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InvisibleRahz
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Feelings and perception
    #19156877 - 11/18/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Can perception exist without feeling? Can feeling exist without perception?

Is there a clear difference between the feelings we experience and the effect on our feelings caused by the perception and intellectualization of them?

IOW, is it possible to experience ones feelings with no bias or is bias a part of experiencing feelings/emotion?


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (11/18/13 09:27 PM)


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
    #19157295 - 11/18/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think they are the same thing.

Faulty and unclear at times, but the only radar we have (other than knowledge) for navigating through this world.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
    #19157696 - 11/18/13 11:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They can exist without one another, such as a computer can develop perception yet I don't think that would equate to feeling. Perception = observation, so facial recognition is a sort of perception, yet that doesn't equate to the computer feeling as feeling is more subjective than the objective data gained through perception.

How would we ever really know if a machine felt something?


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: teknix]
    #19157847 - 11/19/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think one can make an argument that if a computer can perceive, that means it must feel to some degree.

To perceive is to believe in separation.
You perceive A or B. You feel a certain way about both through perception.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
    #19158017 - 11/19/13 01:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

To perceive is to believe in separation.
You perceive A or B. You feel a certain way about both through perception.




That's it exactly. The paradox is that less bias seems more sublime yet the mind is prone to bias. In response to a poster characterizing the founding fathers as wise men I once said they were men in high positions who experienced brief moments of lucidity. Whether true or not the sentiment is there that people spend most of their time entrained in biased viewpoints, held in place by a looping feedback of thought and emotion.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
    #19158353 - 11/19/13 05:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

sensations are not feelings...
the language fails us

we can say feel this - and you run your fingers over it to get the texture.
you get the sensations.
but you use the word feeling for that.

then use the word for feelings to reference emotions
and use the word to convey feeling pain or pleasure.

only the last makes any sense analytically.

1. feeling is only about pain or pleasure linked to an experience.
2. emotion comes from memories/associations/perceptions that carry pain or pleasure mixed into any experience. i.e. it is a linked association complex.
and
3. sensation is the fresh input issue. prior to any linkage.

sensation leads association (linkage - for which perception is one of the labels)

feeling emerges if there is pain or pleasure in the linked situation.

emotion emerges if perception or association invokes a memory (triggered by sensation linkages) and if there is pain or pleasure in that memory

------that is the basics of associative cognition-------------

however:
sensation can be from any sense including thought or memory itself which is equivalent to sensation in the cerebral cortex.
and since you may have an emotional memory with feelings arise, that in itself becomes a triggering sensation: which may be followed by a perception (i.e. linking to something else)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19159222 - 11/19/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Language does have it's difficulties. I never meant to bring up tactile sensation. Just examining the difference between reactionary feelings/emotions and the feelings/emotions that arise when contemplating something.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
    #19159534 - 11/19/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Language does have it's difficulties. I never meant to bring up tactile sensation. Just examining the difference between reactionary feelings/emotions and the feelings/emotions that arise when contemplating something.




those are the same thing.

In abhidhamma, there is a great deal of effort to separate prompted and non-prompted mind moments, which can have feelings associated (pain or pleasure).

In my opinion, there is no difference between real prompted or unprompted mental events. (i.e. no unprompted events ever occur)

non-prompted or spontaneous are equivalent,
spontaneous just means the prompt is not apparent.
some prompting is clear, like cause and effect, this causes that.
other prompting may seem to be spontaneous, but is really concertive, i.e. several minor contributing elements act in concert to prompt or drive the response.

the response comes from (associative) mind and is always equivalent in character whether elicited by a clear cause or seeming to have no cause.

(this particular discussion would drives naturally into the issues related to free will - i.e. if you can't really be spontaneous, then can you ever be free?)

=========

separately when I say sensation, meaning sensory input to the cerebral cortex, it includes tactile as well as all other sensations, including imagined ones.
there is not real difference there either: this means that the presence of a physical cause to a sensation (reality's impact) is not significantly different from the recollection of the same sensation as far as mental processes go.

the real world sensation, however, will often be accompanied by a train of consequences, and that is not expected from a recalled sensation.

I don't use sensation to include feeling, and feeling is a binary or polar  (pain pleasure) thing, while emotion has a much wider scope of memories that are enriched (or impoverished) with feelings.


