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OfflineConfused2289
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Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness
    #19148441 - 11/17/13 04:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

As a description of my mushroom trips, they tend to lack visuals unless I'm taking 5+. Last year back when I was taking massive doses with syrian rue I discovered a state of pure confusion, fear, and discomfort. It arose because of belief. So I might find myself believing that I destroyed the entire world, that I died, that I tortured myself and the world, that I was trapped in an eternity of discomfort, that I was a mad god, a bunch of different things.

But this state isn't necessarily dependent upon belief. It just was most of the time. My last couple trips produced this same fear, discomfort, and uncalmness. I actually don't think its avoidable. Back when I first encountered it I encountered it with a free-thinking mind willing to experience the madness of a trip, and I found a state of delusional torture. So when it occurs now I just focus on my breath until it passes or until I find the will to fight against it, via willfulness to make the world happy, not suffering, etc.

I've encountered the same fear while not tripping and overcame it via letting go of my self. The problem truly is that to let go to that extent means to let go of being a "good" person. Which was what I did when not tripping. It's like jumping off of a cliff. I seem to have run into this wall in a trip where the only way to move beyond is to remove my conception of right and wrong. Of course I cling to that which is right. Actually, I don't think tripping is the place to let go of right and wrong. That is for meditation a calmer state where such a thing doesn't cause confusion, erratic behavior, and or a case of "real" harmful action.

Actually, I guess I answered my question, if I had one. Whatever I found in my trip shouldn't be overcome through a trip. I should understand it through meditation. I would like to hear of anyone else's experience with this type of fear. A fear that arises as a sort of torturing madness, not so much that you fear a visual, but you pretty much are fear in an eternity of fear. Maybe you understand.

I should add that my trips are extremely pleasant and euphoric when not experiencing this state of fear.


Edited by Confused2289 (11/17/13 04:32 AM)


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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19149312 - 11/17/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Some trips are all good and sometimes they aren't. I can tell you want to attribute the fear to something.  Maybe your intentions weren't pure or you haven't been as good of a person as you think you should.  Certainly these things will effect your trip. I don't have to tell you that your mindset makes the trip. But is it really possible to always have pure positive thoughts all of the time? Maybe that's what enlightenment is but if so I have yet to meet someone like that. It all boils down to the fact that these drugs aren't all fun and games. Tryptamines especially feel like raw primal fear is always right around the corner.  Have you tried mescaline or lsd yet?


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OfflineConfused2289
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: searching]
    #19150646 - 11/17/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Certainly I am not as "good" as one ought to be. Truly though the "bad" things about me are quite trivial at this point, trivial in view of the world. Even so, they aren't trivial to me, which is probably what matters.

A little off topic, I don't think enlightenment is understood as pure positive thoughts in Theravada Buddhism. It is apparently the end of suffering, the end of the underlying tendencies towards greed, hatred, and delusion, the complete understanding of suffering, not-selfness, and impermanence. As far as Buddhist teachers go, there have been a few that have tried to get across the point that the impulses that are characterized by greed, hatred, and delusion never cease, but that which holds to them and causes their proliferation does.

But of course that is just enlightenment in the case of Theravada Buddhism. Enlightenment has grown into a much bigger idea in the world today.

Anyway, you might be right that this fear is caused by my failings. I know that my failings are often a cause of unhappiness as they should be for anybody.

Also, I haven't tried mescaline or lsd. Mostly because I can't get my hands on any due to my lack of connections. Though mescaline is easier, I just haven't gotten around to it.

Also, I wouldn't say that these trips are bad because of that fear. As I look on the event of fear and what it requires in order to be overcome, it appears worthy. Though in the event of the fear, there is just fear, pure discomfort, you know what I mean. If you asked me if I would trip again during that state of fear I would say, Hell no. But after the trip ends I'm up for it again, and often I forget the state of fear. It's like trying to be afraid of dying when you aren't dying, you can think well if someone came up and shot me this might happen, but the reaction that actually occurs is quite different. You can look at a cliff and think, yeah I can jump off it, but once you're at the edge your frozen.


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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19151422 - 11/17/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Were your eyes closed during this experience, or are you moving about?

