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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19152247 - 11/17/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

nobody carries me wherever they go.  im a cray motherfucker.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19152258 - 11/17/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I never said climate change or global warming wasn't real.  I just said I haven't seen valid statistical data that is correlated with all variables that affect climate change.

So until someone shits some valid statistics AND disproves any other hypothesis that could account for 'global warming' its just a hypothesis and the reason I say this is for one reason:

It isn't worth the country going broke and being regulated to death because of someones hypothesis.

Global Climate change/global warming et. al. needs serious scientific debate.  What it doesn't need is people slamming their assholes shut and saying "The Debate is Over' anyone who doesn't believe it is a moron."



QFT

Starfire might be politically charged in his opinions, and may cause immense butthurt, but there is nothing about this post that isn't true.


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OfflineSchmendrick
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19152270 - 11/17/13 10:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Schmendrick said:
I don't normally go into full defense mode for other people, but I think akira_akuma is an intelligent, swell guy who has been vastly misinterpreted in this thread.  He does not deny climate change, he just holds the opinion that there is no way to link any specific event to climate change directly;  an opinion which I also hold, and which is backed up by science.  Give him a break for fucks sake.  If you want to attack someone, attack Starfire, who is displaying a staggering amount of willful ignorance and bias.

That is all.





Why is my position biased?  I just said I want to see the evidence.  Is that willful ignorance?  I'll be glad to jump on the man-made global warming bandwagon when I see it.

You and Mush have called me a liar, stupid, ignorant. biased, 'a denier,' a nut job, etc. in this thread merely for requesting properly conducted scientific studies.  :shrug:




I fully understand the postion of requiring evidence to change your opinion;  it is the only intelligent course to take after all; nobody should accept anything at face value without doing their own research, EVER.  I just have a problem believing that you have done much truly unbiased research, since there are so many studies and evidence pointing to man made climate change.

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you have simply not kept up on the state of the current scientific understanding regarding CO2 emissions and what they are doing to our planet.  After all, I am not infallible, and I often find myself apologizing for things that I say which, upon further research, I find to be wrong.  People often call me "fickle" or "uninformed" because I change my mind so much, but I am just trying to stay on the forefront of the current understanding of our world and the universe we live in. 

I don't know what whitepapers and research studies you have read recently, and again I find myself apologizing.. I apologize that I am not up to date on the status of your knowledge of climate change.  The only thing I can ask is that you really, truly set aside your preconceptions, go out and spend a few days or weeks hunting down the relevant current whitepapers and report back, after which we can compare notes intelligently. After this, if you still hold the view that Global Warming is a sham, then I promise I will take my own advise and do the same thing to make sure I am still up to date; but the last time I went through this exercise (with climate change in particular) was less than one month ago, and I do not feel as if the knowledge base has changed significantly enough for me to do it again quite yet.


Edited by Schmendrick (11/17/13 10:49 PM)


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Schmendrick]
    #19152283 - 11/17/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

seriously why is this thread not locked yet...


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #19152287 - 11/17/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Yeah, it doesn't fucking matter what you originally said, you are worthless to this thread.



having the opinion that you have to berate and insist that people need to accept that "global warming is a big issue that needs to be address lest the end of the world" or that they need to accept anything period... is assholeish, untrue and even more useless.

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
I'm not here to spread doom and gloom either. If I rained on your parade, that is on you. Seriously, look into Antarctica. It's gonna be like California come retirement time.



and to be clear, i never said you were, and i wasn't trying to be crass with you, originally. no one was. i was only asking you to look at what people were saying, and how that no one was being "a climate change denier". if anything, you had a few people being "climate change encouragers for truth". you were probably innocently parroting the opinions which you obviously share, and thinking that you were being personally attacked for having said opinion. really, people were just asking you to join the debate, and the debate in this thread (past you know the actual point of the thread) was whether or not we should have room for concern, and whether we have ENOUGH EVIDENCE to produce said concern. no one wanted to bash you or chutney or anyone, for your opinions, or for the facts.