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19160312 - 11/19/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

feelings are about positive freedom relative sense of others to oneself conscious freedom possible free means about its own free existing identity

perceptions are about objective superiority which is always out of absolute facts knowledge in the existing matter of own self being present fact

objective superiority is the only thing that could be perceived in concept when existence is only about superior different realities presence

but present cannot be sensed of else when oneself being is the present right and when present in the objective sense of reality cannot be more then one

that is why we cant realize else superiority without giving our own

by inventing a superior behavior with objective existence that would be still verified in all aspects of self being true, we would perceive a relative superiority present of else in the reality of own self objective superiority.. then it would be sensed too how the present is different always as it relies on freedom rights in true identifications of freedom truth, that would reveal free superiority of others which must be recognized to stay in the same mean of objective superiority being a fact, which is difficult because others freedom are present sense..

the future sense is to self freedom, but not before getting back to truth freedom and recognize its right existence being always present else, it is only by recognizing truth freedom in objective perspectives that we later get to become more free as out of truth reality, more existing conscious out of all
while we don't get anything in recognizing others free superiority, on the contrary ...

then else and other is always the truth superiority only

so other is never really superior to another not on objective absolute fact, any freedom is only positive mean, while truth freedom is only superior means as it is never anyone like we are individuals freedom, which has its own value but not superiority

then our beings are superior because of being true, which also prove that truth is what exist
the sense of superiority is the only possible way which exist first so last as forever

so actually there is only superiority objectivity because it is the truth identity which is never present as it is always superior to all present facts

then it means how reality is about free superior realizations to truth objectivity, since it would be of truth freedom first

while it also means that the future right is to act in terms of being different to truth, so the actualization of else value before others, so all what freedom is in individual true value so absolutely that is why individually, for objective sense, is another value then superiority

this is why I guess all individuals seem to love to force a certain value of being free means that are not true

and maybe why truth is sponsoring that till now even when they are obviously lying in evil absolute force, so hate freedom actually

I think truth should mean, what at the end, all ones that meant superiority value as being free their identity means, will lose

and all who meant nothing, would still be forced to exist

and all who meant being different then superiority value so in the relative sense out of everything and also everyone, would win something which is like freedom right sponsored to exist as it wants 


Edited by absols (11/19/13 04:03 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19160402 - 11/19/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

samsara(ignorance) then recognition of objective superiority? Then freedom from conditioned reaction/thought; seen as constant positivity? Then results in loss of conditioned self identity? Freedom, not attached to objective superiority/subjectivity; freedom to come and go as you please? Suffering no longer arising?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
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"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/19/13 04:17 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
    #19160440 - 11/19/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think its possible to have feelings without personal attachment or bias.

Anger/irritability rises and fades away no effect(can't say no effect but didn't take control) on the moments immediately afterward or during(other then observing/acknowledging), no bias. Happens to me all the time.

Stubbed my toe earlier, at first painful then made aware of what just happened... shined light of awareness on pain. Pain became pleasure. I think I viewed both without bias.


Edited by Sse (11/19/13 09:56 PM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19160624 - 11/19/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:smile: :aweohyou:
Quote:

Sse said:
samsara(ignorance) then recognition of objective superiority? Then freedom from conditioned reaction/thought; seen as constant positivity? Then results in loss of conditioned self identity? Freedom, not attached to objective superiority/subjectivity; freedom to come and go as you please? Suffering no longer arising?




interesting post .. samsara what are you selling ??


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19160649 - 11/19/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

samsara is selling one way trips through space :smile:

price: mental slavery :tongue:

destination the corner of being, non-being and no non-being. in the city of no idea and the state of not thinking. 

the plane won't land until we put down the map, there won't be any signs anyhow :p



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/19/13 05:22 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19160810 - 11/19/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Myths about freedom from conditioned mentality are not healthy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19160819 - 11/19/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Samsara is belief in those myths instead of working with the material we got


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19160848 - 11/19/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Samsara is conditioned existence, location: interdependent co-arising

freedom from conditioned mentality isn't a myth in my experience, though it can be seen as another form of conditioning, imo it is more like deconditioning. A dissolving of the conditioned response that I am use to

Everything can be viewed from many different angles

Samsara is the material we have to work with... from birth many of us are conditioned, that conditioning often takes control of everything we perceive, it paints our world/experience. Many of our perceptions are erroneous(pretty much all of my perceptions are to some degree). By letting go of conditioned thought/attachment/response/duality we can find freedom, peace, liberation, equanimity. Things that were problems are no longer problematic. Perceived negatives no longer effect negatively.

No longer a slave to conditioned impulse/reaction. My mind isn't as shaped by circumstance, my reactions are no longer as unpredictable. The distinction between then and now is like then being chained to my minds reactions/thoughts and now my life plays on a much less personal note; things that affected me before very deeply now slide right off. It truly is liberation. It really is like developing a mind coated with Teflon. :tongue: I can't think of anything more freeing then developing a mind that doesn't cling to anything(clings to nothing).

