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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Should suicide be a human right?
    #19153515 - 11/18/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Let me begin by first saying that I am in no way depressed or suicidal, I actually really enjoy life. But I was recently thinking about human rights (and the lack thereof in many parts of the world) and I feel like a certain, fundamental right has been wholly ignored or otherwise incorrectly enforced in many parts of the world. The right to die.

The most common argument that people pose when they're discussing this topic is that of free will. They claim that the suicidal individual is so impulsively driven by these suicidal urges that rationality and logic don't come into their equation of thought which makes us morally responsible to help them and to get them to see the "light." A lot of these people also falsely assume that life, or even mere existence in some cases, is always intrinsically positive and intrinsically better than death regardless of the circumstances. This comes off as being silly when you realize that death is a state that no human being has any speck of knowledge about. Nothing. Nada. Zero. We have absolutely no idea where we go, what we experience, who we become, and so forth. ANYTHING could happen after death and if someone wishes to find out what that is, who has a right to tell them they shouldn't?

Secondly, I can brain storm situations where I would much rather be dead than exist. If someone winds up in such a situation and wishes to leave, who has the right to force them to stay? It's like forcing someone to stay at a party that they're not enjoying.

Thirdly, we are forced into life just as a slave is forced to work. We had no say in the matter and even if life is a "gift", I think we can all intrinsically agree that it is up to the owner, and solely the owner, to decide what to do with his own gift, even if it means disposing of it.

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die? Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who's holding a big needle? Maybe some soft music playing in the background? Or is this inhumane? But then if it's inhumane, isn't it also inhumane to force a suffering individual to exist just because YOU assume that things will get better for him?

Discuss.

Also, please understand that killing yourself isn't easy. It's a process that can be excruciatingly painful, cause the individual to end up maimed if they don't do it properly, and is something one has to generally do ALONE. I'm suggesting a much more peaceful method instead- one where the suicidal individual will be surrounded by warm nurses, be killed completely painlessly, and so forth.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19153528 - 11/18/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would support it as long as no coercion is involved for the person going to the suicide clinic.


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19153537 - 11/18/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If your health is deteriorating fuck yea


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex] * 3
    #19153548 - 11/18/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A "suicide clinic" is actually a homicide clinic.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they should do it without assistance.  If they can't do it without assistance, then they haven't yet reached a point where they want it badly enough.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153554 - 11/18/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A "suicide clinic" is actually a homicide clinic.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they should do it without assistance.  If they can't do it without assistance, then they haven't yet reached a point where they want it badly enough.



Maybe a special law could be passed exempting the workers at the suicide clinic from homicide charges.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19153557 - 11/18/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 4
    #19153558 - 11/18/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If you need help, you don't really want it.



I don't completely agree. In most Western countries, access to means for suicide that are minimally painful or bothersome to both the subject and bystanders/survivors is kind of problematic and certainly illegal.

I believe that suicide should be a human right, yes.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153562 - 11/18/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.



Its all about convenience though a perfectly formulated dose of drugs to send you to sleep would be alot less hassle than just blowing your brains out with a shotgun.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153566 - 11/18/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So are you saying suicidal people are pussies?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153578 - 11/18/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Very few people don't have access to means to kill themselves.  If you want to die without any pain, that's a different story, but having a right to die and having a right to die without pain are two very different things.

You have a right to poke a hole in your septum.  You don't have a right to do it without pain.  If you want the hole, you might have to take the pain.  Similarly, if you want to die, you might have to take the pain.

I've never heard of anyone being charged with suicide or attempted suicide.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19153587 - 11/18/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
So are you saying suicidal people are pussies?



No.  I'm saying that most people we call "suicidal" aren't.  Suicidal people are only suicidal for a very short period of time...then they are dead people.

The rest of the people we call "suicidal" are not suicidal at all.  They're fucked up, sure...but don't actually want to die.  If/when they get to the point of actually being suicidal, they're going to be dead shortly thereafter.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153589 - 11/18/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I've never heard of anyone being charged with suicide or attempted suicide.



It's legally possible though.

And I can see your argument about people not having the right to die painlessly, but I disagree. If you grant people the right to off themselves, then might as well give them the right to do it painlessly and without hassle for survivors as well. It would be the humane thing to do. Discouraging the whole thing by not giving access to painless means of suicide is a moronic idea from an ethical viewpoint. In my country, euthanasia is legalized under certain circumstances and thank God, incurably ill people don't have to inflict unnecessary pain onto themselves in order to die. It is perhaps the most important reason to have this sort of legislation in the first place. Wouldn't make sense to take exactly that away.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19153592 - 11/18/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Its all about convenience though a perfectly formulated dose of drugs to send you to sleep would be alot less hassle than just blowing your brains out with a shotgun.



Why is convenience even a factor?  If it's the last thing you're ever going to do, why would you care how convenient it is?  You've got nothing else to do, so if it takes a bit longer or a bit more work, who cares?

As I said.  If you want to die, you'll find a way.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19153607 - 11/18/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.





Have you thought of the benefits to society this could have? Suicides disrupt society, and have social costs.

People who choose to OD as suicide. Now you have a dead body in a house or an apartment for however long it takes to find the person. The body needs to be disposed of, and depending on how long a person was decomposing before found, the land owner may need to pay for expensive biological clean up. Also, I'm sure a suicide on a property will reduce its value.

People who are jumpers or use trains, then again, you have a huge expensive bio hazard to clean up. Not to mention that it disrupts traffic and can slow down the daily commute for hours for large groups of people. Living in an urban area, this is seen often with overpasses, commuter trains, and subway systems. Also, there is the element that is harder to measure, the impact of witnessing such an occurrence. I'm sure witnessing such a thing would raise the risk of PTSD.

