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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19155890 - 11/18/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

billy jowl said:

Stephen Hawking was used as an example earlier, so i'll use him as an example.
1.His disease has progressed to where he can only use one cheek muscle which he communicates through.

2.Assisted suicide would be his only option, unless you know some creative way to off yourself using your left cheek.

There is no doubt it will progress further. Ifhe  wishes to commits suicide which he has stated could be an option. He WILL need assistance.

I can post the link if that would satisfy you.



Steven Hawking could off himself without assistance.  He could simply stop eating and drinking.  He could fire those who help him with those activities.  Problem solved.

I still don't see a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide, AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155954 - 11/18/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I hate to bring it up, since it is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but as being a self proclaimed defence attorney, and having started a legal advice thread, you show basic, at best, ability to understand and counter opinions contradicting your own.



I see it quite differently.  I see you as having very limited ability to understand my position and properly focus any point so as to make it a valid counterpoint to my argument.  There are a lot of people in this thread and on this site who are simply unable to engage in logical debate at a competent level.  I generally ignore such people's posts since there's little hope of either of us actually getting anything meaningful out of a discussion.

I suspect you are one of those people.




Okay, if such were true, and you ignored my post because it was incompetent, you should then at least have a basic understanding of my views, otherwise how are you to know they are incompetent and unworthy of a reply?

After all, how can you claim a viewpoint has no logical reasoning unless you understand it?

Therefor, you should be able to state my views, as proof of your comprehension of my views.

So far, you have done nothing except respond to the most basic of counters to your views, and have failed to respond to any in depth counter points to your own argument.

So please, elaborate on your opinion of my views, which you have yet to do.

Also, you are the party that has yet to show any understanding of opposing views, why should I, or any other member lend any credence to your views, when you have yet to show comprehension of the views of others?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156002 - 11/18/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So far, you have done nothing except respond to the most basic of counters to your views, and have failed to respond to any in depth counter points to your own argument.


Because there haven't been any.
Quote:



So please, elaborate on your opinion of my views, which you have yet to do.




I pretty much disagree with your social benefit argument.  It's completely irrelevant to my position, of course, so I didn't address it above.  Since you asked my opinion of it, however, I'll give it:

Social benefit is not a reason to create a right...particularly a "human right."  The reason for this should be self-evident, but if it isn't, I'll help you figure it out. 

If benefit to society justifies defining a right, then detriment to society justifies negating a right.  The point of human rights is to make sure that society recognizes individual rights that people have regardless of how society might be affected by those rights.  Otherwise, human rights are nothing more than those things that society has deemed to be beneficial.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156034 - 11/18/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So far, you have done nothing except respond to the most basic of counters to your views, and have failed to respond to any in depth counter points to your own argument.


Because there haven't been any.
Quote:



So please, elaborate on your opinion of my views, which you have yet to do.




I pretty much disagree with your social benefit argument.  It's completely irrelevant to my position, of course, so I didn't address it above.  Since you asked my opinion of it, however, I'll give it:

Social benefit is not a reason to create a right...particularly a "human right."  The reason for this should be self-evident, but if it isn't, I'll help you figure it out. 

If benefit to society justifies defining a right, then detriment to society justifies negating a right.  The point of human rights is to make sure that society recognizes individual rights that people have regardless of how society might be affected by those rights.  Otherwise, human rights are nothing more than those things that society has deemed to be beneficial.





Since your argument eludes to inherent human rights, suicide not being one of them, please elaborate on inherent human rights. And why they are inherent over the right to die.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156054 - 11/18/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Also, stating that you disagree with an opinion, without actually clarifying why is not appropriate to the level of debate expected of a lawyer. Or anyone expecting to be taken seriously to be more concise.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156079 - 11/18/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, stating that you disagree with an opinion, without actually clarifying why is not appropriate to the level of debate expected of a lawyer. Or anyone expecting to be taken seriously to be more concise.



Nuh-uh


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19156088 - 11/18/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Enlil ive got a question for you.

Who do you think is sovereign over my life?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156107 - 11/18/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Stop using strawman arguments.  I didn't make this thread about human rights, the OP did, and I never said that suicide isn't/shouldn't be a human right.  On the contrary, I have clearly said that since suicide is an option for everyone, it is a human right regardless of how the law or society chooses to treat it.

I said that dying without pain isn't a human right.  I also said that having someone help you die without pain shouldn't be one.  Having someone help you with ANYTHING shouldn't be a human right.  If it were, then others would not have the right to refuse to help.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156120 - 11/18/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, stating that you disagree with an opinion, without actually clarifying why is not appropriate to the level of debate expected of a lawyer. Or anyone expecting to be taken seriously to be more concise.



Your reading comprehension sucks, dude...I told you why I disagree with your nonsense argument:

Quote:

Enlil said:

If benefit to society justifies defining a right, then detriment to society justifies negating a right.  The point of human rights is to make sure that society recognizes individual rights that people have regardless of how society might be affected by those rights.  Otherwise, human rights are nothing more than those things that society has deemed to be beneficial.




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19156126 - 11/18/13 06:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NWlight said:


Who do you think is sovereign over my life?



You are.  You can end it at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all.


