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Alternativejamb


Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata?
#19145525 - 11/16/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good day,
Could you please help me with this one? I found it in the field where I usually observe P. semilanceata. As you'll see from the description and pictures below, most of the characteristics - except color - match those of P. semilanceata.
My hunch is it's sterile P. semilanceata. I could only find two spores in a crush mount. As you can see in the pictures below, the two spores don't look like they're P. semilanceata spores. I guess, however, that these came into the slide through the blade I used to make cross-sections of other mushrooms, and the last one I worked with was Panaeolus acuminatus (whose spores look exactly like those in the pictures below). Other micro-characteristics seem to match P. semilanceata. It also has a separable gelatinous pellicle (see pictures below).
Here are the pictures:
Full body:

Gills:

Cap:

Cap (30 min. later)

For comparison:
  
Three hours later (in white background):
Full body:

Gills:

Cap:

Attachment:

Pellicle:
 
24 hours later:
 
For comparison:
 
Micro
Spore 1
 
Same spore (I attempted to turn it slightly by pressing the cover with the objective)
 
Spore 2

I guess these are underdeveloped basidia (?)
 
Cheilocystidia (?)
 
Forked
 
I also thought I should report these (I have no clue what is this - it could be exogenous, but I tried to make a really clean slide)
 
Here's a description from my notes: 1.Cap: 1.0 x 1.0 cm; obtusely conic; umbonate; in-curved and striated margin; moist and sticky; separable gelatinous pellicle (see pictures above); light brown/light orange at the centre, white at the margin; hygrophanous (see pictures above); thick; seems to stain blue (though not completely sure, see pictures above). 2.Gills: adnexed; close/subdistant; white; seemed to stain blue while drying. 3.Stalk: central; 9.0 x 0.2; equal; flexuous; dry; white at the top, light brown/brown at the middle and lower parts; pliable; missing. 4.Veil: no partial (and universal) veil. 5.Spores (based on the two spores shown in the pictures above); Size: 13 x 8; fusiform/eliptical/lemon shaped; smooth; large germ pore. 6.Habit and Habitat: on the ground (soil) in a wild hilly field surrounded by a forest; grouping: single/groups. 7.Other: Aarhus, Denmark; 2 November 2013. Cheilocystidia seems lageniform and has flexuous neck; some forked.
Let me know if you need any further details. Tomorrow, I'm passing the same place (there are quite a few alike fruit bodies). I could do a more detailed microscopy as well.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,312
Last seen: 3 days, 12 hours
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The P. semilanceataa with white gills is not sterile, it is just young.
The blue fiber is likely part of your clothes.
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,675
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 8 hours, 54 minutes
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: The P. semilanceataa with white gills is not sterile, it is just young.
In that respect I'd say it is still of a very unusual color for this species.
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★★★★★
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Alternativejamb


Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#19148606 - 11/17/13 06:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks a lot for your replies.
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
The blue fiber is likely part of your clothes.
Most likely.
Quote:
Anglerfish said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: The P. semilanceataa with white gills is not sterile, it is just young.
In that respect I'd say it is still of a very unusual color for this species.
I'm not sure I'm fully convinced that it's just young P. semilanceata. I've just collected seven individuals from the same place that look very similar to the one above. I'll upload pictures as soon as I get back from the field.
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,675
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 8 hours, 54 minutes
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But the microscopy is of the pale specimen, right? Maybe a semi-sterile semi? 
Or maybe some genetic mutation, since there were several with similar features. Should be interesting to know if they grew from the same mycelium as the "normal" ones, or if it is entirely separate.
It would be a treat if one could possibly monitor wild mycelial growth of this species. Or any species of mushroom, for that matter...
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themushie
New to the table



Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 258
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#19149188 - 11/17/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree but I don't think mycium cross threads
-------------------- Hi i recently become interested in mycologist after a good trip on AMT which changed my life, I started Studying mushrooms ins and outs from where they originate from back to the aztecs an mayans. now the hunt begins I live in the UK in liverpool where im not sure if im going to find many if any at all BUT we do have a few fields with horses on and the rain has been bad with the warmth im expecting to see some really early... its june and I think they are going to show up Any guidance any help feel free to email me or ask me questions at davidj156@hotmail.com
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Alternativejamb


Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#19150083 - 11/17/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here are the pictures (something is wrong with rotation)
   
  
For comparison(two [somewhat dry] "normal" on the left)
  
2 hours later (using flash)
  
Among the immature ("normal") P. semilanceata I found in the same field, none had such white gills. Yes, they weren't brown/purplish, but not completely white (as those in the pictures).
Gill color is just one thing. What's really untypical is this orange/whitish cap color. Of course, cap color depends on spores, but none of the P. semilanceata I've seen (mature or immature) in this field had such caps.
Also, these untypical P. semilanceata seem to have had stopped maturing. I noticed them two weeks ago (I didn't pick them, as I was curious to see their "normal" shape). Today they looked just like two weeks ago (except that some started rotting).
To me, they look like "sterile" P. semilanceata presented here: http://www.shroomery.org/12510/Psilocybe-semilanceata (Though, I don't know who's the author of this and how reliable is that)
Quote:
Anglerfish said: But the microscopy is of the pale specimen, right? Maybe a semi-sterile semi? 
Or maybe some genetic mutation, since there were several with similar features. Should be interesting to know if they grew from the same mycelium as the "normal" ones, or if it is entirely separate.
It would be a treat if one could possibly monitor wild mycelial growth of this species. Or any species of mushroom, for that matter...
Microscopy is of the pale specimen. I didn't have much time today, but I managed to microscope some of the new ones as well. In two of the crush mounts I found solitary spores that were shaped like P. semilanceata spores (I could make pictures of spores if there's a need).
There were no "normal" P. semilanceata around (the closest was some 15 meters away). All of the untypical ones were growing in an area of approx. one square meter. Though, one week ago, I found one some 30 meters away. I thought it was something else so didn't upload the pictures in the previous message. Now, however, I think it looks quite similar to the other untypical P. semilanceata:
 
