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 z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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 Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing!  [Re: silversoul7]
#1916930 - 09/14/03 10:50 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I personally like the idea of a flat tax. Just a dream I suppose...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1916938 - 09/14/03 10:52 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: z@z.com]
#1916946 - 09/14/03 10:55 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
z@z.com said:
I personally like the idea of a flat tax. Just a dream I suppose...
I understand that, but we'd have to cut back spending a great deal(which in some cases wouldn't be such a bad thing) and it might possibly mean a larger tax burden on those making the least amount of money, making things harder on them, when they really need the money more to survive.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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 Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1916955 - 09/14/03 10:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
What an angry little boy.
Don't worry, you'll grow up someday.
oh boy, really? can I drive a big 'ol ford truck too when I'm a grown up?
it's sooo funny that you actually think that being an old man on a site full of kids makes you come off as anything but pathetic. that, and the fact that no matter when I come on this board, you are ALWAYS on, ready to respond to ANYONE who will talk to you. I guess that goes with being old, the not having real friends or anything productive to do.
if only I could be so "grown up" as to live off of the need of others for shelter.... you've really made a good point, LDS 
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Malachi]
#1917075 - 09/14/03 11:44 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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So, as usual, the point of the actual article has been lost in the rhetoric and short-sighted finger pointing.
Here's the skinny:
In the last 10 or so years, we have lost a few hundred THOUSAND manufacturing jobs due to US companies closing US plants and relocating their plants out of the country to take advantage of low-cost labor, lax environmental regulation, and tax breaks designed to lure said jobs, as well as the discontinuation of manufacturing plants by corporate "retailers" and the subsequent contracting of (again, overseas) factories to make the products once made in the US by Americans.
And if any of you ask me for a "link, please", I'll punch you in the nose. It's fact, and well documented. If you don't believe it, then YOU prove to ME that it's not true, and I'll shaddup. And if you're too lazy for that, just read "No Logo" by Naomi Klein.
At last count (that I have seen), in 1999, international labor organizations estimated that there were about 130,000 "Export Free Zones" - essentially foreign operated, privately owned, TAX FREE factories - which employed an estimated 18 million people, primarily in China, Phillipines, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Saipan. The vast majority of the factories operating in these EFZs were contractors (and sub-contractors) for American companies, producing goods to be sold in the US. Nike, The Gap, Tommy Hilfiger, Reebok, and The Limited are among the largest contractees in these factories. Coincidentally, it is estimated that better than 90% of the 18 million employees in EFZ factories do not make a living wage - in china, the living wage is 87 cents (US) a day. Most people working in EFZ factories in China make 60 to 65 cents a day.
And oddly enough, we still pay $100 for a pair of Nikes.
But I digress.
The tax cuts requested in the article above are not random tax cuts; they are not "to make it appear they give a shit about the little guy"; it has nothing to do with the 'fact' that "that the control of that money left their grubby little fingers."
What it is is simply an attempt to keep another few hundred thousand manufacturing jobs from leaving the country by giving some incentive to companies who still do their own manufacturing - thereby providing jobs to actual americans - to KEEP their manufacturing facilities in the US.
And regarding the "ultra-wealthy" who are "already paying MUCHMUCHMUCH more taxes than you ever will"... well, as that particular sentiment applies to this thread (god forbid we should apply our sentiments to their contextual positions...), take this as an example.
General Motors, between 1988 and 1994, moved over 40,000 manufacturing jobs from Michigan alone. In one year in the early nineties (I'm not going to quote a year, cuz I don't remember which one it was and someone will throw that in my face as a reason that everything I've said is wrong up 'till that point if I mis-speak), a year in which GM's total profit was in the neighborhood of 13 billion dollars, they did not pay one red cent in taxes. Let me repeat that in case you missed it:
GM
Profit per annum = 13 Billion dollars
Jobs lost over 6 year period in MI alone = 40,000
Taxes paid = $0
I paid a few hundred dollars taxes in 1994, despite making only $14 thousand dollars that year (teaching some of your children, I imagine). And GM paid none.
So when we offer tax breaks to companies who plan to keep jobs in the US, I say kudos and huzzah and all those other words that sound like that. And while we're at it, we need to start taxing the FUCK out of companies who are moving jobs OUT of the country at breakneck pace.
And, again, I have to comment on this forum in general. It's too goddamn bad that people can't step outside of their little hate filled bubbles of pre-conception to at least attempt to see the big picture; to ask the real questions. But being the obnoxious little idealist I am, I can't help but try.
