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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Should suicide be a human right?
    #19153515 - 11/18/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Let me begin by first saying that I am in no way depressed or suicidal, I actually really enjoy life. But I was recently thinking about human rights (and the lack thereof in many parts of the world) and I feel like a certain, fundamental right has been wholly ignored or otherwise incorrectly enforced in many parts of the world. The right to die.

The most common argument that people pose when they're discussing this topic is that of free will. They claim that the suicidal individual is so impulsively driven by these suicidal urges that rationality and logic don't come into their equation of thought which makes us morally responsible to help them and to get them to see the "light." A lot of these people also falsely assume that life, or even mere existence in some cases, is always intrinsically positive and intrinsically better than death regardless of the circumstances. This comes off as being silly when you realize that death is a state that no human being has any speck of knowledge about. Nothing. Nada. Zero. We have absolutely no idea where we go, what we experience, who we become, and so forth. ANYTHING could happen after death and if someone wishes to find out what that is, who has a right to tell them they shouldn't?

Secondly, I can brain storm situations where I would much rather be dead than exist. If someone winds up in such a situation and wishes to leave, who has the right to force them to stay? It's like forcing someone to stay at a party that they're not enjoying.

Thirdly, we are forced into life just as a slave is forced to work. We had no say in the matter and even if life is a "gift", I think we can all intrinsically agree that it is up to the owner, and solely the owner, to decide what to do with his own gift, even if it means disposing of it.

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die? Maybe in a dimly lit room with a cute nurse who's holding a big needle? Maybe some soft music playing in the background? Or is this inhumane? But then if it's inhumane, isn't it also inhumane to force a suffering individual to exist just because YOU assume that things will get better for him?

Discuss.

Also, please understand that killing yourself isn't easy. It's a process that can be excruciatingly painful, cause the individual to end up maimed if they don't do it properly, and is something one has to generally do ALONE. I'm suggesting a much more peaceful method instead- one where the suicidal individual will be surrounded by warm nurses, be killed completely painlessly, and so forth.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19153528 - 11/18/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I would support it as long as no coercion is involved for the person going to the suicide clinic.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19153537 - 11/18/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If your health is deteriorating fuck yea


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex] * 3
    #19153548 - 11/18/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A "suicide clinic" is actually a homicide clinic.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they should do it without assistance.  If they can't do it without assistance, then they haven't yet reached a point where they want it badly enough.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153554 - 11/18/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A "suicide clinic" is actually a homicide clinic.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they should do it without assistance.  If they can't do it without assistance, then they haven't yet reached a point where they want it badly enough.



Maybe a special law could be passed exempting the workers at the suicide clinic from homicide charges.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19153557 - 11/18/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 4
    #19153558 - 11/18/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If you need help, you don't really want it.



I don't completely agree. In most Western countries, access to means for suicide that are minimally painful or bothersome to both the subject and bystanders/survivors is kind of problematic and certainly illegal.

I believe that suicide should be a human right, yes.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153562 - 11/18/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.



Its all about convenience though a perfectly formulated dose of drugs to send you to sleep would be alot less hassle than just blowing your brains out with a shotgun.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153566 - 11/18/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So are you saying suicidal people are pussies?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153578 - 11/18/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Very few people don't have access to means to kill themselves.  If you want to die without any pain, that's a different story, but having a right to die and having a right to die without pain are two very different things.

You have a right to poke a hole in your septum.  You don't have a right to do it without pain.  If you want the hole, you might have to take the pain.  Similarly, if you want to die, you might have to take the pain.

I've never heard of anyone being charged with suicide or attempted suicide.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19153587 - 11/18/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
So are you saying suicidal people are pussies?



No.  I'm saying that most people we call "suicidal" aren't.  Suicidal people are only suicidal for a very short period of time...then they are dead people.

The rest of the people we call "suicidal" are not suicidal at all.  They're fucked up, sure...but don't actually want to die.  If/when they get to the point of actually being suicidal, they're going to be dead shortly thereafter.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153589 - 11/18/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I've never heard of anyone being charged with suicide or attempted suicide.



It's legally possible though.

And I can see your argument about people not having the right to die painlessly, but I disagree. If you grant people the right to off themselves, then might as well give them the right to do it painlessly and without hassle for survivors as well. It would be the humane thing to do. Discouraging the whole thing by not giving access to painless means of suicide is a moronic idea from an ethical viewpoint. In my country, euthanasia is legalized under certain circumstances and thank God, incurably ill people don't have to inflict unnecessary pain onto themselves in order to die. It is perhaps the most important reason to have this sort of legislation in the first place. Wouldn't make sense to take exactly that away.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19153592 - 11/18/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Its all about convenience though a perfectly formulated dose of drugs to send you to sleep would be alot less hassle than just blowing your brains out with a shotgun.



Why is convenience even a factor?  If it's the last thing you're ever going to do, why would you care how convenient it is?  You've got nothing else to do, so if it takes a bit longer or a bit more work, who cares?

As I said.  If you want to die, you'll find a way.


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19153607 - 11/18/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.





Have you thought of the benefits to society this could have? Suicides disrupt society, and have social costs.

People who choose to OD as suicide. Now you have a dead body in a house or an apartment for however long it takes to find the person. The body needs to be disposed of, and depending on how long a person was decomposing before found, the land owner may need to pay for expensive biological clean up. Also, I'm sure a suicide on a property will reduce its value.

People who are jumpers or use trains, then again, you have a huge expensive bio hazard to clean up. Not to mention that it disrupts traffic and can slow down the daily commute for hours for large groups of people. Living in an urban area, this is seen often with overpasses, commuter trains, and subway systems. Also, there is the element that is harder to measure, the impact of witnessing such an occurrence. I'm sure witnessing such a thing would raise the risk of PTSD.

People who hang/slash wrists. Same as my first point, bio hazardous waste to clean up.

Death/suicide by cop. The cost of investigation, threat to the general public, PTSD of the shooter, and witnesses.

As well, I am sure there must be many people who are in severely bad health who would rather end their life, but unable to end their own life due to their health conditions.

Another issue is that many suicide attempts fail, and could leave the person physically(physical methods) or mentally(drugs method) disabled and therefor a burden on society.

Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153614 - 11/18/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:

It's legally possible though.



Is it?  I'm not so sure it is.
Quote:


And I can see your argument about people not having the right to die painlessly, but I disagree. If you grant people the right to off themselves, then might as well give them the right to do it painlessly and without hassle for survivors as well. It would be the humane thing to do.


That's backwards thinking, though.  We don't "grant" people rights.  The rights predate the law.  Dying is generally a painful process, and that fact also predates the law.  To pass a law giving someone an artificial right to die painlessly is to make nature itself illegal.  It also creates a system by which people can take the life of another human being with consent, whatever the fuck that turns out to mean.

Everyone has the right to die, and everyone eventually will.  Everyone has the option of killing themselves, which makes it a defacto right.  Setting up a system by which I can kill you if certain conditions are met, however, opens a huge can of worms wherein we have to define a whole lot of terms and deal with a lot of details.  That process will inevitably lead to a system that fails both ways...ie...allows the murder of someone without them actually consenting and denies someone a painless death even though he/she truly consents.

We avoid both errors by leaving the choice AND the responsibility up to the suicidal party.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153620 - 11/18/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.