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,675
Loc: Norvegr
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Those are some cool finds! 
Denmark or Lithuania?
I'm guessing there's some "weak genes" in that batch, that somehow prevents proper production of spores.
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★★★★★
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jet li
The One



Registered: 07/09/07
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#19150133 - 11/17/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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knarkkorven
Entheoholic


Registered: 06/22/05
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Loc: Sweden
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: jet li]
#19152768 - 11/18/13 02:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It has nothing to do with maturity. Those will not get darker gills when they age. Often you find a bunch of them in the same spot, obviously from the same mycelium, in various degree of maturity. Every Sporeless/sterile/albino/whatever, mushroom has this pale yellow/orange color due to the lack of purplebrown spores. Like I said, it has nothing to do with maturity. Young semilanceata which will develop spores will have a more gray color even when they are young enough to have a partial veil.
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,675
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 8 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: knarkkorven]
#19152876 - 11/18/13 05:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
knarkkorven said: It has nothing to do with maturity. Those will not get darker gills when they age. Often you find a bunch of them in the same spot, obviously from the same mycelium, in various degree of maturity. Every Sporeless/sterile/albino/whatever, mushroom has this pale yellow/orange color due to the lack of purplebrown spores. Like I said, it has nothing to do with maturity. Young semilanceata which will develop spores will have a more gray color even when they are young enough to have a partial veil.
My observations are similar. Interesting though is the presence of the spore in the micrograph. Probably due to very low production, and maybe not all "sterile" ones are fully sterile.
--------------------
★★★★★
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Alternativejamb


Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: Anglerfish]
#19152938 - 11/18/13 06:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anglerfish said: Those are some cool finds! 
Denmark or Lithuania?
I'm guessing there's some "weak genes" in that batch, that somehow prevents proper production of spores.
Denmark (Midtjylland)
Quote:
Anglerfish said:
Quote:
knarkkorven said: It has nothing to do with maturity. Those will not get darker gills when they age. Often you find a bunch of them in the same spot, obviously from the same mycelium, in various degree of maturity. Every Sporeless/sterile/albino/whatever, mushroom has this pale yellow/orange color due to the lack of purplebrown spores. Like I said, it has nothing to do with maturity. Young semilanceata which will develop spores will have a more gray color even when they are young enough to have a partial veil.
My observations are similar. Interesting though is the presence of the spore in the micrograph. Probably due to very low production, and maybe not all "sterile" ones are fully sterile.
I meant morphology - size and shape of the fruit bodies did not seem to change over the course of two weeks. Stalks remained of approximately same length and caps were not any more "open" that they were two weeks ago (this, however, should be taken with some degree of skepticism,as they appeared to me unchanged - I should have taken pictures).
I don't know how uncommon they are, but I looked at the threads here, and found several reports of such orange/whitish fruits.
See kjazz message here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18698454/fpart/132/vc/1
Umbramush and knarkkorven, himself, here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16958101
It's somewhat difficult to find and photograph spores in such specimens, but I'll give it a shot during the weekend and upload pictures if I find anything.
Thank you all for the input!
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cbub
it


Registered: 10/17/10
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For the record, I find several of these 'sterile' ones every year. They don't leave a spore print.
-------------------- It's fine.
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Alternativejamb


Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: cbub]
#19236834 - 12/06/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Apologies fur such a delay.
First try to find the spores was unsuccessful. Actually, I found three scattered spores, but they all looked completely different from each other, which obviously means that I didn't clean my tools properly:)
Second try was also unsuccessful - when I got everything ready I understood that I don't have a single slide left (so I had to order them, and that took some time).
Anyway, today I made a super clean mount of just one gill and found quite a few (scattered) spores.
x400, 1 piece of micrometer = 2.5 um
  
x1000, 1 piece of micrometer = 1 um
  
They clearly look like P. semilanceata spores (though somewhat too small); I guess then these specimens were not 100% sterile, or as Anglerfish said above, they were "semi-sterile."
(If that's indeed true) It's rather interesting that it's not a dichotomy (sterile/non-sterile).
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pinkie91
Stranger
Registered: 07/05/20
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I can see this is a old post but did you ever find out of it was sterile liberty caps or if it was something else??
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MentalPariah
Pariah of my mind


Registered: 03/18/18
Posts: 3,903
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Re: Need ID - sterile P. semilanceata? [Re: pinkie91]
#26870312 - 08/08/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinkie91 said: I can see this is a old post but did you ever find out of it was sterile liberty caps or if it was something else?? 
Dude, OP hasn't been seen in over a year and this is a 6yo post.... if you read through the whole thing they were identified as ps. Semilanceata, the discussion was about gill color. Please don't necropost here.
-------------------- Whoever appeals to the law against his Fellow man is either a fool or a coward Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both For a wounded man shall say to his assailant If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven Such is the rule of honor
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