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Phred]
#1917092 - 09/14/03 11:49 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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pink,
But can you atleast recognize that primarily Joes like you, your girlfriend, and your parents.. if they arent wealthy and have the standard options pack from your company or have dabbled a little in the market arent getting that much back from said dividend cut. Most people now a days count on those options to supplement their income, some even as part of their income. Wouldnt cutting the federal income tax help you out even more then your dividend tax.. I think it probably would most people in our exisiting society. What exactly does cutting the dividend tax for people who do have expendible income do for the majority of Americans that need tax relief to help them get by?
Im not saying that the dividend cut doesnt help out the middle class through the upperclass, but with an increasingly small middle class... who is it ultimately helping and in what percentages across the board?
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Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: GernBlanston]
#1917158 - 09/15/03 12:10 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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 well put! 
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: GernBlanston]
#1917219 - 09/15/03 12:32 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Gern,
Im telling you.. outsourcing and unemployment.
It gets em everytime.
I mean, fuck, Malachi said "Well put." 
Also, on the same topic:
True Unemployment Rate 9.1 %
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Edited by PsiloKitten (09/15/03 12:45 AM)
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: GernBlanston]
#1917301 - 09/15/03 01:21 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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God, I wish I could rate you another 5 shrooms after reading that post!
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Malachi]
#1917414 - 09/15/03 03:42 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are a strange little boy. Your obsession with me isn't healthy for you. Go out and play for a change.
You'll be happier as a result. And perhaps a bit less of an ass as well.
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oh boy, really? can I drive a big 'ol ford truck too when I'm a grown up?
Try growing up and see.
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ALWAYS
Since you don't seem to know the meaning of the word...
Main Entry: al?ways
Pronunciation: 'ol-wEz, -w&z, -(")wAz also 'o-
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English alwayes, from alwey
Date: 14th century
1 : at all times : INVARIABLY
2 : FOREVER, PERPETUALLY
3 : at any rate : in any event
Quote:
if only I could be so "grown up" as to live off of the need of others for shelter
Don't worry, I doubt you'll ever be a sucess at anything but hatred & racisim, so you'll be one of those who have to rent their "shelter".
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Malachi]
#1917638 - 09/15/03 08:11 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Malachi, I've warned you about this shit before, both gently in public and more strongly in PM. Consider this post an official warning. It will be copied to the Admins. Next time you pull crap like this, you will be banned -- yet again.
If you are incapable of addressing the issue under discussion in a thread in this forum rather than doing nothing more than expressing your perception of the character of the poster, my suggestion to you is to refrain from posting in this forum.
The choice is yours. Abide by the rules or be banned.
pinky
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1917708 - 09/15/03 09:14 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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You kids rock
Nice find on that unemployment article, PsiloKitten. I have been looking for a figure representing those (who, like myself until only very recently) were out of work but not listed with a job agency - how would we have been counted? I knew that my unemployment (which, before we get off on a tangent yet again, was caused by an incredibly weak job market in my town) was not counted as part of that 6.1% stat, and I was wondering if there was anyone out there who realized that.
Strangely enough, even after sending this article to him (the 9.1% unemployment rate article) to a stockbroker friend of mine, he is arguing tooth and nail that the economy is improving every day. Just shows to go ya how different people's definitions of the same topic are when they internalize them.
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: GernBlanston]
#1918040 - 09/15/03 12:18 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is a reply to all those that claim the tax cuts are only for the rich. I know your wonderful democratic presidential candidates all claim this, so you must believe it. The fact is though, it is bullshit. The dividend tax cut makes sense because it will get rid of the unfair double taxation of corporate profits. This benefits anyone that has any money in the market. I am not rich at all, and I will benefit from this in my 401k and my meager stock holdings. The other big tax cut actually cut the rate of taxation across the board. The EIC cut will not help anyone that is rich, it will only help those families that qualify for it.
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Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Phred]
#1919573 - 09/15/03 08:20 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said:
Malachi, I've warned you about this shit before, both gently in public and more strongly in PM. Consider this post an official warning. It will be copied to the Admins. Next time you pull crap like this, you will be banned -- yet again.
If you are incapable of addressing the issue under discussion in a thread in this forum rather than doing nothing more than expressing your perception of the character of the poster, my suggestion to you is to refrain from posting in this forum.
