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Offlinesilverstem
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Re: while i wait... [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19157649 - 11/18/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
Again, the reason we simmer is to get the grains super hot,
and then allow them to dry in open air, virtually steaming
themselves dry...




Rice won't hydrate if you don't bring it to a boil. Neither will rye and with rye we boil hard for a whole ten minutes.

Grains will dry without heat.  We simmer to hydrate.  Different grains require different amounts of simmering.  Bird Seed doesn't take very long to simmer to hydrate.  Rye takes a lot of boiling. Rice takes a medium amount of boiling.

If we didn't need to 'cook' the grains to hydrate them then no company would ever sell rice cookers.  Grains can only absorb so much without boiling.  You'll never get fully hydrated rice with room temperature water no matter how long you leave it in the water.



we soak for 12-24 hours to hydrate.. RR said it himself "i like to boil for ten min to allow the excess moister to steam off the grains"
http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Grain-Preparation


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: while i wait... [Re: silverstem]
    #19157750 - 11/19/13 12:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silverstem said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
Again, the reason we simmer is to get the grains super hot,
and then allow them to dry in open air, virtually steaming
themselves dry...




Rice won't hydrate if you don't bring it to a boil. Neither will rye and with rye we boil hard for a whole ten minutes.

Grains will dry without heat.  We simmer to hydrate.  Different grains require different amounts of simmering.  Bird Seed doesn't take very long to simmer to hydrate.  Rye takes a lot of boiling. Rice takes a medium amount of boiling.

If we didn't need to 'cook' the grains to hydrate them then no company would ever sell rice cookers.  Grains can only absorb so much without boiling.  You'll never get fully hydrated rice with room temperature water no matter how long you leave it in the water.



we soak for 12-24 hours to hydrate.. RR said it himself "i like to boil for ten min to allow the excess moister to steam off the grains"
http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Grain-Preparation




In the video he also says they soak to 'HELP' hydrate the grains. He never says the soak does all the hydrating.  The grains cannot get all the hydration they need simply from soaking.  The reason we soak is to germinate endospores and to give the grains a 'priming' hydration to keep them from bursting.

When you simmer a grain, it hydrates it more than it would by just soaking it.

When I was an apprentice I had to make rice 5 times a day for 18 months.  I wasn't allowed to even touch a knife before I could cook 'perfect rice.'  We also soak rice before we cook it to minimize the bursting of grains.  Water content is controlled precisely from beginning to end.  I have cooked so many batches of grain to 'perfection' it would blow your mind. 

Simmering hydrates the grains. Period.  If it didn't then there would be no risk of bursting the germ. If simmering didn't hydrate the grains germs would burst without boiling, just by soaking them.

RR doesn't have to say the simmer is for hydration because it would take a complete idiot to not realize that simmering any kind of grain hydrates it.

If all the simmer is supposed to do it get them hot for evaporation, then why does he boil them for 10 whole minutes?  The water temperature can't rise above boiling.  So why wouldn't he just dump them as soon as a full boil was reached? Surely he doesn't need to maintain that heat for 10 whole minutes JUST to make them steamy.


--------------------
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Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
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"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

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Offlinesilverstem
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Re: while i wait... [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19157794 - 11/19/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

silverstem said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
Again, the reason we simmer is to get the grains super hot,
and then allow them to dry in open air, virtually steaming
themselves dry...




Rice won't hydrate if you don't bring it to a boil. Neither will rye and with rye we boil hard for a whole ten minutes.

Grains will dry without heat.  We simmer to hydrate.  Different grains require different amounts of simmering.  Bird Seed doesn't take very long to simmer to hydrate.  Rye takes a lot of boiling. Rice takes a medium amount of boiling.

If we didn't need to 'cook' the grains to hydrate them then no company would ever sell rice cookers.  Grains can only absorb so much without boiling.  You'll never get fully hydrated rice with room temperature water no matter how long you leave it in the water.



we soak for 12-24 hours to hydrate.. RR said it himself "i like to boil for ten min to allow the excess moister to steam off the grains"
http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Grain-Preparation




In the video he also says they soak to 'HELP' hydrate the grains. He never says the soak does all the hydrating.  The grains cannot get all the hydration they need simply from soaking.  The reason we soak is to germinate endospores and to give the grains a 'priming' hydration to keep them from bursting.

When you simmer a grain, it hydrates it more than it would by just soaking it.

When I was an apprentice I had to make rice 5 times a day for 18 months.  I wasn't allowed to even touch a knife before I could cook 'perfect rice.'  We also soak rice before we cook it to minimize the bursting of grains.  Water content is controlled precisely from beginning to end.  I have cooked so many batches of grain to 'perfection' it would blow your mind. 

Simmering hydrates the grains. Period.  If it didn't then there would be no risk of bursting the germ. If simmering didn't hydrate the grains germs would burst without boiling, just by soaking them.

