Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156328 - 11/18/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't care about YOUR views...largely because they are an irrelevant foray into "societal cost" bullshit.  I do care about the question of whether or not suicide clinics should exist, and the argument that such clinics would serve to reduce the societal cost of suicide is absurd.  Whatever the societal cost of suicide, it is peanuts compared to the cost of even a single wrongly "suicided" person.

My argument is that suicide clinics can and will inevitably lead to some people being killed without giving informed consent.  If I'm correct, it doesn't matter how much cost to society was saved by the clinic because the savings are offset by the dire cost of a mistake. 

That's why your societal cost argument isn't a counterpoint at all.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebilly jowl
blah
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 1,496
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156333 - 11/18/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:

morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.



Nope...try again.  If the patient can communicate and is competent to give consent to suicide, then he is competent to order his doctors to stop treating and feeding him.  Problem solved.




well youare right you can not survive without food. The question is how can we be so inhumane in instances such as these. I see youcare  very much for dogs.
We never would do such a thing to a dog under veternarian care. Seems hypocritical to hold such a view. You dont hold the same view concerning dogs do you?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19156359 - 11/18/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The difference between dogs and humans is one of competence, though.  Dogs are not capable of reasoning their way through such things, so humans have to make decisions for the dog in the dog's best interest.  Hopefully, we make the right call most of the time.

A human can always choose to die....if he can choose anything.  I would never take that choice away from someone, which is why I am against suicide clinics.  When they work properly, they will help people do what they could have done by themselves with a bit less pain.  When things go wrong, however, someone dies who didn't really want to die or didn't really understand what they were doing.

If even one of these errors occurs, that makes the entire endeavor a net loss for all of us.  Can you guarantee that you can come up with a system that no one will ever manipulate for the purpose of killing someone without their consent?  If so, I'd love to see the plan.  If not, I'd rather just leave the choice and the responsibility to the individual.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156370 - 11/18/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:

morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.



Nope...try again.  If the patient can communicate and is competent to give consent to suicide, then he is competent to order his doctors to stop treating and feeding him.  Problem solved.




That's cold bro, why do we use opiates to alleviate pain then? Just suffer through that shit.

Also, people do die painlessly, shouldn't we all have this right?


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156381 - 11/18/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
Also, people do die painlessly, shouldn't we all have this right?



You chose your name well...you are a dreamer...

We don't all have the OPTION of dying painlessly...so we certainly don't have the right.  Death comes to most of us at a time and in a manner not of our choosing.  To say we have the right to control that is nonsensical when reality clearly dictates otherwise.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJack yo Self foo
The Artful Dodger
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 3,096
Loc: Where the red fern grows....
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156408 - 11/18/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jacksonian said:
My mom recently successfully commited suicide...

she was going for treatment, and it wasn't working...we found a diary and it turns out she had been suffering for over 30 years with it...

while we were in the hospital watching the machines keep her alive i could tell she was gone

we came home to rest and talk about things and my sister asked me what I wanted because they had all these fantastical ideas on how to 'bring her out of the state she was in' and save her

I said that I just wanted her to be happy and then the fucking phone rang SO loud...it was the hospital telling us to come back...

long story short she left us...that being said if someone wants to be dead who are we to tell them that they should stay...help should be offered and whatnot, but if it is all falling on deaf ears there is just no talking to them

been going to a group monthly dealing with loss and it is all eerily similar...we never saw it coming or we talked and pleaded with them but...

they are often caught in a moment of weakness and if they have the devices they will be successful...i could talk forever on the subject i bet..





Sorry for your loss. For the sake of furthering the discussion in this thread. Could you comment on the help your mother received before committing suicide?

I strongly believe that social stigma is the reason many people suffer without receiving due to the perceived notion that suicidal thoughts are seen as "weak".

Also, do you believe that your mother could have been helped if help was provided to her much much earlier? Apologies if you care not to answer.

I think however, your mother's situation is illustration to the fact that people who are suicidal have felt so for some time, and the feeling is quite entrenched. And that suicide isn't a random unplanned move.





who is to say that she would have been better with help...

my sister had just gotten married and i had my son which was her first grandchild...

it was nuts...she had been gong to different docs and got ahold of ALOT of meds...toook them all

the stigma of sucicide is more prevelant with those that survive it i think...my family for example

she chose suicide so the social stigma of suicide was not even present in her mind i believe


--------------------
You learn something new everyday, so be sure you learn something from it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJack yo Self foo
The Artful Dodger
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 3,096
Loc: Where the red fern grows....
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156475 - 11/18/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:


We don't all have the OPTION of dying painlessly...so we certainly don't have the right.  Death comes to most of us at a time and in a manner not of our choosing.  To say we have the right to control that is nonsensical when reality clearly dictates otherwise.




