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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153642 - 11/18/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Whatever the process by which one signs up to die, that process could be faked by someone wishing to murder someone.  There are no perfect systems, and any system created by humans can be exploited by other humans.

I don't see any real societal benefit to suicide clinics, and I see a lot of good reasons to keep the state and the law out of the business of ending people's lives.


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153645 - 11/18/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

BTW Enlil, your beer is mighty tasty...


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Invisiblegzuf
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153659 - 11/18/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.





Have you thought of the benefits to society this could have? Suicides disrupt society, and have social costs.

People who choose to OD as suicide. Now you have a dead body in a house or an apartment for however long it takes to find the person. The body needs to be disposed of, and depending on how long a person was decomposing before found, the land owner may need to pay for expensive biological clean up. Also, I'm sure a suicide on a property will reduce its value.

People who are jumpers or use trains, then again, you have a huge expensive bio hazard to clean up. Not to mention that it disrupts traffic and can slow down the daily commute for hours for large groups of people. Living in an urban area, this is seen often with overpasses, commuter trains, and subway systems. Also, there is the element that is harder to measure, the impact of witnessing such an occurrence. I'm sure witnessing such a thing would raise the risk of PTSD.

People who hang/slash wrists. Same as my first point, bio hazardous waste to clean up.

Death/suicide by cop. The cost of investigation, threat to the general public, PTSD of the shooter, and witnesses.

As well, I am sure there must be many people who are in severely bad health who would rather end their life, but unable to end their own life due to their health conditions.

Another issue is that many suicide attempts fail, and could leave the person physically(physical methods) or mentally(drugs method) disabled and therefor a burden on society.

Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.




Great post :thumbup: Couldn't agree more.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153673 - 11/18/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Lol we could make suicide booths like in futurama xD jk.

I agree with Enlil. Shouldn't make it convenient for people to kill themselves. There's been plenty of days where I really wanted to but I obviously never followed through with it because the idea of it gave me shivers. Imagine if there was a clinic at the time that could drug me... Anyway if people REALLY wanted to commit suicide, they would. People already do commit suicide. It should be within someones right to kill themselves, it shouldn't be in the rights for someone else to kill them. People have a conscience, and this would be classified as murder. I think suicide is fine the way it is. You have the free will to kill yourself. You just don't have the free will to ask a person behind a desk to make it easier.


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season] * 1
    #19153686 - 11/18/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well how about if they give you the syringe to jab in your arm yourself?


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season]
    #19153705 - 11/18/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Lol we could make suicide booths like in futurama xD jk.

I agree with Enlil. Shouldn't make it convenient for people to kill themselves. There's been plenty of days where I really wanted to but I obviously never followed through with it because the idea of it gave me shivers. Imagine if there was a clinic at the time that could drug me... Anyway if people REALLY wanted to commit suicide, they would. People already do commit suicide. It should be within someones right to kill themselves, it shouldn't be in the rights for someone else to kill them. People have a conscience, and this would be classified as murder. I think suicide is fine the way it is. You have the free will to kill yourself. You just don't have the free will to ask a person behind a desk to make it easier.





Have you considered that maybe the clinics will only provide the medical neccessities in killing ones self, and not actually have the clinic staff do it.

Like the clinic provides the knowledge, setting and supplies to commit suicide, and it is the responsibility of the individual to make the final move.

Also, having these clinics could REDUCE suicides if implemented properly. By offering psychiatric help/evaluation at these clinics, some people could possibly be diverted away from suicide, as many people are unaware there is help available, or unable to attain needed help.

Just because implementing an assisted suicide system would likely be extremely difficult and would require strict monitoring, doesnt mean that it would not have long term benefits to society.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153753 - 11/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Whatever the process by which one signs up to die, that process could be faked by someone wishing to murder someone.  There are no perfect systems, and any system created by humans can be exploited by other humans.



Yes, but the tendency in some humans to commit fraud, murder or both isn't made any bigger or smaller by legalizing suicide.