The choice is yours. Abide by the rules or be banned.
pinky
look, the republican internet clique strikes again!
Quote:
little boy
Quote:
grow up
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strange little boy
Quote:
ass
Quote:
Try growing up
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I doubt you'll ever be a sucess at anything but hatred & racisim
so can everyone see clearly the double standard imposed by a republican mod on a "neutral" board? obviously there is just as much "flame" in LDS's posts, yet for *some* reason... only I am publicly chastized. could it be because my insults aren't lame repetitions? no... I doubt that... could it maybe, just maybe be that I'm not "flaming" at all, that in fact LDS's numerous put downs of minority culture (his rationale for the disparity between the economic status of the races- white/ asian culture has "work ethic", whereas the hip hop makes blacks lazy- of couse I paraphrase, but this is undeniably LDS's thought) are indicitive of a slightly subtle, slightly latent (for other white republicans perhaps... it's clear as day to me) racism?
no, it couldn't be that, I'm the racist, remember? LDS is constantly spewing that statement (not a flame, eh pinksharkmark? it's ok when a white guy calls a brown guy a racist, because obviously brown guys just throw around the term in place of good rational arguments... right? cause like LDS always says, white priviledge is just a myth used by greedy minorities... so this would follow.... *rationally*.)
even in the last post, LDS shows his racism, somehow thinking that masking it in class prejudice is "better" than "outright" racism.
Quote:
you'll be one of those who have to rent their "shelter".
funny... what kinds of people rent most in this country, and what kinds of people are homeowners?
hm.. well, young people rent... laborers tend to rent... OH YEAH, minorities rent too! but since LDS doesn't say "nigger", he's not racist. and I am. and I am attacking a speculative nothing, I'm not talking about what LDS says over and over again, I'm just an "angry minority" trying to "steal" from the good hard working whites and asians. oh, the humanity!
well guess what. I work almost full time in a corporate factory, I'm paying my OWN WAY through college this year (no, hawaiians don't get federal money... we were too busy trying to get out of the US under the UN anti-colonialism resolution... too bad hawaii "voted" the very year of the resolution to become a state, thereby avoiding UN sanctions... the "election" was quite saddam-style. we also PAY for the meager porton of land that was supposed to be "compensation" for the destruction of our culture.... despite all this, LDS and his buddies-in-thought are now attacking what little land is left in hawaiian hands under the banner.... of RACISM! now there's some fucking humanity!) and guess what? I'm also helping my dad totally renovate an investment property, exactly the "hard work" that LDS does to pay for his new 4x4.
yeah, I'm just a whinny little brownie, deserving of a good talking to when I get "out of line".
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: shakta]
#1919587 - 09/15/03 08:23 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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"unfair double taxation of corporate profits"
HAHAHAHAHAHA
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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Anonymous
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Malachi]
#1919636 - 09/15/03 08:39 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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malachi, when people call you an idiot, it's not so much a flame but rather a simple objective observation...
as for that post you just made...
it was painful to even try to read. learn how to use punctuation and form complete sentences.
you're the only person on the board who has judged anyone based on their skin color, so your status as a known-racist is not unfounded. meanwhile, try as you may, but your assumptions about other's racial prejucices are unfounded.
p.s. listen brotha, i don't know if you know this, but i'm black... so i'm cool, ya dig? i'm just tryin to help you out.
(me on the left)
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Malachi]
#1919799 - 09/15/03 09:20 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Malachi writes:
obviously there is just as much "flame" in LDS's posts, yet for *some* reason... only I am publicly chastized.
You were the one who started things off, despite both private and public warnings not to do so again. Your very first post in the thread addressed not the issue of tax cuts in general, or even the fact that someone found it noteworthy that Democrats might actually favor tax cuts for giant corporations -- no, it was entirely composed of an attack on your perception of the character of the member who cut and pasted an article for discussion.
To refresh your memory, here is your post in its entirety:
how simplistic can LDS thought get? any more? no, I thought not.
real "mature" man.
You characterized (with no provocation) a member as simple and immature merely because he posted an article about Democratic support for corporate tax cuts, with no commentary other than a "Whadda ya know!"
As the sticky post at the top of the first page points out, this is unacceptable behavior in this forum. If other forums tolerate this kind of behavior, feel free to post in other forums.