"He who binds to himself a joy
does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise."

-William Blake

"No matter what is going on in your life, and no matter what you are doing, you would do well to regularly look into the mirror of your own mind and examine what is taking place, while checking out your motivation and intentions. Self-reflection and inquiry can help us turn every part of our work into part of our spiritual path, just more grist for the mill"
-Lama Surya Das


Edited by Sse (11/19/13 08:06 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19163374 - 11/20/13 02:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you can  see an ocean of people in samsara surrounding you.
including you.

they are suffering, and there is usually little to be done except be compassionate.

occasionally they become open to seeing:
and in seeing they are liberated from the binding chains.

even that is a metaphor.

what locks people in are habit, physics, biology, & life.
the last 3 are not samsara, they are just reality.


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19163772 - 11/20/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you can  see an ocean of people in samsara surrounding you.
including you.

they are suffering, and there is usually little to be done except be compassionate.

occasionally they become open to seeing:
and in seeing they are liberated from the binding chains.

even that is a metaphor.

what locks people in are habit, physics, biology, & life.
the last 3 are not samsara, they are just reality.




thanks to your replies to samsara... even if it concerns you only, I like to say thanks for what to me it matters a lot, not for anyone needs to, but it always move me as I know how hard is to defend the truth and how it is free giving when no one has the time nor the money for, I mean the fuel...

samsara ... this lady exposed her crap and I have to make an exposition of its liquidation... it cant stay here positive without any rejection to its negative clear fact

the too easy way should not gain more fresh grounds ... since existence is known being absolutely true so freely positive reality, all is about getting powers over that fact, till they reached a way where they can appear constantly more real then reality sources.. pure freedom still presence to be able to kill by facing it from above.. shows the all from the starting point being evil, the program of existence for the same will,

that is surely how those free wills in our existence dimensions are of course stronger, while we the true freedom are tied to forces seeking to weaken us and our rights to the maximum, while cutting any possible relation with free roofs realities, by constant intervention forcing their presence as the real roof, to get rights killed faster

all existence is programmed for powers over truth rights, all is about powers to what could pretend being in a position to force determinations of facts in the name of truth rights... total nonsense of the highest position which is like a huge vague of energetic conscious able to know all from single move.. then determining all according to its will... the power on its knowledge value, to ensure its freedom first too of the base while also willing to ensure that way forever as the new base to its freedom best position for

it seems like, the more you are born on highest levels, the more you are evil, as the more you are totally wrong by meaning the right next to you, choosing to  not respect rights objective present existence or to support rights values,  to force being instead of it

maybe the fact is what basically freedom is not right, so only freedom rights exist

then the more the freedom is exposed to right sources, the more they are evil of being absolutely always the free will to possess its existence rights, surely from knowing how rights mean to give to truth a lot and loose some of their rights for truth superiority, to keep the roof open for better free realities according to more superior existing standards of truth perfective value, so they know how rights stay still as nothing to reduce their own freedom presence energy needs..

so there is always aside freedom that see that as an opportunity dreaming about getting it all for sure and ensure the ends before acting absolutely for

it says I guess, how one is the enemy of another because freedom is negative first, the easy ways of being individually are first, like how they have no least standard of ethics nor means of being constant, because actually they mean to get the most from the least, the wrong freedom like nothing by doing all

in a way this shows how it is always the truth which is any too


so everyone is conditioned for another power to be over where he is right, there is a lot of knowledge I guess that allows it
like the knowledge that rights must be real to be right, so by forcing individuality isolation and the will to destroy it, rights cant get support as individual positive self freedom source, rights would look wrong as positive object beings against objective truth which existence is only objectively free, so easy to enslave and force to be in more worse conditions..as normal end

I guess the time now for saying such things could mean what they were surprised by the truth always, what Satanism and evil genuine sources of the grounds shown being also more real then all programmed realities sources, how truth kept winning the fields,  and also gods are more free then above in the same mean getting then all the powers of that living mean in all the true possible grounds, powers gain enough to create some conditions too so different programs are running .. which also might point the nothing right field being totally destroyed, for what the concept of nothing stopped of being possible to say, the linear genuine sense of any is reversed, so all is really for worse

samsara is one of those voices freedom kind wills, like pointing everything conditioning to condition them more consciously

who really wants to free himself from conditioning would throw everything knowing that it cant talk about, a word is more for it and through, but would act free according to the present free possible existing fresh mean, while speaking about conditioning is meaning to take advantage of that fact by starting to bring it to life as a sense

like willing to suggest others means by making the conditioning way being the exclusive source of existence

pointing what you can never know, yourself determinism, is actually meant to call everyone a sinner or inferior thing in the mean to liberate gods and conditioning forces

but it is more in absolute mean of those kind, to force a reality absent of truth, by inventing the ways to convince others to be useless sources, so anyone would believe being able to liberate himself and live the corruption that he might enjoy to end in  being for powers too, at the most inferior level of that too old ladder of free will

do you see why I thank you ?? truth is too far abused so to mean justice it becomes too complicated... I like any sense of others different ways to mean the same end


