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 Rahz
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 Feelings and perception 
#19156877 - 11/18/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can perception exist without feeling? Can feeling exist without perception?
Is there a clear difference between the feelings we experience and the effect on our feelings caused by the perception and intellectualization of them?
IOW, is it possible to experience ones feelings with no bias or is bias a part of experiencing feelings/emotion?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Edited by Rahz (11/18/13 09:27 PM)
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cez
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
#19157295 - 11/18/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think they are the same thing.
Faulty and unclear at times, but the only radar we have (other than knowledge) for navigating through this world.
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teknix
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
#19157696 - 11/18/13 11:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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They can exist without one another, such as a computer can develop perception yet I don't think that would equate to feeling. Perception = observation, so facial recognition is a sort of perception, yet that doesn't equate to the computer feeling as feeling is more subjective than the objective data gained through perception.
How would we ever really know if a machine felt something?
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cez
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: teknix]
#19157847 - 11/19/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think one can make an argument that if a computer can perceive, that means it must feel to some degree.
To perceive is to believe in separation.
You perceive A or B. You feel a certain way about both through perception.
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Rahz
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: cez]
#19158017 - 11/19/13 01:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
To perceive is to believe in separation.
You perceive A or B. You feel a certain way about both through perception.
That's it exactly. The paradox is that less bias seems more sublime yet the mind is prone to bias. In response to a poster characterizing the founding fathers as wise men I once said they were men in high positions who experienced brief moments of lucidity. Whether true or not the sentiment is there that people spend most of their time entrained in biased viewpoints, held in place by a looping feedback of thought and emotion.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
#19158353 - 11/19/13 05:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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sensations are not feelings...
the language fails us
we can say feel this - and you run your fingers over it to get the texture.
you get the sensations.
but you use the word feeling for that.
then use the word for feelings to reference emotions
and use the word to convey feeling pain or pleasure.
only the last makes any sense analytically.
1. feeling is only about pain or pleasure linked to an experience.
2. emotion comes from memories/associations/perceptions that carry pain or pleasure mixed into any experience. i.e. it is a linked association complex.
and
3. sensation is the fresh input issue. prior to any linkage.
sensation leads association (linkage - for which perception is one of the labels)
feeling emerges if there is pain or pleasure in the linked situation.
emotion emerges if perception or association invokes a memory (triggered by sensation linkages) and if there is pain or pleasure in that memory
------that is the basics of associative cognition-------------
however:
sensation can be from any sense including thought or memory itself which is equivalent to sensation in the cerebral cortex.
and since you may have an emotional memory with feelings arise, that in itself becomes a triggering sensation: which may be followed by a perception (i.e. linking to something else)
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Rahz
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Language does have it's difficulties. I never meant to bring up tactile sensation. Just examining the difference between reactionary feelings/emotions and the feelings/emotions that arise when contemplating something.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
#19159534 - 11/19/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Language does have it's difficulties. I never meant to bring up tactile sensation. Just examining the difference between reactionary feelings/emotions and the feelings/emotions that arise when contemplating something.
those are the same thing.
In abhidhamma, there is a great deal of effort to separate prompted and non-prompted mind moments, which can have feelings associated (pain or pleasure).
In my opinion, there is no difference between real prompted or unprompted mental events. (i.e. no unprompted events ever occur)
non-prompted or spontaneous are equivalent,
spontaneous just means the prompt is not apparent.
some prompting is clear, like cause and effect, this causes that.
other prompting may seem to be spontaneous, but is really concertive, i.e. several minor contributing elements act in concert to prompt or drive the response.
the response comes from (associative) mind and is always equivalent in character whether elicited by a clear cause or seeming to have no cause.
(this particular discussion would drives naturally into the issues related to free will - i.e. if you can't really be spontaneous, then can you ever be free?)