its not a question of whether we have the right more than it is a question of is it right

been trying to see your side and i just don't


--------------------
You learn something new everyday, so be sure you learn something from it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebilly jowl
blah
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 1,496
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156485 - 11/18/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I dont believe there should be "suicide clinics" who in  there right mind would? I do believe there shouldnt be a across the board ban on assisted suicide though. There could be systems, protocol and very specific criteria to follow in assisting suicide. It's a complex issue, but with proper guidlines in place it can be done without haveing suicide clinics in every strip mall. I think it's barbaric for needless suffering in some instances. With proper regulations. It can and should be legal, and in the future it more than likely will.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJack yo Self foo
The Artful Dodger
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 3,096
Loc: Where the red fern grows....
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Jack yo Self foo]
    #19156489 - 11/18/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

suicide is all around us...you have people who choose to take people with them even

i think these are very different situations though..there is something much deeper at the root of those types of suicide

to say that one who does this act is thinking they are weak is oobvious..they feel they are not good enough or that they can't cope with life as they have come to know it

should they have the right to say enough is enough????? well......after a certain period of time and enough intervention...yes i think so

like i said before there is just no getting through to some people


--------------------
You learn something new everyday, so be sure you learn something from it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJack yo Self foo
The Artful Dodger
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 3,096
Loc: Where the red fern grows....
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Jack yo Self foo]
    #19156501 - 11/18/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i'll take that one further....what if these suicidal types that take people with them had the option to go to a 'death house' and end thier pain or anguish...

would that keep them from lashing out in the manner that some o fthese people do? or is this thier way of trying expose something deeper?


--------------------
You learn something new everyday, so be sure you learn something from it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19156502 - 11/18/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJack yo Self foo
The Artful Dodger
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 3,096
Loc: Where the red fern grows....
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156518 - 11/18/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.




agreed..there have to be checks and balances

but this type of action will never even be put to paper...never


--------------------
You learn something new everyday, so be sure you learn something from it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156537 - 11/18/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
Also, people do die painlessly, shouldn't we all have this right?



You chose your name well...you are a dreamer...

We don't all have the OPTION of dying painlessly...so we certainly don't have the right.  Death comes to most of us at a time and in a manner not of our choosing.  To say we have the right to control that is nonsensical when reality clearly dictates otherwise.




I never said we had the option to, but that people do, and that shouldn't we have the same opportunity? Do you believe in "pulling the plug" on people? My grandmother had a stroke a while back and couldn't communicate, it was clear that enough of her brain was damaged that she wasn't there anymore; your view is that we should've left my grandmother to starve to death? (I'm not exactly sure how she died but it definitely wasn't a "natural" death.).

Do you know what an advanced directive is?


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156550 - 11/18/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Of course I do.  Killing someone and letting them die aren't even close to the same thing.

Again, we don't have a choice how/when we die.  We don't have a choice of whether or not it will be painful.  Claiming to have a right to not have a painful death is like claiming to have a right not to ever be sad.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebilly jowl
blah
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 1,496
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156557 - 11/18/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.




finally :nodofunderstanding:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156558 - 11/18/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Um... I'm pretty sure someone "killed" my grandmother.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156560 - 11/18/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

She had a stroke, dude...


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156570 - 11/18/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly, but she was still alive. We weren't going to let her starve to death, therefore assisted suicide. I thought you were against assisted suicide.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,967
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156576 - 11/18/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Removing life support isn't assisted suicide.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Male User Gallery
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 4,132
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156586 - 11/18/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

She wasn't on life support... She could breath on her own and everything, not eat though, obviously. She even stayed at her own home, in her own bed.


--------------------
Everybody's a ninja...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mystery of canine ?suicides? at eerie bridge RandalFlagg 965 1 03/07/05 07:24 PM
by usefulidiot
* easiest method of suicide?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Razman 10,230 70 02/24/05 03:38 PM
by Woland
* suicide KristiMidocean 852 12 02/26/05 02:41 AM
by Help on the Way
* War on Drugs. War on Humanity. MXNR 1,295 5 08/23/04 12:40 AM
by SmokeyMcpot
* "Thompson probably planned suicide"
( 1 2 all )
Vvellum 2,895 21 02/23/05 08:06 PM
by Learyfan
* If you chose suicide...
( 1 2 all )
Adden 4,730 35 04/03/05 01:35 PM
by Locus
* Canada suicide hotline to open only from 9 to 5 RandalFlagg 1,023 7 05/27/05 09:41 AM
by In(di)go
* My Exclusive comparison of french culture and american culture
( 1 2 3 all )
exclusive58 6,733 52 02/24/05 05:14 AM
by Krishna

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
4,206 topic views. 4 members, 37 guests and 40 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.024 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.