Quote:

After this, if you still hold the view that Global Warming is a sham, then I promise I will take my own advise and do the same thing to make sure I am still up to date; but the last time I went through this exercise (with climate change in particular) was less than one month ago, and I do not feel as if the knowledge base has changed significantly enough for me to do it again quite yet.




just to be clear, and i could be wrong; but i'm pretty sure Starfire doesn't so much think that climate change is a sham, but just that he thinks that the notion of a climate change COULD BE USED in a particular "sham" he may or may not be concerned about.

it's not like he's saying "it's all sham of science!" i think he's just worried about people taking facts or non-facts and twisting them together to make people feel like they're "forced" to change... economically, to more specific.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19152289 - 11/17/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:okay:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineSchmendrick
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: schwarg]
    #19152296 - 11/17/13 10:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

schwarg said:
seriously why is this thread not locked yet...





Why would it be locked?  Nobody is being overtly nasty, no real flaming is going on.  Do you want it locked simply because you are incapable of keeping up with the conversation?  Seems pretty petty.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #19152304 - 11/17/13 10:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlindSophist said:
:okay:



:lahey: this is what happens when someone tries to cause dissent. innocent people get in the crossfire.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Schmendrick]
    #19152322 - 11/17/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Schmendrick said:


I fully understand the postion of requiring evidence to change your opinion;  it is the only intelligent course to take after all; nobody should accept anything at face value without doing their own research, EVER.  I just have a problem believing that you have done much truly unbiased research, since there are so many studies and evidence pointing to man made climate change.






I'm really not interested in disproving or proving it.  But you should understand, the burden of proof is on the people making the claim.  I do research all day so doing more to disprove someone else's claim is not worth the effort.

I have seen some studies, and what I've seen is inconclusive either way.  And even if there is global warming (man made) there are a lot of theories that suggest other causes for global warming.  They people that claim it is man made have to disprove those other theories.  And people studying to disprove man-made global warming would have to disprove the man-made aspect.  That's how it works.

In any event people like Al Gore hurt the agenda badly.  He has refused to debate any number of scientists, which just hardens their skepticism.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19152323 - 11/17/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

New analyses find evidence of human-caused climate change in half of the 12 extreme weather and climate events analyzed from 2012

Quote:

Hurricane Sandy Inundation Probability:

    The record-setting impacts of Sandy were largely attributable to the massive storm surge and resulting inundation from the onshore-directed storm path coincident with high tide. However, climate-change related increases in sea level have nearly doubled today’s annual probability of a Sandy-level flood recurrence as compared to 1950. Ongoing natural and human-induced forcing of sea level ensures that Sandy-level inundation events will occur more frequently in the future from storms with less intensity and lower storm surge than Sandy




--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineSchmendrick
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: starfire_xes] * 2
    #19152330 - 11/17/13 11:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Schmendrick said:


I fully understand the postion of requiring evidence to change your opinion;  it is the only intelligent course to take after all; nobody should accept anything at face value without doing their own research, EVER.  I just have a problem believing that you have done much truly unbiased research, since there are so many studies and evidence pointing to man made climate change.






I'm really not interested in disproving or proving it.  But you should understand, the burden of proof is on the people making the claim.  I do research all day so doing more to disprove someone else's claim is not worth the effort.

I have seen some studies, and what I've seen is inconclusive either way.  And even if there is global warming (man made) there are a lot of theories that suggest other causes for global warming.  They people that claim it is man made have to disprove those other theories.  And people studying to disprove man-made global warming would have to disprove the man-made aspect.  That's how it works.

In any event people like Al Gore hurt the agenda badly.  He has refused to debate any number of scientists, which just hardens their skepticism.  :shrug:





Well, I guess admitting that you are unwilling to do the required research to become informed on the subject at hand is at least a step in the right direction.  With further reflection, you may even decide that you are unqualified to have a real opinion on the subject.

It's nothing to be ashamed of.. there are many, MANY areas in which I am unqualified to comment.  The difference appears to be that I, in fact, generally refrain from commenting in such areas.


Edited by Schmendrick (11/17/13 11:04 PM)


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Schmendrick]
    #19152339 - 11/17/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Schmendrick said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Schmendrick said:


I fully understand the postion of requiring evidence to change your opinion;  it is the only intelligent course to take after all; nobody should accept anything at face value without doing their own research, EVER.  I just have a problem believing that you have done much truly unbiased research, since there are so many studies and evidence pointing to man made climate change.






I'm really not interested in disproving or proving it.  But you should understand, the burden of proof is on the people making the claim.  I do research all day so doing more to disprove someone else's claim is not worth the effort.

