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Sse
Saṃsāra

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samsara to me is just conditioned existence plain and simple... nothing more nothing less
habit, physics, biology, all of life is a form of conditioned existence
there is no escape from the interdependent nature of life, even if I were to develop a mind that clings to nothing what so ever, I am still tied to samsara. I guess that's why they say samsara and nirvana are one, enlightenment(however you view this) and conditioned existence are one.
Samsara to me is reality; subjective reality and objective reality.
I don't have any desire to leave/escape samsara just a will to transcend the mental conditioning particularly the ones that take control of your life/experience, conditions that inhibit... I stay away from delving to deep into the mystical or fanciful. I just want a happier life..
I see people everyday crying over spilled milk so to speak and it seems like such a waste of energy... life is so short and it seems nonsensical to allow myself to get caught up in anything that is happening. I can face all with equanimity, I have control over the way I conduct myself and what controls my experience. Its hard for me to see a reason why anyone else couldn't release the grips their conditioning has on their conscious if it could just get through to them and sink in, but your right there isn't much to be done but give compassion and try to brighten or endure with them. Such petty things ruining peoples days/weeks/lives and its mainly to do with perspective/dwelling. complaining, never satisfied, seeking contentment in places that are only going to be temporary and ultimately lead to the opposite of what they are wanting. Real lasting peace and contentment can be cultivated no matter the scenario and each scenario paves the way, each thought, reaction leads to the next, conditions the next.
If you want to stop being angry and allowing outside circumstance to dictate your inner space then its just a simple matter of deconditioning those reactions. Anger only feeds anger its a rough circle that just keeps feeding itself if you allow it. People just don't know how to let these things slide off... there's no way I can do anything to show them this, I've tried it only makes them more angry :p The old adage seems true, be the change you want to see... many things in life are contagious. 
we've all been fed this world of concepts and terms at different degrees and we've all came to our own understandings... I guess this is one reason why many of my(our) perceptions are erroneous.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/20/13 12:32 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19165109 - 11/20/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: If you want to stop being angry and allowing outside circumstance dictate your inner space then its just a simple matter of deconditioning those reactions. Anger only feeds anger its a rough circle that just keeps feeding itself if you allow it. People just don't know how to let these things slide off... there's no way I can do anything to show them this, I've tried it only makes them more angry :p The old adage seems true, be the change you want to see... many things in life are contagious. 
there are a lot of folds in the way you explain the idea of samsara, and I blame that on the many sources you have connected with, but the core of it is that a person's own conditioning (habits) is what obscures clarity and what interferes with en-lightening the loads they have to bear.
all life has a load to bear - really that is not suffering nor samsara it is natural.
all life is subject to unsatisfactoriness - and that is not suffering nor samsara either it is fundamental.
the place where samsara comes in is where the stickiness (a basic property of mind, and learning) operates automatically.
pain and pleasure are unavoidable in certain moments, but carrying pain forward into other moments is suffering - and this is the core of samsara.
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Sse
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I don't think your any more correct in saying that then my interpretation. That may have been the more traditional way of viewing samsara though, I'm not sure I've only gleamed a few different sources. I think the religious samsara may have been about escaping this whole shebang.
I think what you said is a big part of it, but I guess it depends on who you ask. In English it literally means conditioned existence(left up to your interpretation) some may call it formations.
"Anything that is "formed" anything that is made of something else, is a formation." "a flower is a formation" "anger is a formation" -thich nhat hanh describing samskara edit: My bad, Thich was describing Samskara(formations) not Samsara(conditioned existence)
suffering is left to personal interpretation too imo, I agree though it doesn't have to be inherently suffering. That's why the supposed Buddha gave discourses interchanging suffering with nirvana. (Nirvana rather then suffering as one of the three dharma seals-all things are marked by impermanence, nonself, and nirvana}instead of suffering) "to me it is easier to envision a sate where there are no obstacles created by concepts than to see all things as suffering"-thich nhat hanh
"All phenomena that arise interdependently, I say that they are empty. Words come to an end, because their message is false. Words come to an end, because there is a Middle Way." -Nagarjuna
"Buddha dharma does not teach that everything is suffering. What Buddhism does say is that life, by its nature, is difficult, flawed, and imperfect."(guess it depends who you talk to, but this is how I view it as well)
Samsara to me is what paints our experience, especially how language builds our experience substantively and for myself much of my life without thinking otherwise or more deeply. The way my mind was developed is not the way it has to be... I wish schools would teach these philosophies I may have been much more cognizant of the conditioning taking place. Instead many were taught more to go punch a pillow until all the anger was released. Just go let it out you'll feel better but in truth I was just strengthening the response.