That argument holds up just fine.  First, if you want your engine repaired badly enough, you'll either pay to have someone do it or, if paying someone is illegal, you'll learn how to do it yourself.

Also, the difference between killing oneself and repairing an engine should be obvious, but in case you missed it, I'll point it out.  Killing oneself is a final act that carries no further consequences for the person killing himself/herself.  As a result, one need not concern oneself with the cost/inconvenience of killing oneself since there are no long-term effects to be dealt with.  When repairing your engine, you have to consider the quality of the repair since you want the engine to work for some time.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 4
    #19153632 - 11/18/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

koraks said:

It's legally possible though.



Is it?  I'm not so sure it is.



It is in my country. Not sure about the US.

Quote:

That's backwards thinking, though.  We don't "grant" people rights.  The rights predate the law.  Dying is generally a painful process, and that fact also predates the law.  To pass a law giving someone an artificial right to die painlessly is to make nature itself illegal.



No, that's backwards reasoning. Many people die painlessly in their sleep. Your denying their right to do so at a chosen time isn't using the law for what it could be used: to govern a society in such a way that the interests of as many as possible of its members are served.

Quote:

It also creates a system by which people can take the life of another human being with consent (whatever the fuck that turns out to mean.



Nonsense. The right to suicide doesn't create the right to murder.

Quote:

Setting up a system by which I can kill you if certain conditions are met, however, opens a huge can of worms wherein we have to define a whole lot of terms and deal with a lot of details.



So because it's difficult, you don't want to do it? Wow. That's lame. I'm glad lawmaking in my country is undertaken by people who show a little more effort.

Quote:

That process will inevitably lead to a system that fails both ways...ie...allows the murder of someone without them actually consenting and denies someone a painless death even though he/she truly consents.



Yeah? Both at the same time? Or either? IN case of the former: how? I can sort of see the latter, although it's still questionable how big the problem would be.

Quote:

We avoid both errors by leaving the choice AND the responsibility up to the suicidal party.



And we cause huge pain and trauma to those who fail and those who witness it. Ask the emergency response crews. The train drivers. The family members who find their loved ones decomposing in their own homes. Etc.

Nope, you haven't swayed me. In fact, you've only showed me that someone with superior legal knowledge to myself can still (especially?) follow some really flawed logic.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153633 - 11/18/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.





Have you thought of the benefits to society this could have? Suicides disrupt society, and have social costs.

People who choose to OD as suicide. Now you have a dead body in a house or an apartment for however long it takes to find the person. The body needs to be disposed of, and depending on how long a person was decomposing before found, the land owner may need to pay for expensive biological clean up. Also, I'm sure a suicide on a property will reduce its value.

People who are jumpers or use trains, then again, you have a huge expensive bio hazard to clean up. Not to mention that it disrupts traffic and can slow down the daily commute for hours for large groups of people. Living in an urban area, this is seen often with overpasses, commuter trains, and subway systems. Also, there is the element that is harder to measure, the impact of witnessing such an occurrence. I'm sure witnessing such a thing would raise the risk of PTSD.

People who hang/slash wrists. Same as my first point, bio hazardous waste to clean up.

Death/suicide by cop. The cost of investigation, threat to the general public, PTSD of the shooter, and witnesses.

As well, I am sure there must be many people who are in severely bad health who would rather end their life, but unable to end their own life due to their health conditions.

Another issue is that many suicide attempts fail, and could leave the person physically(physical methods) or mentally(drugs method) disabled and therefor a burden on society.

Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.




/end thread


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153634 - 11/18/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'd have to say yes.


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153638 - 11/18/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't see what the problem is. If someone wants to commit suicide, and a business wants to perform the deed , and there's no coercion or trickery involved, why not let the person be euthanized?

It shouldn't be as easy as going to a death clinic and handing them your credit card and stepping into a death booth. I guess the clinic should be required to have psychiatrists and counselors on site. There would be some kind of process where the mental status of the client would be evaluated, and if everything's fine there would be a waiting period before they actually go through with it.

Not sure who would ever want to work at a suicide assistance agency though.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153642 - 11/18/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Whatever the process by which one signs up to die, that process could be faked by someone wishing to murder someone.  There are no perfect systems, and any system created by humans can be exploited by other humans.

I don't see any real societal benefit to suicide clinics, and I see a lot of good reasons to keep the state and the law out of the business of ending people's lives.


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153645 - 11/18/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

BTW Enlil, your beer is mighty tasty...


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Invisiblegzuf
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19153659 - 11/18/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Why?  As I said before, if you want to kill yourself, you can do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you need help, you don't really want it.





Have you thought of the benefits to society this could have? Suicides disrupt society, and have social costs.

People who choose to OD as suicide. Now you have a dead body in a house or an apartment for however long it takes to find the person. The body needs to be disposed of, and depending on how long a person was decomposing before found, the land owner may need to pay for expensive biological clean up. Also, I'm sure a suicide on a property will reduce its value.

People who are jumpers or use trains, then again, you have a huge expensive bio hazard to clean up. Not to mention that it disrupts traffic and can slow down the daily commute for hours for large groups of people. Living in an urban area, this is seen often with overpasses, commuter trains, and subway systems. Also, there is the element that is harder to measure, the impact of witnessing such an occurrence. I'm sure witnessing such a thing would raise the risk of PTSD.

People who hang/slash wrists. Same as my first point, bio hazardous waste to clean up.

Death/suicide by cop. The cost of investigation, threat to the general public, PTSD of the shooter, and witnesses.

As well, I am sure there must be many people who are in severely bad health who would rather end their life, but unable to end their own life due to their health conditions.

Another issue is that many suicide attempts fail, and could leave the person physically(physical methods) or mentally(drugs method) disabled and therefor a burden on society.

Sightly off topic, you argument is flawed anyways. You argument has the same flaws as telling someone they didnt really want their car engine repaired because they needed help in getting it repaired.




Great post :thumbup: Couldn't agree more.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19153673 - 11/18/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lol we could make suicide booths like in futurama xD jk.

I agree with Enlil. Shouldn't make it convenient for people to kill themselves. There's been plenty of days where I really wanted to but I obviously never followed through with it because the idea of it gave me shivers. Imagine if there was a clinic at the time that could drug me... Anyway if people REALLY wanted to commit suicide, they would. People already do commit suicide. It should be within someones right to kill themselves, it shouldn't be in the rights for someone else to kill them. People have a conscience, and this would be classified as murder. I think suicide is fine the way it is. You have the free will to kill yourself. You just don't have the free will to ask a person behind a desk to make it easier.


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season] * 1
    #19153686 - 11/18/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well how about if they give you the syringe to jab in your arm yourself?


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InvisibleEdibleStereos
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season]
    #19153705 - 11/18/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Lol we could make suicide booths like in futurama xD jk.

I agree with Enlil. Shouldn't make it convenient for people to kill themselves. There's been plenty of days where I really wanted to but I obviously never followed through with it because the idea of it gave me shivers. Imagine if there was a clinic at the time that could drug me... Anyway if people REALLY wanted to commit suicide, they would. People already do commit suicide. It should be within someones right to kill themselves, it shouldn't be in the rights for someone else to kill them. People have a conscience, and this would be classified as murder. I think suicide is fine the way it is. You have the free will to kill yourself. You just don't have the free will to ask a person behind a desk to make it easier.