RR doesn't have to say the simmer is for hydration because it would take a complete idiot to not realize that simmering any kind of grain hydrates it.

If all the simmer is supposed to do it get them hot for evaporation, then why does he boil them for 10 whole minutes?  The water temperature can't rise above boiling.  So why wouldn't he just dump them as soon as a full boil was reached? Surely he doesn't need to maintain that heat for 10 whole minutes JUST to make them steamy.



Quote:

LeopardMan said:
I rarely soak my grains and I have never experienced any problem. The endospores conspiracy theory is a huge myth IME :shrug:



thats coming from a trusted cultivator.


Quote:

Javadog said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
steam dries grains faster than evaporating standing water.

thats about it.
<SNIP>





You are on it today bro. 

Yes, this is why I like to do the simmer, the "steam dry".

The warmth of the grains really helps them dry.

JD



that was also said by a tc...
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14737043/fpart/2/vc/1

yes simmering may help the grains get to field capacity but it isnt its primary function.. unless you want to reduce your soak time.. which RR did in his video.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: while i wait... [Re: silverstem]
    #19157812 - 11/19/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Simmering dry grains will hydrate them, as will soaking.  However, if you boil or simmer dry grains, they expand too fast and many will burst.  Burst grains spill starch and are harder for the mycelium to colonize.  This can and does cause problems later.

Soaking grains in hot water hydrates them without bursting.  If one follows this procedure, the boil is to get them hot enough to steam dry before loading into jars. Other growers use different procedures, but all of them involve getting the grains to the correct moisture content and then sterilizing.

Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed.  Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.  Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours.  When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18958259#18958259


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Offlinesilverstem
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Re: while i wait... [Re: PussyFart]
    #19157818 - 11/19/13 12:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: while i wait... [Re: silverstem]
    #19157843 - 11/19/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

RR's 5 steps to perfect grain spawn video 'wrap up'  This is from the paid version I don't know if it's different from the online one.  This is the final part of the video where he summarizes the steps in the previous 10 minutes.

When he comes to part three he opens with 'We boil for a couple of reasons, ONE: IT FINISHES HYDRATING THE GRAINS.'

Boiling is absolutely necessary for proper hydration of grains. I've never seen a grain that became fully hydrated and burst simply from soaking in water.  An overnight soak is not long enough to fully hydrate a grain, period.  It is definitely enough to PRIME a grain and soften it but to hydrate the inner germ you must boil it.

When you soak a grain it will soften.  But there is always an 'equilibrium' point where no further soaking will achieve any further hydration.  With white rice, my most familiar example, this is achieved at the 20 - 30 minute point.  No further softening will occur after this equilibrium has been reached.  To hydrate further and completely you MUST boil it.

Those TC's you cited may be good at growing but they have an incomplete understanding of the actual grain itself.

Why aren't there a hundred no boil grain teks out there if it's only purpose is to speed up drying?

I ask again, if the only reason for the boil was steam drying then why not dump them right away at boiling?


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: while i wait... [Re: silverstem]
    #19157844 - 11/19/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you gotta mix your grains while they are hot to let the steam out, I do it on paper to make sure excess water is lost.

the (wbs) grains are done just before you can squish the milo completely, it takes cooking to get it to this point.


Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (11/19/13 12:45 AM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: while i wait... [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19158063 - 11/19/13 02:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Boiling is absolutely necessary for proper hydration of grains.



Not really....I never simmer/boil my WBS.....comes out perfect every time when soaked in hot tap water for 24 hours.


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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: while i wait... [Re: PussyFart]
    #19158078 - 11/19/13 02:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Boiling is absolutely necessary for proper hydration of grains.



Not really....I never simmer/boil my WBS.....comes out perfect every time when soaked in hot tap water for 24 hours.




Okay, I'm sorry I realize now I've been looking at this from the wrong perspective.

In the kitchen, we boil grains for full hydration.  We cook them.

But mycelium does not need the grains to be cooked to enjoy a tasty birdseed meal.

In the case of 'properly' hydrating grains for the purpose of growing mycelium, perhaps the boil is unnecessary. 

For the purpose of human consumption (the paradigm within which I operate and comprehend) boiling is necessary to hydrate a grain completely.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: while i wait... [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19158352 - 11/19/13 05:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Bah, I never said we dont need to soak and that
the only reason we simmer is to hydrate.

I merely pointed out the fact that it serves
a main function of steam drying the grain.


--------------------
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Offlineurthtown
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Re: while i wait... [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19158614 - 11/19/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
Again, the reason we simmer is to get the grains super hot,
and then allow them to dry in open air, virtually steaming
themselves dry...




Rice won't hydrate if you don't bring it to a boil. Neither will rye and with rye we boil hard for a whole ten minutes.