I see every condition as samsara, every interdependent co-arising. Everything imaginable. I know I'm not the only one :p
Edited by Sse (11/20/13 06:25 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19165475 - 11/20/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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conditioning in psychology is about learning - associative conditioning, or operant conditioning -- it's all the same the double edged sword or miracle of mind the fact that it is sticky. it can be conditioned. a rock not so much.
they way I am writing about it, I am not trying to please all people who have ever thought about it, I am just trying to be very clear about what it is and what it is not, and if you try to make it mean what it does not, you get tangled up in weird logic.
conditioning is about mind, and samsara is also - not about all materials and all processes in the universe just this one thing that can bind and force error.
mara is another great term - closely related, all the bits that have been previously connected which may surface in new arrangements and combinations.
the ancients were developing psychology but did not maintain rigor in their definitions.
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Sse
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I see what your saying but nothing is outside of mind, perception is mind. Anything I could perceive and understand is mind. Birth, Death and the world of; all mind. What you are saying sound spot on though. I guess escaping samsara would be the perception of non-perception. Without an object of knowledge there is no subject.
"To perceive means to perceive something. Perception means the coming into existence of the perceiver and the perceived"
"it is impossible to have a subject without an object. It is impossible to remove one and retain the other."
"Every object of the mind is mind itself."
"Everything in the cosmos is the object of our perception, and as such, it does not exist only outside of us but also within us."
"The object of our mind can be a mountain, a rose, the full moon, or the person standing in front of us. We believe these things exist outside of us as separate entities, but these objects of our perception are us."
"Contemplation on interdependence is a deep looking into all dharmas in order to pierce through to their real nature, in order to see them as part of the great body of reality and in order to see that the great body of reality is indivisible. It cannot be cut into pieces with separate existences of their own."
"Therefore, the contemplation of the interbeing of subject and object is also the contemplation of the mind. Every object of the mind is itself mind."
"Mind consciousness continues to observe phenomena after it has been transformed into wisdom, but it observes them in a different way, because mind consciousness is aware of the interbeing nature of all that it observes- seeing the one in the many, all the manifestations of birth and death, coming and going, and so on-without being caught in ignorance."
-thich nhat hanh
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/20/13 03:00 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19165872 - 11/20/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said:
... "To perceive means to perceive something. Perception means the coming into existence of the perceiver and the perceived" .... -thich nhat hanh
thich is a beautiful person and a fantastic meditator.
but he is using words in an Alice In Wonderland way: i.e. to mean what he wants them to mean.
perception is always perception as something - to perceive this as a web page, or to perceive this as a comment by RGV or to perceive this as random text on a screen.
it is not bare sensation, but sensation with some association going on.
an object is perceived as the object because some part of the sensation of it is like an object previously encountered and so already conditioned into the mind.
otherwise it is not so perceived,
the perceiver has a previous involvement that is brought into the moment. the perception is all of mind, and yes the object exists as an object because of mind...
this is not to say that the object has no existence outside of mind
the mind could make it up (mara) or the mind could address it from the sensorium (real world object) both are equivalent.
it may also be experienced and not perceived as an object which is bare attention, or mere sensation. and that is also mind.