Have you considered that maybe the clinics will only provide the medical neccessities in killing ones self, and not actually have the clinic staff do it.

Like the clinic provides the knowledge, setting and supplies to commit suicide, and it is the responsibility of the individual to make the final move.

Also, having these clinics could REDUCE suicides if implemented properly. By offering psychiatric help/evaluation at these clinics, some people could possibly be diverted away from suicide, as many people are unaware there is help available, or unable to attain needed help.

Just because implementing an assisted suicide system would likely be extremely difficult and would require strict monitoring, doesnt mean that it would not have long term benefits to society.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19153753 - 11/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Whatever the process by which one signs up to die, that process could be faked by someone wishing to murder someone.  There are no perfect systems, and any system created by humans can be exploited by other humans.



Yes, but the tendency in some humans to commit fraud, murder or both isn't made any bigger or smaller by legalizing suicide.

Quote:

I don't see any real societal benefit to suicide clinics, and I see a lot of good reasons to keep the state and the law out of the business of ending people's lives.



1. you're assuming that the right to suicide would involve suicide clinics. We haven't even discussed assisted suicide yet, so as far as I'm concerned, you're ahead of things and rejecting the concept based on a consequence that you attach to it but that is not inherently tied to it.
2. the fact that you don't see any societal benefit isn't so much due to their absence, but due to your closing your eyes to the arguments that have been repeatedly put forth.

At this point, it's clear to me that you're not willing to consider the possibility seriously. You're just set on shooting it down with whatever means you can find. That's fine by me, but then I'm done discussing it with you. We disagree, period.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: schwarg]
    #19153754 - 11/18/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
Well how about if they give you the syringe to jab in your arm yourself?



keyword yourself


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19153763 - 11/18/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This is a human rights issue for me, and it comes down to who owns your life.

I think that each person owns their life because if they don't own it, who does??


And doctor-assisted suicide Enlil, I don't think you know a whole lot about.  There are strict guidelines and protocols including:

-a waiting period

-the person has to take the medicine themselves after saying out loud what the medicine will do to them.



Not everybody wants to live, and if someone wants to take their own life that is 100% THEIR decision (Because, again, if it isn't their choice then whose is it?)


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19153778 - 11/18/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No there shouldn't be assisted suicide...Life is like school and once you die you graduate. Do you really want to be a dropout?


--------------------
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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19153795 - 11/18/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
No there shouldn't be assisted suicide...Life is like school and once you die you graduate. Do you really want to be a dropout?



why do YOU get to decide what other people do with their life?


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19153799 - 11/18/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
No there shouldn't be assisted suicide...Life is like school and once you die you graduate. Do you really want to be a dropout?



You ever watch Angel Beats?


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Offlinedontknow
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19153822 - 11/18/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There are suicide assistance agencies already, not in the US.

A place like this shouldn't do an evaluation of the person, if they did then everyone would obviously get diagnosed with some form of mental illness for wanting to commit suicide.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19153828 - 11/18/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dontknow said:
There are suicide assistance agencies already, not in the US.

A place like this shouldn't do an evaluation of the person, if they did then everyone would obviously get diagnosed with some form of mental illness for wanting to commit suicide.



assisted suicide is legal in oregon, washington, montana.


there are indeed organizations that help people get the medicine they need to end their lives. you can pick it up at a pharmacy if you have a prescription for it.


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Offlinedontknow
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19153840 - 11/18/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

those are for people on their death beds, no? not just some guy who wants to end his life. and the doctors can opt out of helping you


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19153847 - 11/18/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah... we should start a company and set up suicide booths...


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19153849 - 11/18/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm most familiar with one state's law in particular which says you must be terminally ill with less than 6 months to live.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Icyus]
    #19153850 - 11/18/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icyus said:
Yeah... we should start a company and set up suicide booths...



you can buy suicide kits online.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19153914 - 11/18/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Free rope and guns for all!


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Konyap]
    #19154264 - 11/18/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Idk assuming this does happen, how does the clinic operate? Is it a non-profit organization or what? I mean they're only gunna get 1 time customers (lol) so do the tax payers have to pay for it? Sorry but I'm not interested in letting my tax money go for people to have an easier way of killing themselves. They can easily do it on their own with sleeping pills, guns, heroin, windshield washer fluid, anything. They don't need a clinic that takes more money than earns to kill them so the rest of us who continue living have to deal with it.

I'm all for rights, there's no way I'd tell people how to live/die but I shouldn't be paying for them to kill themselves. They can go die on their own, they don't need my help.


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Edited by Mad Season (11/18/13 01:59 PM)


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: koraks]
    #19154465 - 11/18/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:

1. you're assuming that the right to suicide would involve suicide clinics. We haven't even discussed assisted suicide yet,



That's EXACTLY what we've been discussing, dude.  Read the OP.

Quote:

Alexestalex said:

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die?




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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19154585 - 11/18/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It doesn't need to be a human right. Just one of those things you either do or don't. I wouldn't shine a spotlight on it.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19154595 - 11/18/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't read any of the responses to this post but if any one said " who gives a fuck if its a right or not because once you're  dead it won't matter" or anything along those lines I agree with them.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season]
    #19154812 - 11/18/13 03:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Idk assuming this does happen, how does the clinic operate? Is it a non-profit organization or what? I mean they're only gunna get 1 time customers (lol) so do the tax payers have to pay for it? Sorry but I'm not interested in letting my tax money go for people to have an easier way of killing themselves. They can easily do it on their own with sleeping pills, guns, heroin, windshield washer fluid, anything. They don't need a clinic that takes more money than earns to kill them so the rest of us who continue living have to deal with it.

I'm all for rights, there's no way I'd tell people how to live/die but I shouldn't be paying for them to kill themselves. They can go die on their own, they don't need my help.





In Canada, even more so than america, suicide clinics would probably SAVE taxpayer money. Due to decreased hospital admissions, ODSP costs, etc. As well as the more easily recognized costs associated with suicide which I clearly outlined in my first post in this thread.

And this isn't even touching on the long term theoretical implications of overpopulation.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19154903 - 11/18/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A "suicide clinic" is actually a homicide clinic.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they should do it without assistance.  If they can't do it without assistance, then they haven't yet reached a point where they want it badly enough.




Thats not completely true, there are many conditions such as advanced lou gherigs disease m.s. etc. where people have lost all motor skills, they may want suicide but without assistance it wouldnt be possible.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19154922 - 11/18/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A nice way to go maybe overdosing  on a deleriant?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19154960 - 11/18/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It should most absolutely be a human right should someone choose to want to take their own life.


That said there should be less encouragement to commit suicide from society and more support programs for mentally deranged and insane people.

basically, we want you to get better.. but if you want to just off yourself despite all the love then that's ultimately your own choice.

The way our society is currently run I can see why a lot of people would choose suicide. But I'd rather fight to change it


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Shroomism] * 1
    #19155058 - 11/18/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Are you a 18 year old girl who lost her BF, or are you a terminal cancer patient?

I think the whole argument is silly though. If someone is going to kill themselves they either do it or they don't.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Sugar Of Saturn]
    #19155140 - 11/18/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sugar Of Saturn said:
Are you a 18 year old girl who lost her BF, or are you a terminal cancer patient?