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19163851 - 11/20/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

a burning person needs to be doused


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19164873 - 11/20/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

there cannot be a burning person by definition.. a person is whether itself only or out of all individuals condition.. so it proves how you invent to say that exactly like samsara, for what you are surely competing in same business of that time

you should start to get more offensive, when you clearly show what you mean to burn people by forcing the image of fallacies, truth is after you.. you want to mean being in different situation than others, as if you could belong to some powers that can save you from the truth


it is the only true sense of being all one, only one superiority as a conception of the whole as present like..

but when all are of lies, then freedom are forced to constant minus end..while objective is supported to recognize truth being the only fact

the fact that you think being to lies, so to constant change nature..is going to show being more the opposite everyday

when bad do the worse, you believe it is the way to mean it true, for good possessions..when it is the opposite

when bad do the worse it means it is the end

you cant play with any superiority over yourself.. so when you mean to get over the truth.. it is actually the most radical end from ever becoming the only present truth

and put your needs to glorify such inferiority as a hell of a god to yourself end alone..there is no god nor hell..there is only the truth of existence, being by killing negative inferiority

positive truth is out of negative absence being to superiority reasons

it is all to same truth actualized living fact..


Edited by absols (11/20/13 12:14 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19165037 - 11/20/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

samsara to me is just conditioned existence plain and simple... nothing more nothing less

habit, physics, biology, all of life is a form of conditioned existence

there is no escape from the interdependent nature of life, even if I were to develop a mind that clings to nothing what so ever, I am still tied to samsara. I guess that's why they say samsara and nirvana are one, enlightenment(however you view this) and conditioned existence are one.

Samsara to me is reality; subjective reality and objective reality.

I don't have any desire to leave/escape samsara just a will to transcend the mental conditioning particularly the ones that take control of your life/experience, conditions that inhibit... I stay away from delving to deep into the mystical or fanciful. I just want a happier life..

I see people everyday crying over spilled milk so to speak and it seems like such a waste of energy... life is so short and it seems nonsensical to allow myself to get caught up in anything that is happening. I can face all with equanimity, I have control over the way I conduct myself and what controls my experience. Its hard for me to see a reason why anyone else couldn't release the grips their conditioning has on their conscious if it could just get through to them and sink in, but your right there isn't much to be done but give compassion and try to brighten or endure with them. Such petty things ruining peoples days/weeks/lives and its mainly to do with perspective/dwelling. complaining, never satisfied, seeking contentment in places that are only going to be temporary and ultimately lead to the opposite of what they are wanting. Real lasting peace and contentment can be cultivated no matter the scenario and each scenario paves the way, each thought, reaction leads to the next, conditions the next.

If you want to stop being angry and allowing outside circumstance to dictate your inner space then its just a simple matter of deconditioning those reactions. Anger only feeds anger its a rough circle that just keeps feeding itself if you allow it. People just don't know how to let these things slide off... there's no way I can do anything to show them this, I've tried it only makes them more angry :p The old adage seems true, be the change you want to see... many things in life are contagious. :happyheart:

we've all been fed this world of concepts and terms at different degrees and we've all came to our own understandings... I guess this is one reason why many of my(our) perceptions are erroneous.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/20/13 12:32 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19165109 - 11/20/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
If you want to stop being angry and allowing outside circumstance dictate your inner space then its just a simple matter of deconditioning those reactions. Anger only feeds anger its a rough circle that just keeps feeding itself if you allow it. People just don't know how to let these things slide off... there's no way I can do anything to show them this, I've tried it only makes them more angry :p The old adage seems true, be the change you want to see... many things in life are contagious. :happyheart:





there are a lot of folds in the way you explain the idea of samsara, and I blame that on the many sources you have connected with, but the core of it is that a person's own conditioning (habits) is what obscures clarity and what interferes with en-lightening the loads they have to bear.

all life has a load to bear - really that is not suffering nor samsara it is natural.

all life is subject to unsatisfactoriness - and that is not suffering nor samsara either it is fundamental.

the place where samsara comes in is where the stickiness (a basic property of mind, and learning) operates automatically.

pain and pleasure are unavoidable in certain moments, but carrying pain forward into other moments is suffering - and this is the core of samsara.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19165208 - 11/20/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think your any more correct in saying that then my interpretation. That may have been the more traditional way of viewing samsara though, I'm not sure I've only gleamed a few different sources. I think the religious samsara may have been about escaping this whole shebang.