I have seen some studies, and what I've seen is inconclusive either way.  And even if there is global warming (man made) there are a lot of theories that suggest other causes for global warming.  They people that claim it is man made have to disprove those other theories.  And people studying to disprove man-made global warming would have to disprove the man-made aspect.  That's how it works.

In any event people like Al Gore hurt the agenda badly.  He has refused to debate any number of scientists, which just hardens their skepticism.  :shrug:





Well, I guess admitting that you are unwilling to do the required research to become informed on the subject at hand is at least a step in the right direction.  With further reflection, you may even decide that you are unqualified to have a real opinion on the subject.

It's nothing to be ashamed of.. there are many, MANY areas in which I am unqualified to comment.  The difference appears to be that I, in fact, generally refrain from commenting in such areas.





And your qualifications are?  I told you, the people making a claim are the ones that have to prove it. 


Yes, I was around in 1972 when some of the same people making the current global climate change arguments were insisting that the world was heading into an ice age. 


If they could be so wrong about that.......why should we put blind faith in their judgement?


--------------------
:smug: [/url][/url] 
:smirk: IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH    :smirk:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19152345 - 11/17/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I just love how evidence and substantiation of claims has nothing to do with the actual debate taking place here. :smilingpuppy:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Schmendrick] * 2
    #19152350 - 11/17/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You want to know why nobody is biting and coming in with pages of statistics and evidence in support of their claims? It because this is environmental science 101. The greenhouse effect, caused by an abundance of c02, which we have produced a shitton of in the last 100 years, causes the climate to change. For fucks sake, if you chop down a tree, you have affected the environment, and we chop down a lot of trees. Animals are going extinct because of our direct actions. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see the smog in the air and figure out that yea, we sure as hell aren't doing good things to the planet right now.

But rather than talk about fixing any of that nastiness, you've dragged on this ridiculous stupid argument for what 5 hours? All day?  20 pages of fucking nothing worth reading.

Nobody is producing evidence for you to misinterpret, deny, and ignore, because we don't need papers and statistics to know that burning a bunch of shit and trashing the planet is a bad idea.


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Invisibleschwarg
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Schmendrick]
    #19152363 - 11/17/13 11:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Schmendrick said:
Quote:

schwarg said:
seriously why is this thread not locked yet...





Why would it be locked?  Nobody is being overtly nasty, no real flaming is going on.  Do you want it locked simply because you are incapable of keeping up with the conversation?  Seems pretty petty.




Because it's basically 18 pages of off topic discussion. You guys should just make a Climate change debate thread. Some people might actually want to discuss the tornadoes that fucked shit up today in this thread but can't when it's buried under 2 pages of this every minute.


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OfflineSchmendrick
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19152364 - 11/17/13 11:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Schmendrick said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Schmendrick said:


I fully understand the postion of requiring evidence to change your opinion;  it is the only intelligent course to take after all; nobody should accept anything at face value without doing their own research, EVER.  I just have a problem believing that you have done much truly unbiased research, since there are so many studies and evidence pointing to man made climate change.






I'm really not interested in disproving or proving it.  But you should understand, the burden of proof is on the people making the claim.  I do research all day so doing more to disprove someone else's claim is not worth the effort.

I have seen some studies, and what I've seen is inconclusive either way.  And even if there is global warming (man made) there are a lot of theories that suggest other causes for global warming.  They people that claim it is man made have to disprove those other theories.  And people studying to disprove man-made global warming would have to disprove the man-made aspect.  That's how it works.

In any event people like Al Gore hurt the agenda badly.  He has refused to debate any number of scientists, which just hardens their skepticism.  :shrug:





Well, I guess admitting that you are unwilling to do the required research to become informed on the subject at hand is at least a step in the right direction.  With further reflection, you may even decide that you are unqualified to have a real opinion on the subject.

It's nothing to be ashamed of.. there are many, MANY areas in which I am unqualified to comment.  The difference appears to be that I, in fact, generally refrain from commenting in such areas.





And your qualifications are?  I told you, the people making a claim are the ones that have to prove it. 


Yes, I was around in 1972 when some of the same people making the current global climate change arguments were insisting that the world was heading into an ice age. 