I think the whole argument is silly though. If someone is going to kill themselves they either do it or they don't.





Okay, than explain how a terminally ill patient who may be physically incapacitated can commit suicide.

We have compassion for those who develop cancer despite life choices that may have caused it, and provide drugs that eliminate their suffering.

Why shouldnt we have compassion to help eliminate suffering in those who would rather choose to end their suffering?

Also, most people here clearly have a misunderstanding of psychological problems and their causes. Choosing death is not an easy decision, and many who make that choice have made it after years of trying to alleviate their problems.

Do you really think people have one small hiccup in their life and choose suicide? No. Suicide is a very extreme outcome, normally brought about by very extreme circumstances, many involving severe physical, psychological, or sexual abuse.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155182 - 11/18/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ok I think I'm beginning to understand this suicide clinic idea. It would be a clinic designed to actually help FIGHT suicide. It has courses and counselors there to help you decide what is actually the best outcome. If it is suicide, they give you something to kill you painlessly, if it isn't they could refer you to a psychiatrist/psychologist or just let you go. If you were found doing an attempted suicide, they should put you into this suicide clinic so you can actually decide what to do, rather than being forced to live.

but the #1 motto of it should be: WARNING! Your decisions will effect others.

Hopefully the therapists there will be able to determine how much it would effect others and whether or not that's the actual determinant as to why someone can't die.

I think if things were like this, I'd be all for it.


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Edited by Mad Season (11/18/13 04:30 PM)


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OfflineSugar Of Saturn
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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155208 - 11/18/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
...





I agree with all that. Im saying people have committed suicide fine without clinics. well not 100% successful... But I imagine most people contemplating suicide will do it privately, the ones who go to a clinic probably just want an excuse to be talked to.
Being illegal never stopped assisted suicide either..


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Shroomism]
    #19155210 - 11/18/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
It should most absolutely be a human right should someone choose to want to take their own life.


That said there should be less encouragement to commit suicide from society and more support programs for mentally deranged and insane people.

basically, we want you to get better.. but if you want to just off yourself despite all the love then that's ultimately your own choice.

The way our society is currently run I can see why a lot of people would choose suicide. But I'd rather fight to change it



:whathesaid:


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season]
    #19155217 - 11/18/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

establishing suicide clinics would be like, condoning suicide wouldn't it?  i think the better approach is sort of just not talk about it.  as it is now.  like a lot of people said, if u really want to kill yourself you could probably find a way rather easily.

i have thought about suicide.  my problem is i think "i'm never going to have sex, not once my whole life.  no chick is going to truly like me, even if i save up thousands of dollars for sex with some hooker some place."  and the response that i sense JUST UNDER THE SURFACE from people is, "honestly, not many people are getting laid that much.  you should just relax and get drunk or do drugs." but it goes unsaid.

it's the CHARADE that drives me fuckn crazy.  like, we are living in a world of fucking lies.  UUUUUUUUUURRRGHGHGHGHGH.

alright, go ahead and call me schizo now.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: stimpson]
    #19155268 - 11/18/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

stimpson said:
i have thought about suicide.  my problem is i think "i'm never going to have sex, not once my whole life.  no chick is going to truly like me, even if i save up thousands of dollars for sex with some hooker some place."  and the response that i sense JUST UNDER THE SURFACE from people is, "honestly, not many people are getting laid that much.  you should just relax and get drunk or do drugs." but it goes unsaid.



Assuming there are counselors there at the clinic, I highly doubt they'd let people commit suicide without a BUNCH of convincing and counseling on their part. Besides they do actually say go get drunk and high, just the doctors looking for their $$.


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Edited by Mad Season (11/18/13 04:45 PM)


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Mad Season]
    #19155300 - 11/18/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Ok I think I'm beginning to understand this suicide clinic idea. It would be a clinic designed to actually help FIGHT suicide. It has courses and counselors there to help you decide what is actually the best outcome. If it is suicide, they give you something to kill you painlessly, if it isn't they could refer you to a psychiatrist/psychologist or just let you go. If you were found doing an attempted suicide, they should put you into this suicide clinic so you can actually decide what to do, rather than being forced to live.

but the #1 motto of it should be: WARNING! Your decisions will effect others.

Hopefully the therapists there will be able to determine how much it would effect others and whether or not that's the actual determinant as to why someone can't die.

I think if things were like this, I'd be all for it.





Exactly.

It isn't about offing anybody who has a slight notion of suicidal idealization. It is about providing help for those who may be suicidal due to temporary feelings, and providing a safe painless route to die for those who are 100% set on the idea. That way it minimizes the costs and risks to the general public suicides can cause.

For example, liken it to a sex change operation. Most countries require extensive counselling and therapy before the procedure can be carried out. A psychiatrist must normally be convinced that the person is fully set to move forward with the decision, and the person must demonstrate a good knowledge of the consequences of the choice.

I think bringing suicide into the public eye in a more neutral way would help eliminate the stigma surrounding suicide, and allow for more people with suicidal thoughts to be able to receive treatment.

You can draw some slight similarities to this idea with the decriminalization of drugs in Portugal. Many people would think that the decriminalization of drugs, even hard drugs like heroin, would lead to higher rates of addiction. Instead what actually happened is the new laws reduced the social stigma surrounding addiction and drug use, and resulted in more addicts seeking treatment.

That would be the similiar end goal with assisted suicide, provide help for those who are on the fence regarding taking their own life, while reducing the negative social impact of those who are set on committing suicide.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155306 - 11/18/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

Okay, than explain how a terminally ill patient who may be physically incapacitated can commit suicide.




Stop eating and drinking.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155344 - 11/18/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

Okay, than explain how a terminally ill patient who may be physically incapacitated can commit suicide.




Stop eating and drinking.





Why should we be indifferent to the suffering of those dying to diseases beyond their control, yet sympathetic to people dying of diseases their life choices caused? ( smoking induced lung cancer, liver cancer in heavy drinkers, diabetes in those who overeat, etc)

And please, actually respond to my point since you are quoting me, unlike my previous posts where you ignore contradictory views to your own.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155367 - 11/18/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know what point you have.  If someone wants to off themselves, they can do it.  Everyone has a right to do that.

No one has a right to have someone help them die without pain, though.  We've no right to live without pain, so I don't see why we'd have a right to die without pain.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155421 - 11/18/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

Okay, than explain how a terminally ill patient who may be physically incapacitated can commit suicide.




Stop eating and drinking.




A terminally ill "incapacitated patient" by definition cant feed or drink by themselves. They are essentially force fed whether they want it or not. Again assistance would not be optional, it would most certainly be essential.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19155435 - 11/18/13 05:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's a different issue, though. 

Such a patient also can't give consent for an assisted suicide.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19155506 - 11/18/13 05:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I do believe that terminally ill patients should be allowed to choose assisted suicide.  It is selfish to make someone suffer day in and day out when there is a solution to the pain.

However, if a suicide clinic were to exist, it would not necessarily be to the betterment of society.

I know several people who have tried to kill themselves, and a few who have succeeded.  The ones who have survived are all happy to be alive.  If a suicide clinic existed at the time, they might not be alive at all. 

While they may not be doctors or firefighters, they still bring joy and love
into the lives of those around them.  To remove that would be to the detriment of society.