My unofficial warning in public, our subsequent PM dialogue, and the previous bannings administered to you for your similar tactics in other forums seem not to matter to you. I don't have the power to force you to alter your behavior, but I do have the power to recommend to the Admins that you be banned. It's up to you.
The further ranting and character assassination in which you indulge in the rest of your post is enough for me to have the admins "push the button" immediately, but because I am feeling especially tolerant right at this minute, I won't. You've had your chance to blow off steam at this perceived "injustice" -- now that you've got it out of your system I suggest you play by the rules.
pinky
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Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: ]
#1919842 - 09/15/03 09:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said:
malachi, when people call you an idiot, it's not so much a flame but rather a simple objective observation...
as for that post you just made...
it was painful to even try to read. learn how to use punctuation and form complete sentences.
you're the only person on the board who has judged anyone based on their skin color, so your status as a known-racist is not unfounded. meanwhile, try as you may, but your assumptions about other's racial prejucices are unfounded.
p.s. listen brotha, i don't know if you know this, but i'm black... so i'm cool, ya dig? i'm just tryin to help you out.
(me on the left)
oh, ok, you sure addressed the point man. those grammar attacks sure drive home real substance. oh, and the "known" bit, that doesn't smack of a childish appeal to popularity at all, oh no, no fallacy there.
good job man, while you can say that I look like an ass, you actually display your assness quite clearly.
and no, I doubt that you are black. if you are, only in skin, not in culture.
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Malachi]
#1919894 - 09/15/03 09:47 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Let it go, kids.
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: I guess Dems don't find all tax cut's a bad thing! [Re: Phred]
#1919922 - 09/15/03 09:57 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said:
Malachi writes:
obviously there is just as much "flame" in LDS's posts, yet for *some* reason... only I am publicly chastized.
You were the one who started things off, despite both private and public warnings not to do so again. Your very first post in the thread addressed not the issue of tax cuts in general, or even the fact that someone found it noteworthy that Democrats might actually favor tax cuts for giant corporations -- no, it was entirely composed of an attack on your perception of the character of the member who cut and pasted an article for discussion.
To refresh your memory, here is your post in its entirety:
how simplistic can LDS thought get? any more? no, I thought not.
real "mature" man.
You characterized (with no provocation) a member as simple and immature merely because he posted an article about Democratic support for corporate tax cuts, with no commentary other than a "Whadda ya know!"
As the sticky post at the top of the first page points out, this is unacceptable behavior in this forum. If other forums tolerate this kind of behavior, feel free to post in other forums.
My unofficial warning in public, our subsequent PM dialogue, and the previous bannings administered to you for your similar tactics in other forums seem not to matter to you. I don't have the power to force you to alter your behavior, but I do have the power to recommend to the Admins that you be banned. It's up to you.
The further ranting and character assassination in which you indulge in the rest of your post is enough for me to have the admins "push the button" immediately, but because I am feeling especially tolerant right at this minute, I won't. You've had your chance to blow off steam at this perceived "injustice" -- now that you've got it out of your system I suggest you play by the rules.
pinky
so are you saying that all that matter is "who started it"? you don't recognize that this is an ongoing thing?
besides, calling an article choice "simplistic" and a sarcastic "real mature man" (to a person who CONSTANTLY attacks me on the grounds of my lack of maturity... ) is really really tame. come on, this IS the internet and all. compare that to the tone that LDS displayed in response to that relatively tame little jab:
Quote:
Bullshit
in response to silversoul
Quote:
What an angry little boy.
Don't worry, you'll grow up someday.
in response to "simplistic thought" note, not "you're simplistic". a subtle point, but you seem hellbent on basing your comments on attacks to the person, not a more accurate assessment of the overall implications of what is espoused - like the "culture is the blame" line that LDS is so fond of.
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silliest comments to date
at least as bad as "simplistic", wouldn't you agree?
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Your lamest post to date.
really on topic, right? this is the shining example?
Quote:
And no, you're not doing well.
is this how to contribute to an argument? perhaps silversoul just needed to be "put in his place" by LDS. after all, he is a liberal... oh, wait, you're objective though, right mark?
of course, I've already quoted LDS's other stunning examples of maturity and honest intellectual intent.
but you choose to ignore what I am saying, of course, because it acknowledge the bias would put you in a pretty bad light.
could you at *least* admit that his the "renting" insult was grossly inappropriate, just on the basis of class prejudice (ignoring the latent racial implications). cause if you won't, I have no choice but to chalk you up as biased. and that's no way for a mod to be.
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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