=========
separately when I say sensation, meaning sensory input to the cerebral cortex, it includes tactile as well as all other sensations, including imagined ones.
there is not real difference there either: this means that the presence of a physical cause to a sensation (reality's impact) is not significantly different from the recollection of the same sensation as far as mental processes go.
the real world sensation, however, will often be accompanied by a train of consequences, and that is not expected from a recalled sensation.
I don't use sensation to include feeling, and feeling is a binary or polar (pain pleasure) thing, while emotion has a much wider scope of memories that are enriched (or impoverished) with feelings.
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 absols
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feelings are about positive freedom relative sense of others to oneself conscious freedom possible free means about its own free existing identity
perceptions are about objective superiority which is always out of absolute facts knowledge in the existing matter of own self being present fact
objective superiority is the only thing that could be perceived in concept when existence is only about superior different realities presence
but present cannot be sensed of else when oneself being is the present right and when present in the objective sense of reality cannot be more then one
that is why we cant realize else superiority without giving our own
by inventing a superior behavior with objective existence that would be still verified in all aspects of self being true, we would perceive a relative superiority present of else in the reality of own self objective superiority.. then it would be sensed too how the present is different always as it relies on freedom rights in true identifications of freedom truth, that would reveal free superiority of others which must be recognized to stay in the same mean of objective superiority being a fact, which is difficult because others freedom are present sense..
the future sense is to self freedom, but not before getting back to truth freedom and recognize its right existence being always present else, it is only by recognizing truth freedom in objective perspectives that we later get to become more free as out of truth reality, more existing conscious out of all
while we don't get anything in recognizing others free superiority, on the contrary ...
then else and other is always the truth superiority only
so other is never really superior to another not on objective absolute fact, any freedom is only positive mean, while truth freedom is only superior means as it is never anyone like we are individuals freedom, which has its own value but not superiority
then our beings are superior because of being true, which also prove that truth is what exist
the sense of superiority is the only possible way which exist first so last as forever
so actually there is only superiority objectivity because it is the truth identity which is never present as it is always superior to all present facts
then it means how reality is about free superior realizations to truth objectivity, since it would be of truth freedom first
while it also means that the future right is to act in terms of being different to truth, so the actualization of else value before others, so all what freedom is in individual true value so absolutely that is why individually, for objective sense, is another value then superiority
this is why I guess all individuals seem to love to force a certain value of being free means that are not true
and maybe why truth is sponsoring that till now even when they are obviously lying in evil absolute force, so hate freedom actually
I think truth should mean, what at the end, all ones that meant superiority value as being free their identity means, will lose
and all who meant nothing, would still be forced to exist
and all who meant being different then superiority value so in the relative sense out of everything and also everyone, would win something which is like freedom right sponsored to exist as it wants
Edited by absols (11/19/13 04:03 PM)
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Sse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19160402 - 11/19/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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samsara(ignorance) then recognition of objective superiority? Then freedom from conditioned reaction/thought; seen as constant positivity? Then results in loss of conditioned self identity? Freedom, not attached to objective superiority/subjectivity; freedom to come and go as you please? Suffering no longer arising?
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"Springs of water welling from the fire"
"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/19/13 04:17 PM)
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Sse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Rahz]
#19160440 - 11/19/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think its possible to have feelings without personal attachment or bias.
Anger/irritability rises and fades away no effect(can't say no effect but didn't take control) on the moments immediately afterward or during(other then observing/acknowledging), no bias. Happens to me all the time.
Stubbed my toe earlier, at first painful then made aware of what just happened... shined light of awareness on pain. Pain became pleasure. I think I viewed both without bias.
Edited by Sse (11/19/13 09:56 PM)
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absols
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19160624 - 11/19/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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  Quote:
Sse said:
samsara(ignorance) then recognition of objective superiority? Then freedom from conditioned reaction/thought; seen as constant positivity? Then results in loss of conditioned self identity? Freedom, not attached to objective superiority/subjectivity; freedom to come and go as you please? Suffering no longer arising?
interesting post .. samsara what are you selling ??