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absols
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conditioning is about teaching which is actually the opposite of learning, learning is to conscious present freedom, while teaching is all to enforce inferiority of else by claiming the absence of their rights to be existing, so teaching them to be something else
the mind is not the brain, the mind is free matter of self fact
meaning to condition the mind by teaching it to react according to certain stimuli..is the evil proof of conditioning means that reverse the relation between freedom(self) and its realization ends(the mind)
by meaning to make the end of what is realized as being the source of what generated it, as if the mind which is never present, could be through conditioning ways the object source of individual beings
like all now is pointing conscious perspectives as being truth existence source..which is an absurd mean to join the edges in reversing the order totally..
the mean is to kill the source.. to possess all what could be known being from positive source and all what could be done from killing the true source
like now, forcing the end of source to be the source of its sources, is to create an absolute negative living universe from being the exact reverse of truth, the only way to get everything without being true
it is to powers wills relation with all evil ways, in forcing the slavery of known values by its own realizations...for the sticky you mean as being closest possible to trap the value to kill..like killing someone from its own body, while in truth it is supposed to belong truly to its constant source(free will)
Edited by absols (11/20/13 03:31 PM)
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Sse
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I agree, he's got some really insightful books as well
To be fair I mismatched the context. I jumbled his paragraphs/pages all out of order hehe
I can agree with all of that I think , at least what I'm gleaning from these words.
I think the point is to not be so caught up with our perceptions as if they are separate from us as if they(our conceptions) have an existence of their own... well they may but without our conceptualized self there would be no dividing, that's where seeing interdependence comes in, its all connected, from subject to object and object to subject its all one.(inter-are)
If you have a perceived problem with something outside of you or within you its wise to examine that because neither are problematic inherently, the perceived problem/discontent with a situation comes from self being conditioned in such a way.. instead of a welling of undesirable reactions... everything can be conditioned to be viewed without attachment to a firm view/idea, like separateness(without personal influence; like the dog blaming the dirt clod for smacking it in the face, when the human threw it) or viewed with equanimity(handled wisely)
Edited by Sse (11/20/13 07:01 PM)
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absols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19166078 - 11/20/13 03:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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an object is perceived as such from being present self freedom able to recognize existing what is not due to its own reality of being still while a clear existing objective else mean, another means end
it is incredible how far you insist to turn all existing beings to intelligent creations, knowing the fallacy of it all
it says how all is about evil opportunism of knowledge, like knowledge is always about negative superiority through killing the true one, the way of inventing beings in different ways more living by multiplying the fallacy fact
Edited by absols (11/20/13 04:01 PM)
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Sse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19166097 - 11/20/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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No idea is this another projection?
or maybe your talking to yourself
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/20/13 03:52 PM)
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absols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19166195 - 11/20/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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like your both question is a perfect example of evil ways
both impossible positive answer.. so not true questions, forcing the concept of lie as the exclusive positive source
the concept of darkness as the positive source, which is by definition a clear lie
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Sse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19166210 - 11/20/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you know I love you
"everything is empty all things are projections created by the mind"
or maybe your talking to yourself 
get it? :p
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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mi malo
"Anything that is "formed" anything that is made of something else, is a formation." "a flower is a formation" "anger is a formation" -thich nhat hanh describing samskara edit: My bad, Thich was describing Samskara(formations) not Samsara(conditioned existence)
had to edit that in a previous post
I mistook thich's definition of samskara for samsara 
Don't think he mentions samsara in this book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, at least not in the glossary.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/20/13 06:28 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19166931 - 11/20/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Composition and granularity is a good contemplation
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Sse
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true that  
but as they say "a good thing is not as good as nothing"
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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cez

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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19167941 - 11/20/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Which they says that?
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absols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19168445 - 11/21/13 02:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: you know I love you
"everything is empty all things are projections created by the mind"
or maybe your talking to yourself 
get it? :p
this is about you ..because you are by reversing truth
when only truth exist, this is how you would be existing so constant being only by subjective inventions as long as it pleases you, accepting that no one else could be around nor anything of whatever you see, just to stay in the mean of getting something from knowledge of truth conception being infinite positive source, so no one while it is only what exist ..then the knowledge to be free existing by reversing it
that is how moron, people are consciously real as being with each others truly positively..whatever you force the meaning that everyone is conditioned for you to sound above people for what you fancy on being through dirty powers as superior state, doesn't matter, the fact is clear, real people are way more free then you
when only what is true exist, that what justify reality of everything and everyone, not as one of course but definitely as relative positive objective clear relations
and that is the fact, not you
your fact is what all is going to total destruction as not existing, starting by you, got it ? sorry honey
Edited by absols (11/21/13 02:27 AM)
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absols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
#19168464 - 11/21/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: Which they says that?