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InvisibleJack yo Self foo
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156144 - 11/18/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

My mom recently successfully commited suicide...

she was going for treatment, and it wasn't working...we found a diary and it turns out she had been suffering for over 30 years with it...

while we were in the hospital watching the machines keep her alive i could tell she was gone

we came home to rest and talk about things and my sister asked me what I wanted because they had all these fantastical ideas on how to 'bring her out of the state she was in' and save her

I said that I just wanted her to be happy and then the fucking phone rang SO loud...it was the hospital telling us to come back...

long story short she left us...that being said if someone wants to be dead who are we to tell them that they should stay...help should be offered and whatnot, but if it is all falling on deaf ears there is just no talking to them

been going to a group monthly dealing with loss and it is all eerily similar...we never saw it coming or we talked and pleaded with them but...

they are often caught in a moment of weakness and if they have the devices they will be successful...i could talk forever on the subject i bet..


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156166 - 11/18/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You have yet to refute opposing arguments. Still waiting. My level of interest in this thread is waning due to you failing to make any valid arguments in which you can actually defend.

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide. :popcorn:


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156189 - 11/18/13 06:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

NWlight said:


Who do you think is sovereign over my life?



You are.  You can end it at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all.



I'm getting the impression that people are mis-interpreting your arguments then.

I don't see what the big deal is.  How are people saying that you have a right to assisted suicide :lol:

Follow up question though, do you think assisted suicide should be legal?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156196 - 11/18/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't care about the societal cost of suicide, and I never made any arguments about it.  What the fuck are you even talking about?


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Jack yo Self foo]
    #19156201 - 11/18/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You have yet to refute opposing arguments. Still waiting. My level of interest in this thread is waning due to you failing to make any valid arguments in which you can actually defend.

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide. :popcorn:
Quote:

jacksonian said:
My mom recently successfully commited suicide...

she was going for treatment, and it wasn't working...we found a diary and it turns out she had been suffering for over 30 years with it...

while we were in the hospital watching the machines keep her alive i could tell she was gone

we came home to rest and talk about things and my sister asked me what I wanted because they had all these fantastical ideas on how to 'bring her out of the state she was in' and save her

I said that I just wanted her to be happy and then the fucking phone rang SO loud...it was the hospital telling us to come back...

long story short she left us...that being said if someone wants to be dead who are we to tell them that they should stay...help should be offered and whatnot, but if it is all falling on deaf ears there is just no talking to them

been going to a group monthly dealing with loss and it is all eerily similar...we never saw it coming or we talked and pleaded with them but...

they are often caught in a moment of weakness and if they have the devices they will be successful...i could talk forever on the subject i bet..





Sorry for your loss. For the sake of furthering the discussion in this thread. Could you comment on the help your mother received before committing suicide?

I strongly believe that social stigma is the reason many people suffer without receiving due to the perceived notion that suicidal thoughts are seen as "weak".

Also, do you believe that your mother could have been helped if help was provided to her much much earlier? Apologies if you care not to answer.

I think however, your mother's situation is illustration to the fact that people who are suicidal have felt so for some time, and the feeling is quite entrenched. And that suicide isn't a random unplanned move.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19156214 - 11/18/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NWlight said:

I don't see what the big deal is.  How are people saying that you have a right to assisted suicide :lol:

Follow up question though, do you think assisted suicide should be legal?



No, and for the reason I stated before.  Whatever system is put in place to make sure that the person gives informed consent will be imperfect.  It will be susceptible to human manipulation and exploitation.  Ultimately, some people will not be able to get assistance despite giving informed consent, and others will be killed without giving informed consent.


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Invisiblebilly jowl
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156224 - 11/18/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:

Stephen Hawking was used as an example earlier, so i'll use him as an example.
1.His disease has progressed to where he can only use one cheek muscle which he communicates through.

2.Assisted suicide would be his only option, unless you know some creative way to off yourself using your left cheek.

There is no doubt it will progress further. Ifhe  wishes to commits suicide which he has stated could be an option. He WILL need assistance.

I can post the link if that would satisfy you.



Steven Hawking could off himself without assistance.  He could simply stop eating and drinking.  He could fire those who help him with those activities.  Problem solved.

I still don't see a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide, AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.




morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156226 - 11/18/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide.




Keep repeating yourself dude...maybe you'll get different answer the second or third time.  I've no opinion about societal cost of suicide.  I couldn't care less about it.  Whatever the cost is, it is.  People are going to kill themselves regardless of those costs.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19156238 - 11/18/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

billy jowl said:

morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.



Nope...try again.  If the patient can communicate and is competent to give consent to suicide, then he is competent to order his doctors to stop treating and feeding him.  Problem solved.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156285 - 11/18/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide.




Keep repeating yourself dude...maybe you'll get different answer the second or third time.  I've no opinion about societal cost of suicide.  I couldn't care less about it.  Whatever the cost is, it is.  People are going to kill themselves regardless of those costs.





Quit wasting bandwidth and refute arguments or just shut up already.

Your views have already be summarized as an inability on your part to defend against opposing views with your stance of "i dont care."

If you don't care about the views and opinions related to the thread, then why are you posting at all?


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