People who hang/slash wrists. Same as my first point, bio hazardous waste to clean up.

Death/suicide by cop. The cost of investigation, threat to the general public, PTSD of the shooter, and witnesses.

As well, I am sure there must be many people who are in severely bad health who would rather end their life, but unable to end their own life due to their health conditions.

Another issue is that many suicide attempts fail, and could leave the person physically(physical methods) or mentally(drugs method) disabled and therefor a burden on society.

Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153614 - 11/18/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:

It's legally possible though.



Is it?  I'm not so sure it is.
Quote:


And I can see your argument about people not having the right to die painlessly, but I disagree. If you grant people the right to off themselves, then might as well give them the right to do it painlessly and without hassle for survivors as well. It would be the humane thing to do.


That's backwards thinking, though.  We don't "grant" people rights.  The rights predate the law.  Dying is generally a painful process, and that fact also predates the law.  To pass a law giving someone an artificial right to die painlessly is to make nature itself illegal.  It also creates a system by which people can take the life of another human being with consent, whatever the fuck that turns out to mean.

Everyone has the right to die, and everyone eventually will.  Everyone has the option of killing themselves, which makes it a defacto right.  Setting up a system by which I can kill you if certain conditions are met, however, opens a huge can of worms wherein we have to define a whole lot of terms and deal with a lot of details.  That process will inevitably lead to a system that fails both ways...ie...allows the murder of someone without them actually consenting and denies someone a painless death even though he/she truly consents.

We avoid both errors by leaving the choice AND the responsibility up to the suicidal party.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153620 - 11/18/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.



That argument holds up just fine.  First, if you want your engine repaired badly enough, you'll either pay to have someone do it or, if paying someone is illegal, you'll learn how to do it yourself.

Also, the difference between killing oneself and repairing an engine should be obvious, but in case you missed it, I'll point it out.  Killing oneself is a final act that carries no further consequences for the person killing himself/herself.  As a result, one need not concern oneself with the cost/inconvenience of killing oneself since there are no long-term effects to be dealt with.  When repairing your engine, you have to consider the quality of the repair since you want the engine to work for some time.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 4
    #19153632 - 11/18/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

koraks said:

It's legally possible though.



Is it?  I'm not so sure it is.



It is in my country. Not sure about the US.

Quote:

That's backwards thinking, though.  We don't "grant" people rights.  The rights predate the law.  Dying is generally a painful process, and that fact also predates the law.  To pass a law giving someone an artificial right to die painlessly is to make nature itself illegal.



No, that's backwards reasoning. Many people die painlessly in their sleep. Your denying their right to do so at a chosen time isn't using the law for what it could be used: to govern a society in such a way that the interests of as many as possible of its members are served.

Quote:

It also creates a system by which people can take the life of another human being with consent (whatever the fuck that turns out to mean.



Nonsense. The right to suicide doesn't create the right to murder.

Quote:

Setting up a system by which I can kill you if certain conditions are met, however, opens a huge can of worms wherein we have to define a whole lot of terms and deal with a lot of details.



So because it's difficult, you don't want to do it? Wow. That's lame. I'm glad lawmaking in my country is undertaken by people who show a little more effort.

Quote:

That process will inevitably lead to a system that fails both ways...ie...allows the murder of someone without them actually consenting and denies someone a painless death even though he/she truly consents.



Yeah? Both at the same time? Or either? IN case of the former: how? I can sort of see the latter, although it's still questionable how big the problem would be.

Quote:

We avoid both errors by leaving the choice AND the responsibility up to the suicidal party.



And we cause huge pain and trauma to those who fail and those who witness it. Ask the emergency response crews. The train drivers. The family members who find their loved ones decomposing in their own homes. Etc.

Nope, you haven't swayed me. In fact, you've only showed me that someone with superior legal knowledge to myself can still (especially?) follow some really flawed logic.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153633 - 11/18/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.





Have you thought of the benefits to society this could have? Suicides disrupt society, and have social costs.

People who choose to OD as suicide. Now you have a dead body in a house or an apartment for however long it takes to find the person. The body needs to be disposed of, and depending on how long a person was decomposing before found, the land owner may need to pay for expensive biological clean up. Also, I'm sure a suicide on a property will reduce its value.

People who are jumpers or use trains, then again, you have a huge expensive bio hazard to clean up. Not to mention that it disrupts traffic and can slow down the daily commute for hours for large groups of people. Living in an urban area, this is seen often with overpasses, commuter trains, and subway systems. Also, there is the element that is harder to measure, the impact of witnessing such an occurrence. I'm sure witnessing such a thing would raise the risk of PTSD.

People who hang/slash wrists. Same as my first point, bio hazardous waste to clean up.

Death/suicide by cop. The cost of investigation, threat to the general public, PTSD of the shooter, and witnesses.

As well, I am sure there must be many people who are in severely bad health who would rather end their life, but unable to end their own life due to their health conditions.

Another issue is that many suicide attempts fail, and could leave the person physically(physical methods) or mentally(drugs method) disabled and therefor a burden on society.

Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.




/end thread


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153634 - 11/18/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'd have to say yes.


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153638 - 11/18/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't see what the problem is. If someone wants to commit suicide, and a business wants to perform the deed , and there's no coercion or trickery involved, why not let the person be euthanized?

It shouldn't be as easy as going to a death clinic and handing them your credit card and stepping into a death booth. I guess the clinic should be required to have psychiatrists and counselors on site. There would be some kind of process where the mental status of the client would be evaluated, and if everything's fine there would be a waiting period before they actually go through with it.

Not sure who would ever want to work at a suicide assistance agency though.


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