I think what you said is a big part of it, but I guess it depends on who you ask. In English it literally means conditioned existence(left up to your interpretation) some may call it formations.

"Anything that is "formed" anything that is made of something else, is a formation." "a flower is a formation" "anger is a formation"
-thich nhat hanh describing samskara edit: My bad, Thich was describing Samskara(formations) not Samsara(conditioned existence)

suffering is left to personal interpretation too imo, I agree though it doesn't have to be inherently suffering. That's why the supposed Buddha gave discourses interchanging suffering with nirvana. (Nirvana rather then suffering as one of the three dharma seals-all things are marked by impermanence, nonself, and nirvana}instead of suffering)
"to me it is easier to envision a sate where there are no obstacles created by concepts than to see all things as suffering"-thich nhat hanh

"All phenomena that arise interdependently,
I say that they are empty.
Words come to an end, because their message is false.
Words come to an end, because there is a Middle Way."

-Nagarjuna

"Buddha dharma does not teach that everything is suffering. What Buddhism does say is that life, by its nature, is difficult, flawed, and imperfect."(guess it depends who you talk to, but this is how I view it as well)

Samsara to me is what paints our experience, especially how language builds our experience substantively and for myself much of my life without thinking otherwise or more deeply. The way my mind was developed is not the way it has to be... I wish schools would teach these philosophies I may have been much more cognizant of the conditioning taking place. Instead many were taught more to go punch a pillow until all the anger was released. Just go let it out you'll feel better but in truth I was just strengthening the response.

I see every condition as samsara, every interdependent co-arising. Everything imaginable. I know I'm not the only one :p


Edited by Sse (11/20/13 06:25 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19165475 - 11/20/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

conditioning in psychology is about learning - associative conditioning, or operant conditioning -- it's all the same
the double edged sword or miracle of mind the fact that it is sticky.
it can be conditioned.
a rock not so much.

they way I am writing about it, I am not trying to please all people who have ever thought about it, I am just trying to be very clear about what it is and what it is not, and if you try to make it mean what it does not, you get tangled up in weird logic.

conditioning is about mind, and samsara is also - not about all materials and all processes in the universe just this one thing that can bind and force error.

mara is another great term - closely related, all the bits that have been previously connected which may surface in new arrangements and combinations.

the ancients were developing psychology but did not maintain rigor in their definitions.


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19165663 - 11/20/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I see what your saying but nothing is outside of mind, perception is mind. Anything I could perceive and understand is mind. Birth, Death and the world of; all mind. What you are saying sound spot on though. I guess escaping samsara would be the perception of non-perception. Without an object of knowledge there is no subject.

"To perceive means to perceive something. Perception means the coming into existence of the perceiver and the perceived"

"it is impossible to have a subject without an object. It is impossible to remove one and retain the other."

"Every object of the mind is mind itself."

"Everything in the cosmos is the object of our perception, and as such, it does not exist only outside of us but also within us."

"The object of our mind can be a mountain, a rose, the full moon, or the person standing in front of us. We believe these things exist outside of us as separate entities, but these objects of our perception are us."

"Contemplation on interdependence is a deep looking into all dharmas in order to pierce through to their real nature, in order to see them as part of the great body of reality and in order to see that the great body of reality is indivisible. It cannot be cut into pieces with separate existences of their own."

"Therefore, the contemplation of the interbeing of subject and object is also the contemplation of the mind. Every object of the mind is itself mind."

"Mind consciousness continues to observe phenomena after it has been transformed into wisdom, but it observes them in a different way, because mind consciousness is aware of the interbeing nature of all that it observes- seeing the one in the many, all the manifestations of birth and death, coming and going, and so on-without being caught in ignorance."

-thich nhat hanh




--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/20/13 03:00 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19165872 - 11/20/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:

...
"To perceive means to perceive something. Perception means the coming into existence of the perceiver and the perceived" ....
-thich nhat hanh






thich is a beautiful person and a fantastic meditator.

but he is using words in an Alice In Wonderland way: i.e. to mean what he wants them to mean.

perception is always perception as something - to perceive this as a web page, or to perceive this as a comment by RGV or to perceive this as random text on a screen.

it is not bare sensation, but sensation with some association going on.

an object is perceived as the object because some part of the sensation of it is like an object previously encountered and so already conditioned into the mind.

otherwise it is not so perceived,

the perceiver has a previous involvement that is brought into the moment.
the perception is all of mind, and yes the object exists as an object because of mind...

this is not to say that the object has no existence outside of mind

the mind could make it up (mara)
or the mind could address it from the sensorium (real world object)
both are equivalent.

it may also be experienced and not perceived as an object which is bare attention, or mere sensation.
and that is also mind.


