on a microscale in the individual, but alas, the individual dies. The species lives on. in regards to our collecitve increasing awareness of things..consciousness is indeed evolving...and even has a secondary process of natural selection with regards to ideas surviving the individual that came up with them. (memetics).
The overall awareness of external objects in the average man 10,000 years ago is much less than now, and the overall complexity of his consciousness much more simple...due to the lack of information/complexity around him.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Icelander
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19214635 - 12/01/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Humanity is the first observed life form in which consciousness evolution is easily observed to be happening in real-time by means of accelerating complexity.
I don't see it myself. I see human thinking becoming more complex with information but other than that I think humans have the same basic mental landscape as we have had in the distant past. I think humanity has been in an emotional cul-de-sac for a very long time. It's youthful folly thinking otherwise as I've often said.
Aw, yes well I figured I should have been a bit more specific..
the collective consciousness of the species, is what I was referencing...evolution meaning general trend towards greater complexity.
This happens on a microscale in the individual, but alas, the individual dies. The species lives on. in regards to our collecitve increasing awareness of things..consciousness is indeed evolving...and even has a secondary process of natural selection with regards to ideas surviving the individual that came up with them. (memetics).
The overall awareness of external objects in the average man 10,000 years ago is much less than now, and the overall complexity of his consciousness much more simple...due to the lack of information/complexity around him.
Yes I see that but it's not any kind of evolution that impresses me. If we stay emotionally stunted as we have then information evolution will likely still leave us in a cul-de-sac at best or extinct at worse.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hTx
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Re: Evolution Dogma [Re: hTx]
#19214642 - 12/01/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But evolved consciousness still exist in the individual, mutants are abound, just not enough of them to effect what is considered 'average'.
The 8-circuit model of consciousness suggested this much as well, and also describes a map showing how consciousness has evolved/is evolving.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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