I feel there would have to be VERY strict controls/monitors in place, and even still it would be ethically questionable.  Independent background checks of some sort to weed out individuals in the midst of an emotional unraveling making a rash decision.  Some sort of "must inform your loved ones first" clause or something.  Imagine how many people would go there in the middle of a divorce or bankruptcy? 

I feel people should be allowed to commit suicide, but I don't like it.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155518 - 11/18/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a different issue, though. 

Such a patient also can't give consent for an assisted suicide.





Since when does physical incapacitation equal mental incapacity?

Also, I find it amusing that you stand as an opponent to this idea, yet fail to address the strongest points against your ideas.

Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer or something? If your tactics in court are anything like your tactics in this thread, I can't see you as being a very successful defense lawyer.

Is ignoring counter arguments a successful tactic in court?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #19155520 - 11/18/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That really is my problem with the suicide clinic idea.  Whatever controls are in place, there will be people who bypass them or exploit them for personal gain.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 1
    #19155529 - 11/18/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I find it amusing that you stand as an opponent to this idea, yet fail to address the strongest points against your ideas.




I haven't seen any counterpoints at all...strong or otherwise.  Please restate one or more so that I know what you're talking about.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155555 - 11/18/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I would not completely discount communication, for example technology has came along to make communication possible. stephen hawking communicates through a computer. If he wished to end his life he might very well need assistance, unless he rode his roscoe scooter off the grand canyon, you could argue that, iguess. but with ever increasing technology completely incompacitated will be able to communicate, and im sure there are already cases of this. Again there are instances where assistance would be the only option.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155565 - 11/18/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I find it amusing that you stand as an opponent to this idea, yet fail to address the strongest points against your ideas.






How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 3
    #19155582 - 11/18/13 05:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If suicide is illegal, then the government is explicitly stating your mind and body do not belong to you.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 1
    #19155609 - 11/18/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.



Then don't piss and moan if I didn't respond to some point that you thought was genius.  Most likely I read it and thought it didn't address my position at all.  I'm pretty confident that you haven't the first clue what my position is on any of it.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155676 - 11/18/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.



Then don't piss and moan if I didn't respond to some point that you thought was genius.  Most likely I read it and thought it didn't address my position at all.  I'm pretty confident that you haven't the first clue what my position is on any of it.





If you are unaware of my position then you have either, not read the thread, lack reading comprehension to understand the thread, lack the short term memory necessary to participate productively in the thread, or simply choose to avoid opposing arguments as you are not able to form a respectable coherent rebuttal.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155686 - 11/18/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
How about read the thread, I am not pandering to your laziness and wasting the time of shroomerites who care to inform themselves by actually reading the thread they are responding to.



Then don't piss and moan if I didn't respond to some point that you thought was genius.  Most likely I read it and thought it didn't address my position at all.  I'm pretty confident that you haven't the first clue what my position is on any of it.




How can you say people dont have a clue on your position, when you have clearly made a position of assistance is never necessary. I think a case has showed you are clearly wrong, at least on this position.

CASE DISMISSED :thisfuckinguy:


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155696 - 11/18/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know who you are or care what your position is.  You claim I ignored a counterpoint.  Such a counterpoint can only exist if it counters MY POSITION.  Your position is irrelevant to that particular claim.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19155712 - 11/18/13 05:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

billy jowl said:


How can you say people dont have a clue on your position, when you have clearly made a position of assistance is never necessary. I think a case has showed you are clearly wrong, at least on this position.



My position is that assistance shouldn't be a right...not that it is never necessary.

Of course, it is never necessary since death will come to us all regardless of our current status...but that's not a point I've been making here.

I still have yet to see anyone present a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155717 - 11/18/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know who you are or care what your position is.  You claim I ignored a counterpoint.  Such a counterpoint can only exist if it counters MY POSITION.  Your position is irrelevant to that particular claim.





If you had read the thread, you would understand the participants in the thread's positions. Unless you fall under the scenarios I described above.

Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155723 - 11/18/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?



I'm claiming that your position is irrelevant to the veracity and accuracy of your claim that I ignore valid counterpoints.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155749 - 11/18/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?



I'm claiming that your position is irrelevant to the veracity and accuracy of your claim that I ignore valid counterpoints.



Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Are you claiming to have no knowledge of my position in this thread?



I'm claiming that your position is irrelevant to the veracity and accuracy of your claim that I ignore valid counterpoints.





If that is so, you would be able to at least be able to show you have an understanding of the counterpoints. Otherwise you would be blindly ignoring points that counter your own.

You have yet been able to demonstrate you have even a basic understanding of points refuting your stance.

How can one be taken seriously if they cannot exhibit the basic understanding of their opponents views?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155756 - 11/18/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Also, I hate to bring it up, since it is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but as being a self proclaimed defence attorney, and having started a legal advice thread, you show basic, at best, ability to understand and counter opinions contradicting your own.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19155819 - 11/18/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I hate to bring it up, since it is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but as being a self proclaimed defence attorney, and having started a legal advice thread, you show basic, at best, ability to understand and counter opinions contradicting your own.



I see it quite differently.  I see you as having very limited ability to understand my position and properly focus any point so as to make it a valid counterpoint to my argument.  There are a lot of people in this thread and on this site who are simply unable to engage in logical debate at a competent level.  I generally ignore such people's posts since there's little hope of either of us actually getting anything meaningful out of a discussion.

I suspect you are one of those people.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155825 - 11/18/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Is that why you never talk to me :feelsbadman:


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: dontknow]
    #19155846 - 11/18/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No.  I don't talk to you because you dontknow.  If you dontknow, what am I going to get out of talking to you?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155864 - 11/18/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:


How can you say people dont have a clue on your position, when you have clearly made a position of assistance is never necessary. I think a case has showed you are clearly wrong, at least on this position.



My position is that assistance shouldn't be a right...not that it is never necessary.

Of course, it is never necessary since death will come to us all regardless of our current status...but that's not a point I've been making here.

I still have yet to see anyone present a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.




Stephen Hawking was used as an example earlier, so i'll use him as an example.
1.His disease has progressed to where he can only use one cheek muscle which he communicates through.

2.Assisted suicide would be his only option, unless you know some creative way to off yourself using your left cheek.

There is no doubt it will progress further. Ifhe  wishes to commits suicide which he has stated could be an option. He WILL need assistance.

I can post the link if that would satisfy you.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19155890 - 11/18/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

billy jowl said:

Stephen Hawking was used as an example earlier, so i'll use him as an example.
1.His disease has progressed to where he can only use one cheek muscle which he communicates through.

2.Assisted suicide would be his only option, unless you know some creative way to off yourself using your left cheek.

There is no doubt it will progress further. Ifhe  wishes to commits suicide which he has stated could be an option. He WILL need assistance.

I can post the link if that would satisfy you.



Steven Hawking could off himself without assistance.  He could simply stop eating and drinking.  He could fire those who help him with those activities.  Problem solved.

I still don't see a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide, AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19155954 - 11/18/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, I hate to bring it up, since it is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but as being a self proclaimed defence attorney, and having started a legal advice thread, you show basic, at best, ability to understand and counter opinions contradicting your own.



I see it quite differently.  I see you as having very limited ability to understand my position and properly focus any point so as to make it a valid counterpoint to my argument.  There are a lot of people in this thread and on this site who are simply unable to engage in logical debate at a competent level.  I generally ignore such people's posts since there's little hope of either of us actually getting anything meaningful out of a discussion.