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19165932 - 11/20/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

conditioning is about teaching  which is actually the opposite of learning, learning is to conscious present freedom, while teaching is all to enforce inferiority of else by claiming the absence of their rights to be existing, so teaching them to be something else

the mind is not the brain, the mind is free matter of self fact

meaning to condition the mind by teaching it to react according to certain stimuli..is the evil proof of conditioning means that reverse the relation between freedom(self) and its realization ends(the mind)

by meaning to make the end of what is realized as being the source of what generated it, as if the mind which is never present, could be through conditioning ways the object source of individual beings

like all now is pointing conscious perspectives as being truth existence source..which is an absurd mean to join the edges in reversing the order totally..

the mean is to kill the source.. to possess all what could be known being from positive source and all what could be done from killing the true source

like now, forcing the end of source to be the source of its sources, is to create an absolute negative living universe from being the exact reverse of truth, the only way to get everything without being true


it is to powers wills relation with all evil ways, in forcing the slavery of known values by its own realizations...for the sticky you mean as being closest possible to trap the value to kill..like killing someone from its own body, while in truth it is supposed to belong truly to its constant source(free will)


Edited by absols (11/20/13 03:31 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19166041 - 11/20/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, he's got some really insightful books as well

To be fair I mismatched the context. I jumbled his paragraphs/pages all out of order hehe

I can agree with all of that I think :hehehe:, at least what I'm gleaning from these words.

I think the point is to not be so caught up with our perceptions as if they are separate from us as if they(our conceptions) have an existence of their own... well they may but without our conceptualized self there would be no dividing, that's where seeing interdependence comes in, its all connected, from subject to object and object to subject its all one.(inter-are)

If you have a perceived problem with something outside of you or within you its wise to examine that because neither are problematic inherently, the perceived problem/discontent with a situation comes from self being conditioned in such a way.. instead of a welling of undesirable reactions... everything can be conditioned to be viewed without attachment to a firm view/idea, like separateness(without personal influence; like the dog blaming the dirt clod for smacking it in the face, when the human threw it) or viewed with equanimity(handled wisely)


Edited by Sse (11/20/13 07:01 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19166078 - 11/20/13 03:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

an object is perceived as such from being present self freedom able to recognize existing what is not due to its own reality of being still  while a clear existing objective else mean, another means end

it is incredible how far you insist to turn all existing beings to intelligent creations, knowing the fallacy of it all

it says how all is about evil opportunism of knowledge, like knowledge is always about negative superiority through killing the true one, the way of inventing beings in different ways more living by multiplying the fallacy fact


Edited by absols (11/20/13 04:01 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19166097 - 11/20/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No idea :hehehe: is this another projection?

or maybe your talking to yourself :tongue:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/20/13 03:52 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19166195 - 11/20/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

like your both question is a perfect example of evil ways

both impossible positive answer.. so not true questions, forcing the concept of lie as the exclusive positive source

the concept of darkness as the positive source, which is by definition a clear lie


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19166210 - 11/20/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you know I love you

"everything is empty all things are projections created by the mind"


or maybe your talking to yourself  :wink:

get it? :p


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19166829 - 11/20/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

mi malo

"Anything that is "formed" anything that is made of something else, is a formation." "a flower is a formation" "anger is a formation"
-thich nhat hanh describing samskara edit: My bad, Thich was describing Samskara(formations) not Samsara(conditioned existence)

had to edit that in a previous post

I mistook thich's definition of samskara for samsara :goat:

Don't think he mentions samsara in this book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, at least not in the glossary.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/20/13 06:28 PM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19166931 - 11/20/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Composition and granularity is a good contemplation


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19167088 - 11/20/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

true that :atom: :etjesus::strokebeard2::dopefish:

but as they say "a good thing is not as good as nothing"


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19167941 - 11/20/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Which they says that?