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Sse
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19160649 - 11/19/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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samsara is selling one way trips through space
price: mental slavery 
destination the corner of being, non-being and no non-being. in the city of no idea and the state of not thinking.
the plane won't land until we put down the map, there won't be any signs anyhow :p
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"Springs of water welling from the fire"
"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/19/13 05:22 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19160810 - 11/19/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Myths about freedom from conditioned mentality are not healthy.
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redgreenvines
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Samsara is belief in those myths instead of working with the material we got
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Sse
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Samsara is conditioned existence, location: interdependent co-arising
freedom from conditioned mentality isn't a myth in my experience, though it can be seen as another form of conditioning, imo it is more like deconditioning. A dissolving of the conditioned response that I am use to
Everything can be viewed from many different angles
Samsara is the material we have to work with... from birth many of us are conditioned, that conditioning often takes control of everything we perceive, it paints our world/experience. Many of our perceptions are erroneous(pretty much all of my perceptions are to some degree). By letting go of conditioned thought/attachment/response/duality we can find freedom, peace, liberation, equanimity. Things that were problems are no longer problematic. Perceived negatives no longer effect negatively.
No longer a slave to conditioned impulse/reaction. My mind isn't as shaped by circumstance, my reactions are no longer as unpredictable. The distinction between then and now is like then being chained to my minds reactions/thoughts and now my life plays on a much less personal note; things that affected me before very deeply now slide right off. It truly is liberation. It really is like developing a mind coated with Teflon. I can't think of anything more freeing then developing a mind that doesn't cling to anything(clings to nothing).
"He who binds to himself a joy
does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise."
-William Blake
"No matter what is going on in your life, and no matter what you are doing, you would do well to regularly look into the mirror of your own mind and examine what is taking place, while checking out your motivation and intentions. Self-reflection and inquiry can help us turn every part of our work into part of our spiritual path, just more grist for the mill"
-Lama Surya Das
Edited by Sse (11/19/13 08:06 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: Sse]
#19163374 - 11/20/13 02:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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you can see an ocean of people in samsara surrounding you.
including you.
they are suffering, and there is usually little to be done except be compassionate.
occasionally they become open to seeing:
and in seeing they are liberated from the binding chains.
even that is a metaphor.
what locks people in are habit, physics, biology, & life.
the last 3 are not samsara, they are just reality.
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absols
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
you can see an ocean of people in samsara surrounding you.
including you.
they are suffering, and there is usually little to be done except be compassionate.
occasionally they become open to seeing:
and in seeing they are liberated from the binding chains.
even that is a metaphor.
what locks people in are habit, physics, biology, & life.
the last 3 are not samsara, they are just reality.
thanks to your replies to samsara... even if it concerns you only, I like to say thanks for what to me it matters a lot, not for anyone needs to, but it always move me as I know how hard is to defend the truth and how it is free giving when no one has the time nor the money for, I mean the fuel...
samsara ... this lady exposed her crap and I have to make an exposition of its liquidation... it cant stay here positive without any rejection to its negative clear fact
the too easy way should not gain more fresh grounds ... since existence is known being absolutely true so freely positive reality, all is about getting powers over that fact, till they reached a way where they can appear constantly more real then reality sources.. pure freedom still presence to be able to kill by facing it from above.. shows the all from the starting point being evil, the program of existence for the same will,
that is surely how those free wills in our existence dimensions are of course stronger, while we the true freedom are tied to forces seeking to weaken us and our rights to the maximum, while cutting any possible relation with free roofs realities, by constant intervention forcing their presence as the real roof, to get rights killed faster
all existence is programmed for powers over truth rights, all is about powers to what could pretend being in a position to force determinations of facts in the name of truth rights... total nonsense of the highest position which is like a huge vague of energetic conscious able to know all from single move.. then determining all according to its will... the power on its knowledge value, to ensure its freedom first too of the base while also willing to ensure that way forever as the new base to its freedom best position for
it seems like, the more you are born on highest levels, the more you are evil, as the more you are totally wrong by meaning the right next to you, choosing to not respect rights objective present existence or to support rights values, to force being instead of it
maybe the fact is what basically freedom is not right, so only freedom rights exist
then the more the freedom is exposed to right sources, the more they are evil of being absolutely always the free will to possess its existence rights, surely from knowing how rights mean to give to truth a lot and loose some of their rights for truth superiority, to keep the roof open for better free realities according to more superior existing standards of truth perfective value, so they know how rights stay still as nothing to reduce their own freedom presence energy needs..