she assemble any quotes to give something to lies force
they, is she and her kind subjectively thought for herself life, that need constant inventions of lies to mean willing to exist themselves freely, by destroying and fooling everyone and everything rights, in the concept of taking the powers over infinite positive existence forever
by forcing the negative to be the exclusive object else
so the reverse of truth, which keeps going up to protect object else as being positive right
it is really the end..they are getting down from their own ways .. infinitely down till they would be forced to stop to a certain level they cant get lower ..then it would be their existence forever
the interest of truth I think would be in meaning them down the more possible
actually what they meant to send down true positive rights at the beginning when they acted for their free existence by reversing truth knowledge objectively
what they meant clearly on others is gonna be their end
only then, good will come back again, true free wills
Edited by absols (11/21/13 02:29 AM)
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19168503 - 11/21/13 02:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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She assembled all the notes to begin life's hope.
Hope for all around to be better in her eyes while comforting the true desire for self. They say that reality is what you make of it for it is ones to commander, but that takes will.
If changing surrounding to right in ones eyes one is imposing rights against another one.
In the end no one is right or wrong in any objective sense, only in the sense that they deem to make reality objective. An objective reality leaves no room for humans idealization of what is beyond what is known and not really what could be, for there is too much subjectivity that makes up what is in actuality.
Factually is sarcastically a fallacy in actuality.
The notes are burned and ashes are all that remain of that reality.
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absols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: teknix]
#19168543 - 11/21/13 03:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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no it is another prepaid argument for lies force beyond objective justifications
everyone is not only seeing everything but knowing very well his being fact.. here you are meaning the same then up, taking advantage from right thinking means considerate to truth rights, to pretend being thinkers yourself by simply reversing the right thinking fact known
it doesn't matter, thinking right is meaning truth rights so reversing it is what makes those rights to come
like from up, infinite truth is meaning objective rights so reversing it is what obviously now justify reality to be only the positive existing left
in both cases it shows how there cant be but what is known being, you cant be by reversing being but the worse end
while also it shows that truth is present freedom out of the whole existence fact
it is funny, how you really mean to make an argument just for what you want to fool and destroy others from hides to maintain that everyone sees
when you can easily act on others mind while being another human being, it is clearly the fact of relative relations of any present existing sense or thing, how existence is true so any is objective constant thing reality in free conception of its fact known
you willingly are dismissing that existence was always around about animals only.. which prove how existence was meant from powers reversing facts .. animals are only existing through direct living conditions forces and supernatural powerful wills
humans are in conditions force against themselves rights of living powers against the truth rights, for free existence without being existing, while no possible advantage of free existence when it is the truth but by being the opposite reverse, then free too
so what you see has nothing to do with any factual nature of being..on the contrary, while you are killing the argument that never is present, which also prove the lie
it is only about right and wrong, which for you is regarding the more objective value seen
you don't have any sensi cal relation with right and wrong at all
it is clearly all sources ways before any possible sense
hiding stealing inventing lying imitating playing preparing planning forcing living secret organized moves... all that is nothing to right and wrong fact
wrong is what you are before meaning before any sense of being you too
wrong is the freedom that wherever might go and do will always be wrong, so cannot exist would never exist
right is the freedom that wherever might go and do will always be right to exist, would always exist
truth of infinite is superiority to protect objective rights, so what it knows being right for whenever to move as being
you look at everything and anything and any space, as if it is a concept that when you know makes you feel owning it, so you shout loud to hear yourself everywhere as if there is really no one else, even when there is so many people and things while you are not there at all
truth rights is what while being true superiority so able to realize positive things constantly, will act for nothing respect, as being existing space full of relative free rights that it can sees existing in fact or in concept of freedom value out of nothing fact
true superiority is what act objectively for any least objective value existence fact
and not what wrong are like you in that, as if superiority is in comparison to else so always physically which to you explain objective facts existence means
Edited by absols (11/21/13 03:41 AM)
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