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
    #19168445 - 11/21/13 02:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
you know I love you

"everything is empty all things are projections created by the mind"


or maybe your talking to yourself  :wink:

get it? :p




this is about you ..because you are by reversing truth

when only truth exist, this is how you would be existing so constant being only by subjective inventions as long as it pleases you, accepting that no one else could be around nor anything of whatever you see, just to stay in the mean of getting something from knowledge of truth conception being infinite positive source, so no one while it is only what exist ..then the knowledge to be free existing by reversing it

that is how moron, people are consciously real as being with each others truly positively..whatever you force the meaning that everyone is conditioned for you to sound above people for what you fancy on being through dirty powers as superior state, doesn't matter, the fact is clear, real people are way more free then you 

when only what is true exist, that what justify reality of everything and everyone, not as one of course but definitely as relative positive objective clear relations

and that is the fact, not you

your fact is what all is going to total destruction as not existing, starting by you, got it ? sorry :heart: honey :thumbdown:


Edited by absols (11/21/13 02:27 AM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
    #19168464 - 11/21/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Which they says that?




she assemble any quotes to give something to lies force

they, is she and her kind subjectively thought for herself life, that need constant inventions of lies to mean willing to exist themselves freely, by destroying and fooling everyone and everything rights, in the concept of taking the powers over infinite positive existence forever

by forcing the negative to be the exclusive object else

so the reverse of truth, which keeps going up to protect object else as being positive right


it is really the end..they are getting down from their own ways .. infinitely down till they would be forced to stop to a certain level they cant get lower ..then it would be their existence forever

the interest of truth I think would be in meaning them down the more possible

actually what they meant to send down true positive rights at the beginning when they acted for their free existence by reversing truth knowledge objectively

what they meant clearly on others is gonna be their end

only then, good will come back again, true free wills


Edited by absols (11/21/13 02:29 AM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19168503 - 11/21/13 02:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

She assembled all the notes to begin life's hope.

Hope for all around to be better in her eyes while comforting the true desire for self. They say that reality is what you make of it for it is ones to commander, but that takes will.

If changing surrounding to right in ones eyes one is imposing rights against another one.

In the end no one is right or wrong in any objective sense, only in the sense that they deem to make reality objective. An objective reality leaves no room for humans idealization of what is beyond what is known and not really what could be, for there is too much subjectivity that makes up what is in actuality.

Factually is sarcastically a fallacy in actuality.

The notes are burned and ashes are all that remain of that reality.


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: teknix]
    #19168543 - 11/21/13 03:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

no it is another prepaid argument for lies force beyond objective justifications

everyone is not only seeing everything but knowing very well his being fact.. here you are meaning the same then up, taking advantage from right thinking means considerate to truth rights, to pretend being thinkers yourself by simply reversing the right thinking fact known

it doesn't matter, thinking right is meaning truth rights
so reversing it is what makes those rights to come

like from up, infinite truth is meaning objective rights
so reversing it is what obviously now justify reality to be only the positive existing left

in both cases it shows how there cant be but what is known being, you cant be by reversing being but the worse end

while also it shows that truth is present freedom out of the whole existence fact

it is funny, how you really mean to make an argument just for what you want to fool and destroy others from hides to maintain that everyone sees

when you can easily act on others mind while being another human being, it is clearly the fact of relative relations of any present existing sense or thing, how existence is true so any is objective constant thing reality in free conception of its fact known

you willingly are dismissing that existence was always around about animals only.. which prove how existence was meant from powers reversing facts .. animals are only existing through direct living conditions forces and supernatural powerful wills

humans are in conditions force against themselves rights of living powers against the truth rights, for free existence without being existing, while no possible advantage of free existence when it is the truth but by being the opposite reverse, then free too

so what you see has nothing to do with any factual nature of being..on the contrary, while you are killing the argument that never is present, which also prove the lie

it is only about right and wrong, which for you is regarding the more objective value seen

you don't have any sensi cal relation with right and wrong at all

it is clearly all sources ways before any possible sense

hiding stealing inventing lying imitating playing preparing planning forcing living secret organized moves... all that is nothing to right and wrong fact

wrong is what you are before meaning before any sense of being you too

wrong is the freedom that wherever might go and do will always be wrong, so cannot exist would never exist

right is the freedom that wherever might go and do will always be right to exist, would always exist

truth of infinite is superiority to protect objective rights, so what it knows being right for whenever to move as being

you look at everything and anything and any space, as if it is a concept that when you know makes you feel owning it, so you shout loud to hear yourself everywhere as if there is really no one else, even when there is so many people and things while you are not there at all

truth rights is what while being true superiority so able to realize positive things constantly, will act for nothing respect, as being existing space full of relative free rights that it can sees existing in fact or in concept of freedom value out of nothing fact

true superiority is what act objectively for any least objective value existence fact

and not what wrong are like you in that, as if superiority is in comparison to else so always physically which to you explain objective facts existence means













Edited by absols (11/21/13 03:41 AM)