I think you may be having a hard time "letting go." On my last 5+ trip, there was a point, about 5 hours in, where I wanted it to end, and I started thinking about all the things I should be doing. This is when I was told to "let go," by whatever it was that was communicating it to me. It then went on to elaborate, sommehow without words, that Life is ust a series on conflicts and resolutions - It said "this is just what we do, so don't feel bad about it; it is how we learn and ultimately how we are able to experience Life more fully."

It kept showing me how the worst type of suffering is the suffering we endure worrying about suffering.

Either way, I hope you get beyond the "good vs bad" conflict. Maybe tell yourself you will only worry about the bad when it presents itself, and live for the good while you can. Remember, you are the universe experiencing itself...that ought to humble anyone.


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OfflineConfused2289
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: treid2]
    #19153351 - 11/18/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Last time the fear arose and euphoria. I was walking through the woods at night (maybe not the best setting). I was someone disappointed in the trip until this point, I thought I'll just go home and go to sleep. I didn't think this would be a very intense trip for some reason, I just didn't feel it yet.

Then I was walking up a hill to move out of the woods. And it became incredibly intense. I laid down on the ground and didn't move for a couple hours. Most of the time my eyes were closed. This is when I experienced both fear and euphoria. Euphoria seemed to be paid for in fear, back and forth like this.

I did have some very nice insights. I saw a person in a wireframe cage getting thrown around against its walls, and I felt an incredible sadness. I wished to open the cage for them, but when I began exploring this idea, I started realizing that I too was in a wireframe cage just larger. There were insight quickly lost when I asked the question is this life actually hard? As I explored the answer I found that it isn't. It seemed terribly easy to me, knowing what I needed to do, etc. This was a cause of euphoria. There were other things when I realized that I was alone, but realized further that I am with myself in which case I started thinking that I can be both a student and a teacher to myself. There was a love of self as trust then. I explored my physical body as a Buddhist might try during meditation, trying to analyse it and destroy the illusion of beauty or selfness, or permanence. This was a cause of more euphoria, then I spent a long time just repeating words to myself, like non-attachment, non-greed, disenchantment, dispassion. This was a cause of more euphoria.

After all of this I hit that state of fear. Much like I was going to die and be tortured, or perhaps kill and torture the world through my altered vision of the world, which depends so intimately upon my own mind. I broke out of it when I decided that I had a responsibility to create such an altered vision in a way that promotes the happiness of others, and non-suffering. After this I found the will to leave the woods and go back home and sleep.

In any case, I think recounting this trip has already smoothed out a bit of the edges for me. I don't know if this fear will ever become overcome in the way you explained to me. If it does ever happen it will happen on a much larger dose. Though I think that my realizations will be very different from yours. 

Thanks.


Edited by Confused2289 (11/18/13 10:28 AM)


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OfflineConfused2289
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19153549 - 11/18/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I like that you wrote about only worrying about the bad when it presents itself. I've found this to be a very useful thing. But maybe I ignore it while tripping because of the power of tripping. It seems to me that the power of a trip is the manifestation of potential bad.

I also tend to have a feeling that it is negligence or non-mindfulness in a trip that will create the bad. Like going off and doing something unthinkingly, perhaps letting go, then realizing that your mind is fucked. This arises out of confusion.

I've had some trips when I would have intense feelings of love for people. I also thought I became omnipotent. Those two combined made me start trying to help or explore how to help everyone. But as I let go into this vision I was eventually forced into powerlessness, confusion, regret, eternity, etc. The way I see it, it was my negligence in believing in my omnipotence and falling deeply in love, that led me to forget and eventually remember my powerlessness. Then it was as if I was being punished. Hard stuff.

But I'm sure anyone who trips has similar experiences. I'm just unwinding my thoughts and memories. Thanks for listening.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19153764 - 11/18/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I've encountered the same fear while not tripping and overcame it via letting go of my self.




No wonder it happens while tripping then. Kind of sounds like a panic attack, which is treatable. You need to fix that, whatever it takes, outside the trip.

