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OfflineMaJiK_420
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PC again?
    #19153893 - 11/18/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So I don't know what I was thinking last night, but I PC'd some bird Seed after a 6 hour soak.

This morning I realized I shouldn't use these cuz of endospores, but can I just PC them again tonight?
Any harm done with excessive re heating?


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OfflineAero
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Re: PC again? [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #19153901 - 11/18/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

how long did u PC-them? if 90min then imo u are fine, dont have to Pc them again


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Edited by Aero (11/18/13 12:35 PM)


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OfflineMaJiK_420
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Re: PC again? [Re: Aero]
    #19153921 - 11/18/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

an hour in quart pp5's.


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OfflineAero
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Re: PC again? [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #19153929 - 11/18/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i always PC the grains for 90minutes, and never had contam issues


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OfflineMaJiK_420
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Re: PC again? [Re: Aero]
    #19154124 - 11/18/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well yeah I do glass quarts @90 mins, but the pp5 supposedly takes less time to penetrate.

And I'm more concerned about the endospore issue. As long as pressure cooking twice isn't an issue I'd like to err on the side of caution and re pc to take care of endospores since I didn't even come close to a 24 hour soak.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: PC again? [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #19154165 - 11/18/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

PCing again often results in moisture being out of whack. At least that's been my experience.

There are people who soak for 6 hours as standard practice, so I think you'll be fine.

I wouldn't PC again.


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OfflineAero
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Re: PC again? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19154221 - 11/18/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

if u are concerned give it another go, and let us know how did that go.
the grains can dry out though..


im sure u heard about the no-prep wbs tek. u add the seeds and the water in the jar, pc it and done. no pre-soaking no nothing, even that works.. :smile:

but like SpitballJediS said, and i agree with him, u are fine now


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Offlinesytar
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Re: PC again? [Re: Aero]
    #19154841 - 11/18/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

FooMan seems to think the soaking for endospores thing a myth.


An old post, but if it worked for him then it should still work.


Quote:

Also, I don't buy into the soak to germinate endospores nonsense. We use pressure cookers because they get hot enough to kill heat tolerant endospores. If soaking germinated all of the endospores we wouldn't need a PC at all. If you feel the need to soak, soak to hydrate your grains, not to germinate endospores. IMO rinsing grains is more effective then soaking them as far as contaminants are concerned. Once the grains are ready for the PC, good filters and an adequate sterilization cycle (typically 90min @ 15psi) are the key to avoiding contaminants IME.




Edited by sytar (11/18/13 03:42 PM)


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: PC again? [Re: sytar]
    #19154902 - 11/18/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:popcorn:


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: PC again? [Re: sytar]
    #19154975 - 11/18/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If you are going to quote someone, please post the link to the quote.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: PC again? [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19154986 - 11/18/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If they were sterilized for 90 minutes at 15 psi germinating endospores is not necessary.


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: PC again? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19155038 - 11/18/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
If you are going to quote someone, please post the link to the quote.





Even now?

:nicesmile:


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: PC again? [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19155121 - 11/18/13 04:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's especially important when the quote is from only 2 posts away in the same thread and doesn't help settle a debate or clear up confusion.:wink:


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Edited by SpitballJedi (11/18/13 04:17 PM)


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: PC again? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19155320 - 11/18/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Oh god, I actually forgot to link it.

I was just being a smartass, but that made me
look like a dickhead.

Choices.


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Offlinesilverstem
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Re: PC again? [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19155384 - 11/18/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Endospores can survive without nutrients. They are resistant to ultraviolet radiation, desiccation, high temperature, extreme freezing and chemical disinfectants.... ENDOSPORES DO NOT GET DESTROYED FROM HEAT.... According to scientist Dr. Steinn Sigurdsson, "There are viable bacterial spores that have been found that are 40 million years old on Earth - and we know they're very hardened to radiation."[4] Common anti-bacterial agents that work by destroying vegetative cell walls do not affect endospores. Endospores are commonly found in soil and water, where they may survive for long periods of time. Endospore formation is usually triggered by a lack of nutrients, and usually occurs in Gram-positive bacteria. you wouldn't find many endospores on grains.. i would be more concerned of mold spores.


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OfflineMaJiK_420
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Re: PC again? [Re: silverstem]
    #19155479 - 11/18/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silverstem said:
Endospores can survive without nutrients. They are resistant to ultraviolet radiation, desiccation, high temperature, extreme freezing and chemical disinfectants.... ENDOSPORES DO NOT GET DESTROYED FROM HEAT.... According to scientist Dr. Steinn Sigurdsson, "There are viable bacterial spores that have been found that are 40 million years old on Earth - and we know they're very hardened to radiation."[4] Common anti-bacterial agents that work by destroying vegetative cell walls do not affect endospores. Endospores are commonly found in soil and water, where they may survive for long periods of time. Endospore formation is usually triggered by a lack of nutrients, and usually occurs in Gram-positive bacteria. you wouldn't find many endospores on grains.. i would be more concerned of mold spores.




Ha wikipedia, I just looked up that same paragraph.
I think it only fuels the confusion though.

When we talk about "endospores" are we really talking about endospores?
Ill Google in the meantime, but it's slow going on my phone.

I appreciate the discussion. I have had some bacterial issues lately, only my wbs, my gs has been fine but I miss my bulk tubs so I am re evaluating my wbs procedure.

Wanted to follow Franks wbs prep but then I ran into the whole endospore 24 hour soak thing.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: PC again? [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #19155601 - 11/18/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

. Endospore formation is usually triggered by a lack of nutrients, and usually occurs in Gram-positive bacteria. you wouldn't find many endospores on grains.. i would be more concerned of mold spores.




They form while grain is originally drying I believe. Also what happens is small areas run out of nutrients so a bunch of endospores form in that area while at the same time the vegetative bacteria may still be thriving in nearby areas.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: PC again? [Re: MaJiK_420]
    #19155604 - 11/18/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Endospores don't have to be germinated to be destroyed. They only need to be hydrated.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18958259#18958259
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Endospores are very real and a problem if not properly dealt with.

Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed.  Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.  Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours.  When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not.
RR




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A little civility goes a long way

The Noob Forum
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OfflineMaJiK_420
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Re: PC again? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19155628 - 11/18/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Endospores don't have to be germinated to be destroyed. They only need to be hydrated.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18958259#18958259
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Endospores are very real and a problem if not properly dealt with.

Endospores do not need to germinate to be killed.  Stinky, fermented grains will have far more endospores than the original dry grain simply because endospore forming bacteria will begin to form new endospores within hours of germination.  Simply hydrate the grains before pressure cooking for at least 4 hours.  When the grains are hydrated, the hard shell of the endospore is also hydrated, thus it will easily be nuked in the pressure cooker whether it has germinated or not.
RR







I like that one. Actually think I've read that before but I get so Damn confused on what's old outdated info, and what old info is still good.  I think that clears it up fir me, makes sense anyway.


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OfflineAero
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Re: PC again? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19155641 - 11/18/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i never soaked wbs, yet never had contam issues
simmer for 1 hour then pc for 90minutes..


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