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19168591 - 11/21/13 03:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

absols said:
no it is another prepaid argument for lies force beyond objective justifications

everyone is not only seeing everything but knowing very well his being fact.. here you are meaning the same then up, taking advantage from right thinking means considerate to truth rights, to pretend being thinkers yourself by simply reversing the right thinking fact known

it doesn't matter, thinking right is meaning truth rights
so reversing it is what makes those rights to come

like from up, infinite truth is meaning objective rights
so reversing it is what obviously now justify reality to be only the positive existing left

in both cases it shows how there cant be but what is known being, you cant be by reversing being but the worse end

while also it shows that truth is present freedom out of the whole existence fact

it is funny, how you really mean to make an argument just for what you want to fool and destroy others from hides to maintain that everyone sees

when you can easily act on others mind while being another human being, it is clearly the fact of relative relations of any present existing sense or thing, how existence is true so any is objective constant thing reality in free conception of its fact known

you willingly are dismissing that existence was always around about animals only.. which prove how existence was meant from powers reversing facts .. animals are only existing through direct living conditions forces and supernatural powerful wills

humans are in conditions force against themselves rights of living powers against the truth rights, for free existence without being existing, while no possible advantage of free existence when it is the truth but by being the opposite reverse, then free too

so what you see has nothing to do with any factual nature of being..on the contrary, while you are killing the argument that never is present, which also prove the lie

it is only about right and wrong, which for you is regarding the more objective value seen

you don't have any sensi cal relation with right and wrong at all

it is clearly all sources ways before any possible sense

hiding stealing inventing lying imitating playing preparing planning forcing living secret organized moves... all that is nothing to right and wrong fact

wrong is what you are before meaning before any sense of being you too

wrong is the freedom that wherever might go and do will always be wrong, so cannot exist would never exist

right is the freedom that wherever might go and do will always be right to exist, would always exist

truth of infinite is superiority to protect objective rights, so what it knows being right for whenever to move as being

you look at everything and anything and any space, as if it is a concept that when you know makes you feel owning it, so you shout loud to hear yourself everywhere as if there is really no one else, even when there is so many people and things while you are not there at all

truth rights is what while being true superiority so able to realize positive things constantly, will act for nothing respect, as being existing space full of relative free rights that it can sees existing in fact or in concept of freedom value out of nothing fact

true superiority is what act objectively for any least objective value existence fact

and not what wrong are like you in that, as if superiority is in comparison to else so always physically which to you explain objective facts existence means






Who determines right thinking if not the thinker?


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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: teknix]
    #19168603 - 11/21/13 04:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

right thinking is not the right beyond all

that is how you can reverse right thinking, while it is still of course only the individual present freedom right to exist whenever he wants always

it has nothing to do with the factual existence

any point is totally free of another, because truth superiority is true so a dimension totally like void free

so right thinking is who points positively absolute superiority rights to its fact superiority, like the freedom which means truth value in concept or fact

existence is only because of superiority rights recognitions, the point that block freedom to act for, so existence cant be but if it is true first, you cant make existence from whatever knowledgeable you could get or powerful

freedom basically cant mean any else positively, even oneself is another to oneself freedom

existence so constant positive consciously being, cannot be but freedom, for what it needs to sustain positive in acting right, to stay the same positive one

and that is why whatever knowledge cant sustain existence to be or even to seem existing

freedoms existence is enemies reality..that is how it was about animals or humans short life in been given to stay positive constant .. and even there it is clear how the base is hypocrisy and the sense is the pleasure of killing everyone else, and ruining others.. this is the only possible existence

forcing conditions to kill freedom like animals possessions would be worse, freedom is not a thing matter that can be killed, even at the individual level
that is how beings from before any meaning to be was the same more clearly..freedom is true so there cant be confusion with something else

so freedom powers by reversing existence rights, would loose its powers and would force to sustain its fact will alone like any other freedom being

the concept of love is from evil.. another lie to sustain freedom powers by suggesting help in evil ways, in fact out of forcing negative existence on all and real inferiority as the matter of all sense
help is suggested for evil existence ways, when powers cant keep giving even worse and lies, cant keep staying even negative source, when also there is nothing left to kill nor anything left positive to reverse
so love is suggested of worse thinking to force any contribution for evil powers..through oneself conscious fact as a negative source to itself..

like what all those means of killing oneself for god .. another very dark lie 







Edited by absols (11/21/13 05:08 AM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
    #19169323 - 11/21/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Which they says that?





actually its quoted as being said from Joshu(Chao-chou; 778-897)

I don't know if anyone else has said it... I don't really take it to literally. I think I view it more as a attachment reminder.

"He who binds to himself a joy
does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise."
-William Blake


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/21/13 10:58 AM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
    #19169392 - 11/21/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

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"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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