I suspect you are one of those people.




Okay, if such were true, and you ignored my post because it was incompetent, you should then at least have a basic understanding of my views, otherwise how are you to know they are incompetent and unworthy of a reply?

After all, how can you claim a viewpoint has no logical reasoning unless you understand it?

Therefor, you should be able to state my views, as proof of your comprehension of my views.

So far, you have done nothing except respond to the most basic of counters to your views, and have failed to respond to any in depth counter points to your own argument.

So please, elaborate on your opinion of my views, which you have yet to do.

Also, you are the party that has yet to show any understanding of opposing views, why should I, or any other member lend any credence to your views, when you have yet to show comprehension of the views of others?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156002 - 11/18/13 06:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So far, you have done nothing except respond to the most basic of counters to your views, and have failed to respond to any in depth counter points to your own argument.


Because there haven't been any.
Quote:



So please, elaborate on your opinion of my views, which you have yet to do.




I pretty much disagree with your social benefit argument.  It's completely irrelevant to my position, of course, so I didn't address it above.  Since you asked my opinion of it, however, I'll give it:

Social benefit is not a reason to create a right...particularly a "human right."  The reason for this should be self-evident, but if it isn't, I'll help you figure it out. 

If benefit to society justifies defining a right, then detriment to society justifies negating a right.  The point of human rights is to make sure that society recognizes individual rights that people have regardless of how society might be affected by those rights.  Otherwise, human rights are nothing more than those things that society has deemed to be beneficial.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156034 - 11/18/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So far, you have done nothing except respond to the most basic of counters to your views, and have failed to respond to any in depth counter points to your own argument.


Because there haven't been any.
Quote:



So please, elaborate on your opinion of my views, which you have yet to do.




I pretty much disagree with your social benefit argument.  It's completely irrelevant to my position, of course, so I didn't address it above.  Since you asked my opinion of it, however, I'll give it:

Social benefit is not a reason to create a right...particularly a "human right."  The reason for this should be self-evident, but if it isn't, I'll help you figure it out. 

If benefit to society justifies defining a right, then detriment to society justifies negating a right.  The point of human rights is to make sure that society recognizes individual rights that people have regardless of how society might be affected by those rights.  Otherwise, human rights are nothing more than those things that society has deemed to be beneficial.





Since your argument eludes to inherent human rights, suicide not being one of them, please elaborate on inherent human rights. And why they are inherent over the right to die.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156054 - 11/18/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Also, stating that you disagree with an opinion, without actually clarifying why is not appropriate to the level of debate expected of a lawyer. Or anyone expecting to be taken seriously to be more concise.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156079 - 11/18/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, stating that you disagree with an opinion, without actually clarifying why is not appropriate to the level of debate expected of a lawyer. Or anyone expecting to be taken seriously to be more concise.



Nuh-uh


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19156088 - 11/18/13 06:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Enlil ive got a question for you.

Who do you think is sovereign over my life?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156107 - 11/18/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Stop using strawman arguments.  I didn't make this thread about human rights, the OP did, and I never said that suicide isn't/shouldn't be a human right.  On the contrary, I have clearly said that since suicide is an option for everyone, it is a human right regardless of how the law or society chooses to treat it.

I said that dying without pain isn't a human right.  I also said that having someone help you die without pain shouldn't be one.  Having someone help you with ANYTHING shouldn't be a human right.  If it were, then others would not have the right to refuse to help.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156120 - 11/18/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:
Also, stating that you disagree with an opinion, without actually clarifying why is not appropriate to the level of debate expected of a lawyer. Or anyone expecting to be taken seriously to be more concise.



Your reading comprehension sucks, dude...I told you why I disagree with your nonsense argument:

Quote:

Enlil said:

If benefit to society justifies defining a right, then detriment to society justifies negating a right.  The point of human rights is to make sure that society recognizes individual rights that people have regardless of how society might be affected by those rights.  Otherwise, human rights are nothing more than those things that society has deemed to be beneficial.




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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19156126 - 11/18/13 06:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NWlight said:


Who do you think is sovereign over my life?



You are.  You can end it at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156144 - 11/18/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My mom recently successfully commited suicide...

she was going for treatment, and it wasn't working...we found a diary and it turns out she had been suffering for over 30 years with it...

while we were in the hospital watching the machines keep her alive i could tell she was gone

we came home to rest and talk about things and my sister asked me what I wanted because they had all these fantastical ideas on how to 'bring her out of the state she was in' and save her

I said that I just wanted her to be happy and then the fucking phone rang SO loud...it was the hospital telling us to come back...

long story short she left us...that being said if someone wants to be dead who are we to tell them that they should stay...help should be offered and whatnot, but if it is all falling on deaf ears there is just no talking to them

been going to a group monthly dealing with loss and it is all eerily similar...we never saw it coming or we talked and pleaded with them but...

they are often caught in a moment of weakness and if they have the devices they will be successful...i could talk forever on the subject i bet..


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156166 - 11/18/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You have yet to refute opposing arguments. Still waiting. My level of interest in this thread is waning due to you failing to make any valid arguments in which you can actually defend.

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide. :popcorn:


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156189 - 11/18/13 06:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

NWlight said:


Who do you think is sovereign over my life?



You are.  You can end it at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all.



I'm getting the impression that people are mis-interpreting your arguments then.

I don't see what the big deal is.  How are people saying that you have a right to assisted suicide :lol:

Follow up question though, do you think assisted suicide should be legal?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156196 - 11/18/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't care about the societal cost of suicide, and I never made any arguments about it.  What the fuck are you even talking about?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Jack yo Self foo]
    #19156201 - 11/18/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You have yet to refute opposing arguments. Still waiting. My level of interest in this thread is waning due to you failing to make any valid arguments in which you can actually defend.

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide. :popcorn:
Quote:

jacksonian said:
My mom recently successfully commited suicide...

she was going for treatment, and it wasn't working...we found a diary and it turns out she had been suffering for over 30 years with it...

while we were in the hospital watching the machines keep her alive i could tell she was gone

we came home to rest and talk about things and my sister asked me what I wanted because they had all these fantastical ideas on how to 'bring her out of the state she was in' and save her

I said that I just wanted her to be happy and then the fucking phone rang SO loud...it was the hospital telling us to come back...

long story short she left us...that being said if someone wants to be dead who are we to tell them that they should stay...help should be offered and whatnot, but if it is all falling on deaf ears there is just no talking to them

been going to a group monthly dealing with loss and it is all eerily similar...we never saw it coming or we talked and pleaded with them but...

they are often caught in a moment of weakness and if they have the devices they will be successful...i could talk forever on the subject i bet..





Sorry for your loss. For the sake of furthering the discussion in this thread. Could you comment on the help your mother received before committing suicide?

I strongly believe that social stigma is the reason many people suffer without receiving due to the perceived notion that suicidal thoughts are seen as "weak".

Also, do you believe that your mother could have been helped if help was provided to her much much earlier? Apologies if you care not to answer.

I think however, your mother's situation is illustration to the fact that people who are suicidal have felt so for some time, and the feeling is quite entrenched. And that suicide isn't a random unplanned move.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: NWlight]
    #19156214 - 11/18/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NWlight said:

I don't see what the big deal is.  How are people saying that you have a right to assisted suicide :lol:

Follow up question though, do you think assisted suicide should be legal?