Grains will dry without heat.  We simmer to hydrate.  Different grains require different amounts of simmering.  Bird Seed doesn't take very long to simmer to hydrate.  Rye takes a lot of boiling. Rice takes a medium amount of boiling.

If we didn't need to 'cook' the grains to hydrate them then no company would ever sell rice cookers.  Grains can only absorb so much without boiling.  You'll never get fully hydrated rice with room temperature water no matter how long you leave it in the water.




In starchy grains this is called gelatinization - a process that only occurs in the presence of heat and water. This actually destroys the crystal structure of the starch molecule. You are exactly right, without heat to gelatinize, soaking would only hydrate so much. You need to actually begin to break down the starches to increase the water storage capacity of the grain.


--------------------
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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: while i wait... [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19158841 - 11/19/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I soaked for almost 24 hours before and the milo was not tender, brought it up to a boil and bam milo soft.

Is it not essential to get the grain to a semi-squishable state? or does the myc break it down regardless?

I understand that it does not take cooking to hydrate fully, but is it necessary to get a softer texture through cooking?


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: while i wait... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19158912 - 11/19/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

For me it makes little difference....my mycellium love my grains after a 24 hour soak in hot tap water, even without a boil/simmer....even without being really "squishy"....


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OfflineAero
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Re: while i wait... [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19159017 - 11/19/13 10:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

word!


--------------------
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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: while i wait... [Re: vaneazy]
    #19159025 - 11/19/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

vaneazy said:
1) first off, how long do you guys let your grains soak? whenever i let it go for 24 it seems i get a lot of exploded seeds

2) how do you guys like to let your WBS dry? i would like to try to get away from letting it sit in the strainers after simmering because when i shake the colander seeds go everywhere and it seems to take forever to get the bottom dry

3) Finally, do you guys have any tips for doings G2G in a SAB? i wipe the jars with alcohol and spray a lot of oust in the box/room and still tend to get a contam or two, just anything you guys might do that arent expressly stated in the how-tos?
Thanks for any answers guys!




WBS prep
G2G in a SAB

Burst grains are caused by boiling for too long.

:goodluck:


--------------------

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You should take a look. :hehehe:


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InvisibleFred Teddy
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Re: while i wait... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19159189 - 11/19/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I hydrate my grains by weight, I shoot for a 50% max final product. Anywhere between 45% - 50% moisture content gives me good results. I found that soaking any longer than 6 hrs does not add much to the hydration of grains. The grain soaks up to about 40% moisture content by weight relatively quickly, then the rate of absorption decreases dramatically after 6 hrs or so. A 24 hr or more soak will get the moisture content up to around 45% with no simmering needed, but I'm impatient so I help it along a little. I'll simmer to get the last 10-15% into the grain. Load into jars and pc, no drying needed. 

If you use the weight method, remember that the grain has moisture content to begin with. In the case of popcorn that moisture content is around 13% - 14%, an industry standard, so 100 gms of popcorn is really 87 gms of popcorn + 13 gms water. In the end, 100 grams of popcorn hydrated should weigh around 130 grams (87+43) + 5 grams water that I will lose in the pc. = 135 gms. This method is very consistent for me.

To check the moisture content of your 'dry' grains, measure out exactly 100 grams of grain, place on pan, put in oven 225F-250F for a couple 3 hrs. Remove and weigh. Subtract that weight from 100 and thats your moisture content in %. That figure wont be exact, but will be pretty close. If you dont factor in original water content, in the case of popcorn, 50 gms water to 100 gms corn = around 60% moisture content. Thats moving on the to 'wet' side imo, so you have to pay attention to what you're starting with.

Peace,
FT


--------------------
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Offlinesilverstem
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Re: while i wait... [Re: Fred Teddy]
    #19159206 - 11/19/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i wouldnt do grains that way.. not drying the outside of your grains could cause pooling water at the bottom of your jar.


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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: while i wait... [Re: Fred Teddy]
    #19159221 - 11/19/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You could weigh the whole batch of grain, pre-soak and after to get water weight.


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InvisibleFred Teddy
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Re: while i wait... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19159266 - 11/19/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silverstem said:
i wouldnt do grains that way.. not drying the outside of your grains could cause pooling water at the bottom of your jar.




I've never had water pool in the jar. There is no water in the jar, just hydrated grains that weigh a specific amount. No excess water here ...



--------------------
... its all about fun and games ... and no one has poked their eye out ... yet.

Peace.

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InvisibleFred Teddy
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Re: while i wait... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19159275 - 11/19/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MUSH HEAD420 said:
You could weigh the whole batch of grain, pre-soak and after to get water weight.




Thats what I do, I do 1000 gm batches, I just used 100 grams as an example. Its easier when talking percentages.


--------------------
... its all about fun and games ... and no one has poked their eye out ... yet.

Peace.

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