so there is always aside freedom that see that as an opportunity dreaming about getting it all for sure and ensure the ends before acting absolutely for
it says I guess, how one is the enemy of another because freedom is negative first, the easy ways of being individually are first, like how they have no least standard of ethics nor means of being constant, because actually they mean to get the most from the least, the wrong freedom like nothing by doing all
in a way this shows how it is always the truth which is any too
so everyone is conditioned for another power to be over where he is right, there is a lot of knowledge I guess that allows it
like the knowledge that rights must be real to be right, so by forcing individuality isolation and the will to destroy it, rights cant get support as individual positive self freedom source, rights would look wrong as positive object beings against objective truth which existence is only objectively free, so easy to enslave and force to be in more worse conditions..as normal end
I guess the time now for saying such things could mean what they were surprised by the truth always, what Satanism and evil genuine sources of the grounds shown being also more real then all programmed realities sources, how truth kept winning the fields, and also gods are more free then above in the same mean getting then all the powers of that living mean in all the true possible grounds, powers gain enough to create some conditions too so different programs are running .. which also might point the nothing right field being totally destroyed, for what the concept of nothing stopped of being possible to say, the linear genuine sense of any is reversed, so all is really for worse
samsara is one of those voices freedom kind wills, like pointing everything conditioning to condition them more consciously
who really wants to free himself from conditioning would throw everything knowing that it cant talk about, a word is more for it and through, but would act free according to the present free possible existing fresh mean, while speaking about conditioning is meaning to take advantage of that fact by starting to bring it to life as a sense
like willing to suggest others means by making the conditioning way being the exclusive source of existence
pointing what you can never know, yourself determinism, is actually meant to call everyone a sinner or inferior thing in the mean to liberate gods and conditioning forces
but it is more in absolute mean of those kind, to force a reality absent of truth, by inventing the ways to convince others to be useless sources, so anyone would believe being able to liberate himself and live the corruption that he might enjoy to end in being for powers too, at the most inferior level of that too old ladder of free will
do you see why I thank you ?? truth is too far abused so to mean justice it becomes too complicated... I like any sense of others different ways to mean the same end
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redgreenvines
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Re: Feelings and perception [Re: absols]
#19163851 - 11/20/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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a burning person needs to be doused
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absols
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there cannot be a burning person by definition.. a person is whether itself only or out of all individuals condition.. so it proves how you invent to say that exactly like samsara, for what you are surely competing in same business of that time
you should start to get more offensive, when you clearly show what you mean to burn people by forcing the image of fallacies, truth is after you.. you want to mean being in different situation than others, as if you could belong to some powers that can save you from the truth
it is the only true sense of being all one, only one superiority as a conception of the whole as present like..
but when all are of lies, then freedom are forced to constant minus end..while objective is supported to recognize truth being the only fact
the fact that you think being to lies, so to constant change nature..is going to show being more the opposite everyday
when bad do the worse, you believe it is the way to mean it true, for good possessions..when it is the opposite
when bad do the worse it means it is the end
you cant play with any superiority over yourself.. so when you mean to get over the truth.. it is actually the most radical end from ever becoming the only present truth
and put your needs to glorify such inferiority as a hell of a god to yourself end alone..there is no god nor hell..there is only the truth of existence, being by killing negative inferiority
positive truth is out of negative absence being to superiority reasons
it is all to same truth actualized living fact..
Edited by absols (11/20/13 12:14 PM)
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