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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Registered: 04/27/11
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19155506 - 11/18/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I do believe that terminally ill patients should be allowed to choose assisted suicide.  It is selfish to make someone suffer day in and day out when there is a solution to the pain.

However, if a suicide clinic were to exist, it would not necessarily be to the betterment of society.

I know several people who have tried to kill themselves, and a few who have succeeded.  The ones who have survived are all happy to be alive.  If a suicide clinic existed at the time, they might not be alive at all. 

While they may not be doctors or firefighters, they still bring joy and love
into the lives of those around them.  To remove that would be to the detriment of society.

I feel there would have to be VERY strict controls/monitors in place, and even still it would be ethically questionable.  Independent background checks of some sort to weed out individuals in the midst of an emotional unraveling making a rash decision.  Some sort of "must inform your loved ones first" clause or something.  Imagine how many people would go there in the middle of a divorce or bankruptcy? 

I feel people should be allowed to commit suicide, but I don't like it.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
Loc: South Africa
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155518 - 11/18/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a different issue, though. 

Such a patient also can't give consent for an assisted suicide.





Since when does physical incapacitation equal mental incapacity?

Also, I find it amusing that you stand as an opponent to this idea, yet fail to address the strongest points against your ideas.

Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer or something? If your tactics in court are anything like your tactics in this thread, I can't see you as being a very successful defense lawyer.

Is ignoring counter arguments a successful tactic in court?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #19155520 - 11/18/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That really is my problem with the suicide clinic idea.  Whatever controls are in place, there will be people who bypass them or exploit them for personal gain.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 1
    #19155529 - 11/18/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I find it amusing that you stand as an opponent to this idea, yet fail to address the strongest points against your ideas.




I haven't seen any counterpoints at all...strong or otherwise.  Please restate one or more so that I know what you're talking about.


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Invisiblebilly jowl
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155555 - 11/18/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would not completely discount communication, for example technology has came along to make communication possible. stephen hawking communicates through a computer. If he wished to end his life he might very well need assistance, unless he rode his roscoe scooter off the grand canyon, you could argue that, iguess. but with ever increasing technology completely incompacitated will be able to communicate, and im sure there are already cases of this. Again there are instances where assistance would be the only option.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155565 - 11/18/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I find it amusing that you stand as an opponent to this idea, yet fail to address the strongest points against your ideas.






How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 3
    #19155582 - 11/18/13 05:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If suicide is illegal, then the government is explicitly stating your mind and body do not belong to you.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 1
    #19155609 - 11/18/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.



Then don't piss and moan if I didn't respond to some point that you thought was genius.  Most likely I read it and thought it didn't address my position at all.  I'm pretty confident that you haven't the first clue what my position is on any of it.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155676 - 11/18/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.



Then don't piss and moan if I didn't respond to some point that you thought was genius.  Most likely I read it and thought it didn't address my position at all.  I'm pretty confident that you haven't the first clue what my position is on any of it.





If you are unaware of my position then you have either, not read the thread, lack reading comprehension to understand the thread, lack the short term memory necessary to participate productively in the thread, or simply choose to avoid opposing arguments as you are not able to form a respectable coherent rebuttal.


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Invisiblebilly jowl
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Registered: 12/11/12
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155686 - 11/18/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.



Then don't piss and moan if I didn't respond to some point that you thought was genius.  Most likely I read it and thought it didn't address my position at all.  I'm pretty confident that you haven't the first clue what my position is on any of it.




How can you say people dont have a clue on your position, when you have clearly made a position of assistance is never necessary. I think a case has showed you are clearly wrong, at least on this position.

CASE DISMISSED :thisfuckinguy:


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Edited by billy jowl (11/18/13 05:40 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155696 - 11/18/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know who you are or care what your position is.  You claim I ignored a counterpoint.  Such a counterpoint can only exist if it counters MY POSITION.  Your position is irrelevant to that particular claim.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19155712 - 11/18/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

billy jowl said:


How can you say people dont have a clue on your position, when you have clearly made a position of assistance is never necessary. I think a case has showed you are clearly wrong, at least on this position.



My position is that assistance shouldn't be a right...not that it is never necessary.

Of course, it is never necessary since death will come to us all regardless of our current status...but that's not a point I've been making here.

I still have yet to see anyone present a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155717 - 11/18/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know who you are or care what your position is.  You claim I ignored a counterpoint.  Such a counterpoint can only exist if it counters MY POSITION.  Your position is irrelevant to that particular claim.





If you had read the thread, you would understand the participants in the thread's positions. Unless you fall under the scenarios I described above.

Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155723 - 11/18/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?



I'm claiming that your position is irrelevant to the veracity and accuracy of your claim that I ignore valid counterpoints.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155749 - 11/18/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?



I'm claiming that your position is irrelevant to the veracity and accuracy of your claim that I ignore valid counterpoints.



Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?



I'm claiming that your position is irrelevant to the veracity and accuracy of your claim that I ignore valid counterpoints.





If that is so, you would be able to at least be able to show you have an understanding of the counterpoints. Otherwise you would be blindly ignoring points that counter your own.

You have yet been able to demonstrate you have even a basic understanding of points refuting your stance.

How can one be taken seriously if they cannot exhibit the basic understanding of their opponents views?


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155756 - 11/18/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Also, I hate to bring it up, since it is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but as being a self proclaimed defence attorney, and having started a legal advice thread, you show basic, at best, ability to understand and counter opinions contradicting your own.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155819 - 11/18/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I hate to bring it up, since it is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but as being a self proclaimed defence attorney, and having started a legal advice thread, you show basic, at best, ability to understand and counter opinions contradicting your own.



I see it quite differently.  I see you as having very limited ability to understand my position and properly focus any point so as to make it a valid counterpoint to my argument.  There are a lot of people in this thread and on this site who are simply unable to engage in logical debate at a competent level.  I generally ignore such people's posts since there's little hope of either of us actually getting anything meaningful out of a discussion.

I suspect you are one of those people.


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Offlinedontknow
It's all in the reflex


Registered: 07/05/13
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155825 - 11/18/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Is that why you never talk to me :feelsbadman:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19155846 - 11/18/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No.  I don't talk to you because you dontknow.  If you dontknow, what am I going to get out of talking to you?


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Invisiblebilly jowl
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155864 - 11/18/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:


How can you say people dont have a clue on your position, when you have clearly made a position of assistance is never necessary. I think a case has showed you are clearly wrong, at least on this position.



My position is that assistance shouldn't be a right...not that it is never necessary.

Of course, it is never necessary since death will come to us all regardless of our current status...but that's not a point I've been making here.

I still have yet to see anyone present a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.




Stephen Hawking was used as an example earlier, so i'll use him as an example.
1.His disease has progressed to where he can only use one cheek muscle which he communicates through.

2.Assisted suicide would be his only option, unless you know some creative way to off yourself using your left cheek.

There is no doubt it will progress further. Ifhe  wishes to commits suicide which he has stated could be an option. He WILL need assistance.

I can post the link if that would satisfy you.


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