No, and for the reason I stated before.  Whatever system is put in place to make sure that the person gives informed consent will be imperfect.  It will be susceptible to human manipulation and exploitation.  Ultimately, some people will not be able to get assistance despite giving informed consent, and others will be killed without giving informed consent.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156224 - 11/18/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:

Stephen Hawking was used as an example earlier, so i'll use him as an example.
1.His disease has progressed to where he can only use one cheek muscle which he communicates through.

2.Assisted suicide would be his only option, unless you know some creative way to off yourself using your left cheek.

There is no doubt it will progress further. Ifhe  wishes to commits suicide which he has stated could be an option. He WILL need assistance.

I can post the link if that would satisfy you.



Steven Hawking could off himself without assistance.  He could simply stop eating and drinking.  He could fire those who help him with those activities.  Problem solved.

I still don't see a set of facts where:

1. A person can consent to suicide, AND
2. He/she cannot make it happen without assistance.




morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156226 - 11/18/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide.




Keep repeating yourself dude...maybe you'll get different answer the second or third time.  I've no opinion about societal cost of suicide.  I couldn't care less about it.  Whatever the cost is, it is.  People are going to kill themselves regardless of those costs.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19156238 - 11/18/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

billy jowl said:

morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.



Nope...try again.  If the patient can communicate and is competent to give consent to suicide, then he is competent to order his doctors to stop treating and feeding him.  Problem solved.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156285 - 11/18/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

So please, elaborate on your views of the societal cost of suicide.




Keep repeating yourself dude...maybe you'll get different answer the second or third time.  I've no opinion about societal cost of suicide.  I couldn't care less about it.  Whatever the cost is, it is.  People are going to kill themselves regardless of those costs.





Quit wasting bandwidth and refute arguments or just shut up already.

Your views have already be summarized as an inability on your part to defend against opposing views with your stance of "i dont care."

If you don't care about the views and opinions related to the thread, then why are you posting at all?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156328 - 11/18/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't care about YOUR views...largely because they are an irrelevant foray into "societal cost" bullshit.  I do care about the question of whether or not suicide clinics should exist, and the argument that such clinics would serve to reduce the societal cost of suicide is absurd.  Whatever the societal cost of suicide, it is peanuts compared to the cost of even a single wrongly "suicided" person.

My argument is that suicide clinics can and will inevitably lead to some people being killed without giving informed consent.  If I'm correct, it doesn't matter how much cost to society was saved by the clinic because the savings are offset by the dire cost of a mistake. 

That's why your societal cost argument isn't a counterpoint at all.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156333 - 11/18/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:

morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.



Nope...try again.  If the patient can communicate and is competent to give consent to suicide, then he is competent to order his doctors to stop treating and feeding him.  Problem solved.




well youare right you can not survive without food. The question is how can we be so inhumane in instances such as these. I see youcare  very much for dogs.
We never would do such a thing to a dog under veternarian care. Seems hypocritical to hold such a view. You dont hold the same view concerning dogs do you?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19156359 - 11/18/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The difference between dogs and humans is one of competence, though.  Dogs are not capable of reasoning their way through such things, so humans have to make decisions for the dog in the dog's best interest.  Hopefully, we make the right call most of the time.

A human can always choose to die....if he can choose anything.  I would never take that choice away from someone, which is why I am against suicide clinics.  When they work properly, they will help people do what they could have done by themselves with a bit less pain.  When things go wrong, however, someone dies who didn't really want to die or didn't really understand what they were doing.

If even one of these errors occurs, that makes the entire endeavor a net loss for all of us.  Can you guarantee that you can come up with a system that no one will ever manipulate for the purpose of killing someone without their consent?  If so, I'd love to see the plan.  If not, I'd rather just leave the choice and the responsibility to the individual.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156370 - 11/18/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

billy jowl said:

morris code


I think this is a instance where assistance is necessary.



Nope...try again.  If the patient can communicate and is competent to give consent to suicide, then he is competent to order his doctors to stop treating and feeding him.  Problem solved.




That's cold bro, why do we use opiates to alleviate pain then? Just suffer through that shit.

Also, people do die painlessly, shouldn't we all have this right?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156381 - 11/18/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
Also, people do die painlessly, shouldn't we all have this right?



You chose your name well...you are a dreamer...

We don't all have the OPTION of dying painlessly...so we certainly don't have the right.  Death comes to most of us at a time and in a manner not of our choosing.  To say we have the right to control that is nonsensical when reality clearly dictates otherwise.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156408 - 11/18/13 07:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jacksonian said:
My mom recently successfully commited suicide...

she was going for treatment, and it wasn't working...we found a diary and it turns out she had been suffering for over 30 years with it...

while we were in the hospital watching the machines keep her alive i could tell she was gone

we came home to rest and talk about things and my sister asked me what I wanted because they had all these fantastical ideas on how to 'bring her out of the state she was in' and save her

I said that I just wanted her to be happy and then the fucking phone rang SO loud...it was the hospital telling us to come back...

long story short she left us...that being said if someone wants to be dead who are we to tell them that they should stay...help should be offered and whatnot, but if it is all falling on deaf ears there is just no talking to them

been going to a group monthly dealing with loss and it is all eerily similar...we never saw it coming or we talked and pleaded with them but...

they are often caught in a moment of weakness and if they have the devices they will be successful...i could talk forever on the subject i bet..





Sorry for your loss. For the sake of furthering the discussion in this thread. Could you comment on the help your mother received before committing suicide?

I strongly believe that social stigma is the reason many people suffer without receiving due to the perceived notion that suicidal thoughts are seen as "weak".

Also, do you believe that your mother could have been helped if help was provided to her much much earlier? Apologies if you care not to answer.

I think however, your mother's situation is illustration to the fact that people who are suicidal have felt so for some time, and the feeling is quite entrenched. And that suicide isn't a random unplanned move.





who is to say that she would have been better with help...

my sister had just gotten married and i had my son which was her first grandchild...

it was nuts...she had been gong to different docs and got ahold of ALOT of meds...toook them all

the stigma of sucicide is more prevelant with those that survive it i think...my family for example

she chose suicide so the social stigma of suicide was not even present in her mind i believe


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156475 - 11/18/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:


We don't all have the OPTION of dying painlessly...so we certainly don't have the right.  Death comes to most of us at a time and in a manner not of our choosing.  To say we have the right to control that is nonsensical when reality clearly dictates otherwise.




its not a question of whether we have the right more than it is a question of is it right

been trying to see your side and i just don't


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156485 - 11/18/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I dont believe there should be "suicide clinics" who in  there right mind would? I do believe there shouldnt be a across the board ban on assisted suicide though. There could be systems, protocol and very specific criteria to follow in assisting suicide. It's a complex issue, but with proper guidlines in place it can be done without haveing suicide clinics in every strip mall. I think it's barbaric for needless suffering in some instances. With proper regulations. It can and should be legal, and in the future it more than likely will.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Jack yo Self foo]
    #19156489 - 11/18/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

suicide is all around us...you have people who choose to take people with them even

i think these are very different situations though..there is something much deeper at the root of those types of suicide

to say that one who does this act is thinking they are weak is oobvious..they feel they are not good enough or that they can't cope with life as they have come to know it

should they have the right to say enough is enough????? well......after a certain period of time and enough intervention...yes i think so

like i said before there is just no getting through to some people


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Jack yo Self foo]
    #19156501 - 11/18/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i'll take that one further....what if these suicidal types that take people with them had the option to go to a 'death house' and end thier pain or anguish...

would that keep them from lashing out in the manner that some o fthese people do? or is this thier way of trying expose something deeper?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: billy jowl]
    #19156502 - 11/18/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156518 - 11/18/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.




agreed..there have to be checks and balances

but this type of action will never even be put to paper...never


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156537 - 11/18/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

KrishnaDreamer said:
Also, people do die painlessly, shouldn't we all have this right?