Quote:

I've encountered the same fear while not tripping and overcame it via letting go of my self. The problem truly is that to let go to that extent means to let go of being a "good" person. Which was what I did when not tripping. It's like jumping off of a cliff. I seem to have run into this wall in a trip where the only way to move beyond is to remove my conception of right and wrong. Of course I cling to that which is right. Actually, I don't think tripping is the place to let go of right and wrong. That is for meditation a calmer state where such a thing doesn't cause confusion, erratic behavior, and or a case of "real" harmful action.




No offense, but your understanding of meditation is limiting you here. :shrug:  If you actually could let go during the trip you'd likely make more progress. :thumbup:  The effects you describe seem quite common in trips, trying to fight them is what fucks you over, as you're in a highly suggestible state when it occurs.

:peace:PS


Edited by PrimalSoup (11/18/13 11:59 AM)


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OfflineConfused2289
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #19156815 - 11/18/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The panic-attack like occurrence was found in meditation after many trips had taken their toll on my mind. It only occurred once outside of tripping and I see it as a result of tripping, not the other way around.

You are probably correct with regard to my understanding of meditation limiting me here and probably as well my understanding of Buddhism as well as my decision to agree with many things taught as a part of it. But I think limitations are not a necessarily bad thing. Perhaps I am looking to experience tripping with such limitations? Perhaps there is something to be gained while maintaining particular limitations that would be missed if limitations were not set.

Letting go doesn't necessarily have to happen within a boundless space.

And I am not suggesting that there has been no progress with regard to this fear. The fact that I'm tripping again is clear enough proof that there has been progress, since I was scared out of my mind of tripping about a year ago. Also the presence of euphoria at all is a strong sign of my progress, since last year euphoria was an extremely rare occurrence, now it is quite common. Other pleasant things have developed too, pleasure being one, and loss of body awareness being another.

But I think I'm finished writing for now.


Edited by Confused2289 (11/18/13 09:15 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19157147 - 11/18/13 10:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well, if you only had it the one time I'd concentrate more on dealing with it while tripping, letting go isn't that easy but it gets easier with practice.  Set and setting make a lot of difference in how trips go. :thumbup:

Regarding limitations though - really, you don't want that as part of your set for a trip.  Make it more about removing your barriers, boundaries, limitations.  Don't worry that you might have some sort of physical reaction, as what you expect can affect what you get.  Letting go is just letting go, there's no space involved, there's just the cessation of resistance.  :shrug:

:peace:PS


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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19159615 - 11/19/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Have you tried mescaline or lsd yet?




I saw that you answered this question "no". Honestly, I think that you should try one of these before reentering the realm of psilocin enriched enthogens (mushrooms). Honestly, I have never had a mushroom trip that was purely one sided...either fear or euphoria...they are always both. Set and setting can drastically change that balance but I always seem to experience both of these emotions.
Einstein said that you cannot solve a problem with the same mind that created it....I don't think mushrooms will enable you to solve your past mushroom induced conundrum. maybe these fungi have told you all they meant to....I really believe you should try at least cacti.....they are easily obtainable and, in most cases, legal in the US.
My final suggestion would be to just give up on all psychs for a extended period....if not, for good. If they keep shitting on you, why keep putting them in you? You seem extremely well educated....I am sure, more so than I...you have been able to record some peculiarities and experiences that many of us have felt but not put on paper....some of the scary stuff that we seem to forget as you mentioned. Just maybe ask yourself if you're ok with what you've already discovered and that maybe a normal sober mind and meditation may serve you better.


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Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

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OfflineConfused2289
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Thayendanegea]
    #19162012 - 11/19/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Baltimark, thanks for the advice. I'll take it into consideration the next time I feel the desire to trip.

Meditation is actually enough for me nowadays. I guess I'm just greedy in my use of mushrooms.


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OfflineJesus Cristo
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19163255 - 11/20/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have found this same thing with 4-aco-dmt. Especially when you said:

Quote:

Truly though the "bad" things about me are quite trivial at this point, trivial in view of the world. Even so, they aren't trivial to me, which is probably what matters.




It's almost as if each trip builds off the lessons you were supposed to have put in practice the previous trip. Each consecutive trip, ime, demands a higher level of good, and while it may seem really trivial, as you put it from an outside perspective, or even from within your own perspective, the molecule does not care. It demands more from you, more lessons, harsher lessons, maybe til you reach some kind of point of perfection.  It's trying to make a saint out of you in a way.