If they could be so wrong about that.......why should we put blind faith in their judgement?




My qualifications are that I actually make an effort to be informed.  I readily admit that I do not have the necessary education to form an original opinion on the subject of climate change; but I am smart enough to recognize those who DO have the education, I defer to their expertise, and I have enough of a memory for facts and figures to effectively and accurately parrot their findings.

The difference between now and 1972 is that we have 41 years more technology, research and understanding of the physical world to work from.  In order to understand the difference between our knowledge then and our knowledge now, you have only to think of the state of technology in the early 70's compared to that of today;  The difference is staggering in absolutely all areas of life.  Stop being stuck on the past and holding grudges against people for being wrong 40 years ago and make a concerted effort to be up to date, then maybe we can all start having real, informed conversations about where to go from here.


Edited by Schmendrick (11/17/13 11:36 PM)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Lynnch]
    #19152369 - 11/17/13 11:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The pretenses are cute though, huh?

Unrelated to the climate debate: http://www.weather.com/video/building-destroyed-in-10-seconds-41281? some video of a house getting completely demolished by a big-ass wave.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Schmendrick]
    #19152372 - 11/17/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder what kind of mistakes starfire was making forty years ago. :aweohyou:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Lynnch]
    #19152377 - 11/17/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
You want to know why nobody is biting and coming in with pages of statistics and evidence in support of their claims? It because this is environmental science 101. The greenhouse effect, caused by an abundance of c02, which we have produced a shitton of in the last 100 years, causes the climate to change. For fucks sake, if you chop down a tree, you have affected the environment, and we chop down a lot of trees. Animals are going extinct because of our direct actions. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see the smog in the air and figure out that yea, we sure as hell aren't doing good things to the planet right now.

But rather than talk about fixing any of that nastiness, you've dragged on this ridiculous stupid argument for what 5 hours? All day?  20 pages of fucking nothing worth reading.

Nobody is producing evidence for you to misinterpret, deny, and ignore, because we don't need papers and statistics to know that burning a bunch of shit and trashing the planet is a bad idea.



also, to note, there are people on the job. unless this thread is about convincing everyone to start doing the same thing, to tirelessly save the planet; there is no reason for dissenters to have poked and prodded at this thread for so long.

PS:
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

Again, I made no assertion that extreme weather events can be reliably attributed to anthropogenic climate change. This would be a very difficult thing to prove, since there are so many factors that influence weather patterns beyond the scope of our measurements or understanding, but I keep my mind open to the possibility.




that's all anyone can say for certain^




Untrue. I don't know shit about meteorology but even I can tell you'd have to be a moron to discount the possibility that the aforementioned inescapable giant impact of humans on the climate would have certain implications for global weather patterns.

Would tsunamis, hurricanes, and tornadoes be occurring in the absence of human influence on climate? Certainly. Would they follow the same patterns? Hell no. Would they be more or less extreme without human influence on climate? I don't know. You don't know. There are undoubtedly people out there who can make better guesses than us, but if they expressed a position that made you uncomfortable you would plug your ears and whine about academic elitism, and that is why we won't be hearing their opinion in this particular venue.



see where Blindsophist tries to iterate, AGAIN, that he thinks people are denying that people have an effect on the weather.
Quote:

BlindSophist said:
And now with the self-contradictory appeal to authority with a statistics platitude that in no way addresses the "debate" in which I provide facts and information and you complain about it. This is such a fucking bust.



and here is Blindsophist confusing my argument (to show what effects other then the small percentile of C02 increase humans have on the weather and whether to be concerned immediately, past the primary concerns that academics are already mulling over) with someone else (someone who is actually denying that humans are influencing climate change; someone whom, in this thread at least, doesn't exist)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Are you guys seeing this weather report?? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #19152405 - 11/17/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dontknow said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
People that deny global warming are retarded.  The past two years the weather seems to have gotten more destructive.
This looks crazy though.



2 years doesn't represent a change in climate… Weather always changes, and it has always been destructive




First post I responded to.

The argument here is about the fact that humans are contributing to significant changes in the climate that furthermore contribute to worse natural disasters. Human activities that pump up the atmosphere with carbon and light-absorbing aersols in fact heats up the atmosphere, resulting in greater risk of highly destructive wildfires and storms. There are people who acknowledge this, and people who deny it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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