You chose your name well...you are a dreamer...

We don't all have the OPTION of dying painlessly...so we certainly don't have the right.  Death comes to most of us at a time and in a manner not of our choosing.  To say we have the right to control that is nonsensical when reality clearly dictates otherwise.




I never said we had the option to, but that people do, and that shouldn't we have the same opportunity? Do you believe in "pulling the plug" on people? My grandmother had a stroke a while back and couldn't communicate, it was clear that enough of her brain was damaged that she wasn't there anymore; your view is that we should've left my grandmother to starve to death? (I'm not exactly sure how she died but it definitely wasn't a "natural" death.).

Do you know what an advanced directive is?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156550 - 11/18/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Of course I do.  Killing someone and letting them die aren't even close to the same thing.

Again, we don't have a choice how/when we die.  We don't have a choice of whether or not it will be painful.  Claiming to have a right to not have a painful death is like claiming to have a right not to ever be sad.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156557 - 11/18/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.




finally :nodofunderstanding:


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156558 - 11/18/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Um... I'm pretty sure someone "killed" my grandmother.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156560 - 11/18/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

She had a stroke, dude...


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156570 - 11/18/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly, but she was still alive. We weren't going to let her starve to death, therefore assisted suicide. I thought you were against assisted suicide.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156576 - 11/18/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Removing life support isn't assisted suicide.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156586 - 11/18/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

She wasn't on life support... She could breath on her own and everything, not eat though, obviously. She even stayed at her own home, in her own bed.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156596 - 11/18/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Again, letting someone die isn't the same as assisted suicide.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19156601 - 11/18/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'd be okay with assisted suicide if there were strict criteria that required psychological evaluation and judicial review beforehand.





Wow, so you agree with many users previous sentiments that you have disregarded prior.

It is a good thing youve read this thread and are informed in the participating members views.:elmo:

Don't think anyone here has claimed to support a clinic where someone just walks in and doctors kill them.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos] * 1
    #19156613 - 11/18/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

Don't think anyone here has claimed to support a clinic where someone just walks in and doctors kill them.



That was the original question in the OP:

Quote:

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die?




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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KrishnaDreamer]
    #19156624 - 11/18/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i think using psychedelics for a massive perspective overhaul should be a right.

probably a lot fewer people will want to die post-trip


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19156652 - 11/18/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

EdibleStereos said:

Don't think anyone here has claimed to support a clinic where someone just walks in and doctors kill them.



That was the original question in the OP:

Quote:

Do you think suicide clinics should be set up where any adult of legal age can walk in and painlessly die?








Yeah, and the discussion evolved into a more complex discussion. Because you know, conversations tend to do that. Amazing isnt it? :elmo:


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: EdibleStereos]
    #19156679 - 11/18/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Which is why I disregarded your feeble attempts at counterpoint.  They didn't address my position which was that suicide clinics are a bad idea and shouldn't be legal.

There is a huge difference between having an option for assisted suicide under limited circumstances with proper checks and balances and having assisted suicide be a right.  The former I can get behind.  The latter I can't.

You just can't/don't read carefully enough to understand a nuanced position.  It's all either black or white to you.  I see no further point in trying to discuss this topic, or any topic, with you.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19157002 - 11/18/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey guys, interesting topic.  Especially since I've been considering suicide for a while now. 

I agree with Enlil pretty much.  Everyone already has the right to suicide.  However, actually successfully committing suicide is quite hard.  You have the odds stacked against you.  Only like 1 in 22 people who attempt suicide succeed.  And committing suicide peacefully/painlessly is near impossible for most people as they don't have access to the tools to accomplish that.

Also if you try and fail you are pretty screwed.  You'll lose your rights to a firearm.  You'll be billed a good chunk of change from the emergency room.  You might end up permanently disabled.  I.E. a quadriplegic or vegetable, etc...  Also your family won't view you the same way again.  They'll always be scared you'll do something crazy.

Also some make the argument that suicide is de facto illegal.  Meaning, if you attempt suicide and fail you're 5150'd and locked in a psych ward for at least 3 days.  Some argue psych wards are worse than prison. 

Also the most lethal methods are firearms and hanging.  Firearm suicides are incredibly gory and f'ed up.  Especially horrible if they're your family member or friend.  Personally I'm angry that I can't get access to a cocktail of drugs that will for sure 100% kill me painlessly.

I don't really want to kill myself but my brain seems to be permanently out of wack and nothing has really helped.  I've been to all kinds of specialists.  However, I continue living because I'm too big of a pussy to actually kill myself.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19158701 - 11/19/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It should be a human right to reject the quality of life and being forced into its circumstances. Maybe instead of trying to control suicides we could make people not want to kill themselves as much hmm?


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Adustus]
    #19158706 - 11/19/13 08:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Besides you only break the law when you succeed. And at that point what are they gonna do? lol. An attempt only allows them to hospitalize you against your will. So be secretive and be certain of success or you have alot of shit to deal with. I know how the whole ordeal unfolds. Always a dead end.


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19158858 - 11/19/13 09:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, in a controlled enviroment.

Because euthanasia in a controlled enviroment with personal acquintances (if any) leaves less of a mess. Thereafter there is no scene to be cleaned as the body can be properly disposed of or immediately dispensed to scientific research. I feel atleast a formal goodbye should be in place before leaving.

I see no reason why not neither do I see a reason to unless:
-Untreatable chronic diseases coupled with pain.
-Extreme mental anguish due to physical harm (eg. Olympic sprinter losing a leg, passionate craftsman loses his fingers, musician gets hit in the head and loses his motor skills to go on, ...)

I know that's not a broad spectrum but in the end I feel it doesn't matter whatever the reason you have we just need to solve this:


So, yes I also support clinics where you can just walk into and get it over with. Wouldn't want to see these booths privatized, rather a public service that is fully automated.


Edited by Beanhead (11/19/13 11:16 AM)


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Re: Should suicide be a human right? [Re: Enlil]
    #19159202 - 11/19/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't care about YOUR views...largely because they are an irrelevant foray into "societal cost" bullshit.  I do care about the question of whether or not suicide clinics should exist, and the argument that such clinics would serve to reduce the societal cost of suicide is absurd.  Whatever the societal cost of suicide, it is peanuts compared to the cost of even a single wrongly "suicided" person.

My argument is that suicide clinics can and will inevitably lead to some people being killed without giving informed consent.  If I'm correct, it doesn't matter how much cost to society was saved by the clinic because the savings are offset by the dire cost of a mistake. 

That's why your societal cost argument isn't a counterpoint at all.






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