Quote:

I don't see any real societal benefit to suicide clinics, and I see a lot of good reasons to keep the state and the law out of the business of ending people's lives.



1. you're assuming that the right to suicide would involve suicide clinics. We haven't even discussed assisted suicide yet, so as far as I'm concerned, you're ahead of things and rejecting the concept based on a consequence that you attach to it but that is not inherently tied to it.
2. the fact that you don't see any societal benefit isn't so much due to their absence, but due to your closing your eyes to the arguments that have been repeatedly put forth.

At this point, it's clear to me that you're not willing to consider the possibility seriously. You're just set on shooting it down with whatever means you can find. That's fine by me, but then I'm done discussing it with you. We disagree, period.


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 33,945
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: schwarg]
    #19153754 - 11/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Well how about if they give you the syringe to jab in your arm yourself?



keyword yourself


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19153763 - 11/18/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is a human rights issue for me, and it comes down to who owns your life.

I think that each person owns their life because if they don't own it, who does??


And doctor-assisted suicide Enlil, I don't think you know a whole lot about.  There are strict guidelines and protocols including:

-a waiting period

-the person has to take the medicine themselves after saying out loud what the medicine will do to them.



Not everybody wants to live, and if someone wants to take their own life that is 100% THEIR decision (Because, again, if it isn't their choice then whose is it?)


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19153778 - 11/18/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No there shouldn't be assisted suicide...Life is like school and once you die you graduate. Do you really want to be a dropout?


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"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19153795 - 11/18/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
No there shouldn't be assisted suicide...Life is like school and once you die you graduate. Do you really want to be a dropout?



why do YOU get to decide what other people do with their life?


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 33,945
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19153799 - 11/18/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
No there shouldn't be assisted suicide...Life is like school and once you die you graduate. Do you really want to be a dropout?



You ever watch Angel Beats?


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Offlinedontknow
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Registered: 07/05/13
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19153822 - 11/18/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There are suicide assistance agencies already, not in the US.

A place like this shouldn't do an evaluation of the person, if they did then everyone would obviously get diagnosed with some form of mental illness for wanting to commit suicide.


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The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly. -Proverbs 15:14

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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19153828 - 11/18/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dontknow said:
There are suicide assistance agencies already, not in the US.

A place like this shouldn't do an evaluation of the person, if they did then everyone would obviously get diagnosed with some form of mental illness for wanting to commit suicide.



assisted suicide is legal in oregon, washington, montana.


there are indeed organizations that help people get the medicine they need to end their lives. you can pick it up at a pharmacy if you have a prescription for it.


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Offlinedontknow
It's all in the reflex


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19153840 - 11/18/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

those are for people on their death beds, no? not just some guy who wants to end his life. and the doctors can opt out of helping you


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:box:

The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly. -Proverbs 15:14

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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19153847 - 11/18/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah... we should start a company and set up suicide booths...


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19153849 - 11/18/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm most familiar with one state's law in particular which says you must be terminally ill with less than 6 months to live.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Registered: 01/12/10
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Icyus]
    #19153850 - 11/18/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Yeah... we should start a company and set up suicide booths...



you can buy suicide kits online.


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19153914 - 11/18/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Free rope and guns for all!


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19154264 - 11/18/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Idk assuming this does happen, how does the clinic operate? Is it a non-profit organization or what? I mean they're only gunna get 1 time customers (lol) so do the tax payers have to pay for it? Sorry but I'm not interested in letting my tax money go for people to have an easier way of killing themselves. They can easily do it on their own with sleeping pills, guns, heroin, windshield washer fluid, anything. They don't need a clinic that takes more money than earns to kill them so the rest of us who continue living have to deal with it.

I'm all for rights, there's no way I'd tell people how to live/die but I shouldn't be paying for them to kill themselves. They can go die on their own, they don't need my help.


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Edited by Mad Season (11/18/13 01:59 PM)


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