I think I won't get over this in regards to 4-aco-dmt or tryptamines in general until I manage to reach this level of perfection (which is perhaps the death of my self), but each new trip I take in an attempt to get there never gets to reach it due to my fear of the last one. This fear stops me from going "all the way" and so I carefully tread dosage wise, but at the same time treading carefully almost makes it worse since the molecule already knows I "passed" this level of awareness/lessons so to speak so every time I go to that same place it not only brings forth the same fear as the last one, but it makes it worse.  Almost like the molecule WANTS me to take that heroic dose by showing me that pussying around will only make it worse. 

And I have taken huge doses but every time I increase the dosage (this is spaced so far apart that tolerance wouldn't play a role) it takes me almost to the same place as the last one but with more force and more fear. It never gets me to the place I feel it's wanting me (that death of self) to get to even though I had the audacity to increase the dosage. It's almost as if it wants me to to get over this fear and of "treading carefully" by taking a dose that's ridiculously huge. But to do this would contradict the fact that each incrementally higher dose is only building upon the fear of the last one.

It's a fucking paradox.  But maybe that's the secret. By letting go to the point of death I'll realize there really was nothing to fear at all.  Maybe I've only made it worse by not realizing this and each time I go at it again (and don't take that "ridiculous dose") it's only making that ridicuolous dose I have to take, higher.  Like I'm setting it higher for the next time by not going for it this time.

Perhaps only by crossing over will I realize this.  Psychedelics work in absolutely crazy and seemingly impossible ways and maybe this is just an example of their strength and madness to help you heal. If I'm wrong though that would end BADLY lol.

I've decided to not take 4acodmt or any other tryptamine until I'm ready to plunge all the way (it's almost like I can't enjoy them even in low doses until I do so).  I am very curious in taking larger doses of LSD to perhaps gain some insight from the LSD perspective since it's one I'm fairly new to and it doesn't come with the ridiculous demand to be a saint.  In fact that's what I'll be doing this weekend :cool:. I highly recommend doing a phenethylamine like mescaline or DOC or LSD since they're vastly different than mushrooms or other trymptamines.  I think tryptamines are more for the real demanding healing work, which is necessary, but doing them excessively can cause this exaggerated sense of good and bad which has been my problem with them as I've come to realize and maybe it's the same for you.

Wow that was way more than I wanted to write but I hope it helps!  It's even helped me realize some things typing this so thanks for bringing this up


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Jesus Cristo]
    #19164731 - 11/20/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Almost like the molecule WANTS me to take that heroic dose by showing me that pussying around will only make it worse.




So true.  And

Quote:

It's almost as if each trip builds off the lessons you were supposed to have put in practice the previous trip.




It's exactly like that, with emphasis on the "supposed to have", for sure.  If you don't "human up" and get the work done before the next trip, it'll just throw it in your face again. :shrug:

I've spent very long periods where I didn't do mushrooms at all, just working on the shit I needed to work on before I would, somehow, be "good" enough to venture back into the psychedelic spaces once again.  IME there is NO other way, if you're at all serious about this stuff.  And if you're not serious about it, nothing will happen except the same old same old.

Now, if you back away, and never get really committed to just letting go completely (whatever shit you have to go through to get there) it will NEVER get better and you'll just end up deciding "oh well maybe psychedelics just aren't for me" and you'll just be another person that can't connect.  True of serious meditation as well, as numerous Buddhist texts will readily inform you. Better to have never even heard of it than leave it halfway.

:peace:PS


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Edited by PrimalSoup (11/20/13 02:37 PM)


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OfflineConfused2289
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #19176677 - 11/22/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

All right, well I've given it some thought. I decided I won't trip again until I've become semi-blameless and incapable of regretting my speech, actions, and thoughts within a considerable timeframe.

I'm not implying that I'll enter a state of ignorance, but rather I'll figure out how to live as I need to live and live that way, or I won't trip again.

Thanks for the input it's appreciated.


Edited by Confused2289 (11/22/13 09:37 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Fear, discomfort, and uncalmness [Re: Confused2289]
    #19176860 - 11/22/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Since tripping is essentially timeless, it doesn't really matter how long it takes to get there.  Good journeys. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


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